Portland Transit | TriMet/Mass Transit News

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I am still waiting for my hoover board

We Were Promised Jetpacks!

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I am not sure what you think is going to happen, but I think we will see a SW line open, another westside or two open, and a major expansion of the streetcar system happen before anyone even floats the idea of a subway line through downtown.

What do I think is going to happen in the next 20 years? SW line, definitely. A branch from Beaverton to Tigard/Tualatin? Possibly. Sunset to Tanasbourne? Also a possibility. Extension of the Orange to OC? Likely. Vancouver? Definitely. Powell/Division? Probably won't be MAX, but hopefully as close to true BRT as possible. Streetcars? At least a couple of new lines. Increasing service reliability and capacity of the entire MAX system? Most definitely.

That's all the subway is really, the means to increase capacity for the entire system. It's not some magical fantasy creature like unicorns and fire-breathing dragons. It's an infrastructure improvement that's done in forward thinking cities around the world.

Originally Posted by urbanlife

From the sounds of it from Trimet, due to the extremely high cost of a subway line, they would rather put in another surface street line through downtown than do a subway line. I highly doubt that is going to change in the next 15 years like you are thinking. I also think what I mentioned is a heck of a lot of rail projects that could happen in the next 20 years that doesn't leave room for a subway dream.

First of all, it's not Trimet that's making the decisions, it's Metro. Trimet just helps with the planning and implementation. And the bulk of the funding comes from the federal, state and local governments. Only a small percentage comes from Trimet and it comes from money specifically designated for capital improvements, not operating costs. So if Metro wants to green light a new subway through downtown, Trimet will fall in line even if reluctantly, as with Washington County's WES project.

Originally Posted by urbanlife

At this point, if you want to ride a subway light rail system, you will need to take a road trip up to Seattle because they will be the only northwest city with a subway line you are craving.

Subways in Portland are not going to happen unless we get lucky and they build a subway line under OHSU and Hillsdale, and even that I think will be a tough idea for Trimet to commit to, and that is just two stops that they would be doing.

That's funny, because I just rode the subway today from the Zoo to downtown. And I didn't have to go to Seattle or Vancouver to do it. You all are seeming to forget, we already have a subway. It's nothing new here. The only thing new will be the route through downtown and the additional subway stations. nothing radical or cutting edge about it, it's just simple infrastructure. Expensive? Absolutely. But there are ways to fund even the most expensive projects. Hell, we just spent over $2 billion to drill two huge tunnels for our sewer system. And ODOT spends 100's of millions of dollars annually. We are not a poor state, and Portland is not a small backwater town... we can do (have done) big projects here.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

It's clear that this is a very important issue for you (65MAX), but I don't think you're being realistic. Portland has too many other transit needs that would come first. And, yes, those could be built at the same time... but I really can't imagine Trimet devoting 3+ billion dollars* for a subway even if they had the money, since there are too many other needs the money could be spent on.

I say 3+ billion because they quoted 2.2 billion in 2009 dollars for a tunnel with one stop for all of downtown. Really, I see 3 billion as an unrealistic low figure.

Again, this is not personal. I'm not crusading for a subway downtown and have no stake in this one way or the other. I'm simply stating that if the MAX system keeps growing as expected, and the population and density of the region and central city keeps exploding as it is currently doing, then surface streets alone will not be able to handle the ever-increasing capacity demands. Regardless of what Trimet said 5 years ago (during a major recession and under intense scrutiny for reducing service hours). Again, Trimet is the cart, Metro is the horse.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

What do I think is going to happen in the next 20 years? SW line, definitely. A branch from Beaverton to Tigard/Tualatin? Possibly. Sunset to Tanasbourne? Also a possibility. Extension of the Orange to OC? Likely. Vancouver? Definitely. Powell/Division? Probably won't be MAX, but hopefully as close to true BRT as possible. Streetcars? At least a couple of new lines. Increasing service reliability and capacity of the entire MAX system? Most definitely.

That's all the subway is really, the means to increase capacity for the entire system. It's not some magical fantasy creature like unicorns and fire-breathing dragons. It's an infrastructure improvement that's done in forward thinking cities around the world.



First of all, it's not Trimet that's making the decisions, it's Metro. Trimet just helps with the planning and implementation. And the bulk of the funding comes from the federal, state and local governments. Only a small percentage comes from Trimet and it comes from money specifically designated for capital improvements, not operating costs. So if Metro wants to green light a new subway through downtown, Trimet will fall in line even if reluctantly, as with Washington County's WES project.



That's funny, because I just rode the subway today from the Zoo to downtown. And I didn't have to go to Seattle or Vancouver to do it. You all are seeming to forget, we already have a subway. It's nothing new here. The only thing new will be the route through downtown and the additional subway stations. nothing radical or cutting edge about it, it's just simple infrastructure. Expensive? Absolutely. But there are ways to fund even the most expensive projects. Hell, we just spent over $2 billion to drill two huge tunnels for our sewer system. And ODOT spends 100's of millions of dollars annually. We are not a poor state, and Portland is not a small backwater town... we can do (have done) big projects here.

We don't have a subway in Portland, we have a tunnel with one stop in it. If you have insider information about a subway line being planned for Portland, great, feel free to fill us in. If you don't have insider information, don't be shocked when 2035 rolls around and there is no subway through downtown because the metro had better things to spend the billions of dollars on over the next 20 years.

A subway isn't going to happen in Portland in the next 20 years.

[65MAX]

Wow, seriously? We don't have a subway in Portland?! How can you have a subway station with no subway?

http://themoscownews.com/infographic...189362664.html

I understand it'll take a long time to plan and build a downtown subway alignment, so service may not have started by 2035, but it'll definitely be UC by then.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

Wow, seriously? We don't have a subway in Portland?! How can you have a subway station with no subway?

http://themoscownews.com/infographic...189362664.html

I understand it'll take a long time to plan and build a downtown subway alignment, so service may not have started by 2035, but it'll definitely be UC by then.

Fine, we have a "subway" that has 1 station that runs through the West Hills because it would have been impossible to get light rail to the westside without building a tunnel.

You are doing some very wishful thinking if you think a subway line is going to be under construction by 2035 through downtown. We might get lucky to get a "subway" line through Marquam Hill that has a OHSU stop and if we are really lucky that line will have a Hillsdale "subway" stop as well, but I am a realist and I think that will be a stretch. When the SW line gets built, they will probably look at the cheapest route to take which will probably be running it along 99W or something like that.

Seeing that neither of us have any insider information on this, we will just have to wait and see who turns out to be right about this.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

Fine, we have a "subway" that has 1 station that runs through the West Hills because it would have been impossible to get light rail to the westside without building a tunnel.

You are doing some very wishful thinking if you think a subway line is going to be under construction by 2035 through downtown. We might get lucky to get a "subway" line through Marquam Hill that has a OHSU stop and if we are really lucky that line will have a Hillsdale "subway" stop as well, but I am a realist and I think that will be a stretch. When the SW line gets built, they will probably look at the cheapest route to take which will probably be running it along 99W or something like that.

No, it wasn't impossible to run MAX on the surface through the West Hills. In fact, there were a couple of surface options floated at the planning stages and they were deemed to be too disruptive and risky due to the steep slopes on both side of the Sunset. A condition, BTW, that's even worse along Barbur Blvd between Lair Hill and Burlingame. I can almost guarantee that widening Barbur Blvd along that stretch to accommodate MAX would be equally (or even more) expensive, and much, much more disruptive and dangerous, than a bored tunnel would be.

Originally Posted by urbanlife

Seeing that neither of us have any insider information on this, we will just have to wait and see who turns out to be right about this.

No, no crystal ball here. Just common sense and logic. I know, I know, not all public policy decisions use common sense or logic, but I think Portland is still more progressive than you're given her credit for.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

No, it wasn't impossible to run MAX on the surface through the West Hills. In fact, there were a couple of surface options floated at the planning stages and they were deemed to be too disruptive and risky due to the steep slopes on both side of the Sunset.

IIRC, it was actually put to a public vote of 1) no build, 2) tunnel or a couple surface options. Obviously, the tunnel option won.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

No, it wasn't impossible to run MAX on the surface through the West Hills. In fact, there were a couple of surface options floated at the planning stages and they were deemed to be too disruptive and risky due to the steep slopes on both side of the Sunset. A condition, BTW, that's even worse along Barbur Blvd between Lair Hill and Burlingame. I can almost guarantee that widening Barbur Blvd along that stretch to accommodate MAX would be equally (or even more) expensive, and much, much more disruptive and dangerous, than a bored tunnel would be.

In other words, Portland picked the cheapest option to get rail to the West Hills. I guess we will just have to wait and see if you get your subway tunnel or not through downtown. My vote is going to go with doubtful.

As for a SW line, you might be right about it being too expensive to run it along Barbur, which if that is the case, Portland will again choose the cheaper option to build the light rail line.

Running light rail on the surface through downtown is obviously the cheaper option than to run a tunnel through downtown. And when you start adding stops to a tunnel line through downtown, you begin to have the same issues that people here claim a tunnel will fix is that it takes too long for a train to get through downtown.

[dubu]

they could have made the tracks along the freeway then had streetcars take you to where ever.

[zilfondel]

This is the most ridiculous thread. This speculation on whether a subway will be built or not is just getting silly.

[PacificNW]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

This is the most ridiculous thread. This speculation on whether a subway will be built or not is just getting silly.

LOL......

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

This is the most ridiculous thread. This speculation on whether a subway will be built or not is just getting silly.

I agree.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

This is the most ridiculous thread. This speculation on whether a subway will be built or not is just getting silly.

Well, this is the Mass Transit thread. Where else would you discuss this? Or do you not want to discuss it at all?

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

In other words, Portland picked the cheapest option to get rail to the West Hills. I guess we will just have to wait and see if you get your subway tunnel or not through downtown. My vote is going to go with doubtful.

As for a SW line, you might be right about it being too expensive to run it along Barbur, which if that is the case, Portland will again choose the cheaper option to build the light rail line.

Running light rail on the surface through downtown is obviously the cheaper option than to run a tunnel through downtown. And when you start adding stops to a tunnel line through downtown, you begin to have the same issues that people here claim a tunnel will fix is that it takes too long for a train to get through downtown.

The tunnel option through the West Hills cost more than the Sunset surface options, but the tunnel was deemed the best option. So no, we don't always go with the cheapest option. There was actually room next to the Sunset but there were still risks of slides. There's NO room next to Barbur for most of its length between Lair Hill and Burlingame. So it's very likely that alignment will cost more than a tunnel.

As far as Downtown, a tunnel would have fewer stops (faster), no waiting for red lights and cross traffic (faster and more reliable), and capable of handling longer trains (higher capacity). So again, no, you would not have the same problems as the surface alignments. And I'm certain that Portland will go with the best options, not the cheapest the way Washington County did with WES. I think even you would agree that Portland isn't afraid to invest heavily in its transportation infrastructure.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

As far as Downtown, a tunnel would have fewer stops (faster), no waiting for red lights and cross traffic (faster and more reliable), and capable of handling longer trains (higher capacity). So again, no, you would not have the same problems as the surface alignments.

You keep saying this, but Trimet already stated the opposite, as I posted earlier in this thread. A subway through downtown isn't going to shave off as much time as you want to believe unless it has fewer stops than we currently have. And a subway would make the stops less convenient, not more. Both of those factors make the cost less justifiable, especially since Trimet has said that the street alignment will work into the future.

The analysis concluded that construction of a downtown bypass or tunnel does improve travel speed but at the expense of superior access to employment and households in downtown provided by an at-grade, convenient alignment. This analysis also concluded that the operational need to meet projected demand can be met with the existing surface alignments on Southwest Morrison and Yamhill streets and on the Portland Mall.

The total estimated capital cost to construct the downtown tunnel [with ONE stop for all of downtown!!!] as described is $2.2 billion in 2009 dollars. More stations could be built, but the travel time savings would be correspondingly less, diminishing returns for what would be one of the most expensive projects ever built in the region.

Add the fact that we just got a new transit bridge to take trains over the river, which makes it even harder to justify tunneling under the river for a subway.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

You keep saying this, but Trimet already stated the opposite, as I posted earlier in this thread. A subway through downtown isn't going to shave off as much time as you want to believe unless it has fewer stops than we currently have. And a subway would make the stops less convenient, not more. Both of those factors make the cost less justifiable, especially since Trimet has said that the street alignment will work into the future.

The "analysis" was based on a single station between Lloyd Center and Goose Hollow, taking 12 stations and combining them into one. So right off the bat, not a serious proposal. A serious proposal would have included 5-6 stations in that stretch and yes, of course it would take longer than if there was a single station. But it would take less than half the time of the current 12 stops to make that same trip. The current station spacing of 2, 3 or 4 blocks on the R/B line is what you would expect for a streetcar, not a regional rail system. If stations are built 6-8 blocks apart, access would not be adversely affected for the majority of people.

The capacity they talk about in their "analysis" was the additional trains for the Orange line. Not for the flood of riders that would come from the future SW line to Tigard/Tualatin, nor the tsunami of riders that will accompany a Yellow line extension to Vancouver. And that's not even accounting for the extension to OC or the (admittedly slim) possibility of a Powell MAX line. It's already crush capacity on the R/B during rush hour, and as I keep stating (but nobody seems to comprehend) it's Capacity, Capacity, Capacity. The time savings are just an added benefit to the subway alignment.

Look, I have no doubt that a third surface alignment will be one of the alternatives studied as one of the options for increasing capacity. They have to at least consider the idea. But any surface route will have negligible effect to that end. It'll just move the bottle neck to different streets and intersections and doesn't solve anything.

Originally Posted by 2oh1

Add the fact that we just got a new transit bridge to take trains over the river, which makes it even harder to justify tunneling under the river for a subway.

Who said anything about tunneling under the river south of Downtown? The Tilikum Crossing is perfectly suited for all future river crossings south of Downtown. The tunnel would be between Rose Quarter/Convention Center and Union Station under the river, replacing the Steel Bridge alignment. In fact, the tunnel doesn't even need to start at Lloyd Center. As previously stated, there are double block lengths along Holladay that can accommodate longer train stations and the cross traffic doesn't adversely affect operations until you get to MLK/Grand and especially the clusterf*** at the RQTC.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

The tunnel option through the West Hills cost more than the Sunset surface options, but the tunnel was deemed the best option. So no, we don't always go with the cheapest option. There was actually room next to the Sunset but there were still risks of slides. There's NO room next to Barbur for most of its length between Lair Hill and Burlingame. So it's very likely that alignment will cost more than a tunnel.

I don't know if you are correct or not because I didn't live here at the time of the Robertson tunnel. If you want to prove anything you are saying, you are welcome to it, but I don't really know where to look to verify anything you are saying.

The SW Line will more than likely tunnel through the OHSU portion, I just don't know if it will also tunnel under Hillsdale, but I do hope they do decide to do that.

As far as Downtown, a tunnel would have fewer stops (faster), no waiting for red lights and cross traffic (faster and more reliable), and capable of handling longer trains (higher capacity). So again, no, you would not have the same problems as the surface alignments. And I'm certain that Portland will go with the best options, not the cheapest the way Washington County did with WES. I think even you would agree that Portland isn't afraid to invest heavily in its transportation infrastructure.

How many stops would a downtown line have? The more stops that are added, the more the line costs and the slower the service would be, and in the end it would be shaving off a few minutes at most. Not really worth the billions it would cost.

Longer trains would mean that every station outside of downtown would need to be modified to handle longer trains....can we say more billions?

The MAX isn't just a Portland controlled rail system. I think Metro would go with the most cost effective system and a subway line for the sake of having a subway through downtown isn't the most cost effective thing to do.

I get that you really want a subway line in downtown Portland, but I just don't see it being a reality for you.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I don't know if you are correct or not because I didn't live here at the time of the Robertson tunnel. If you want to prove anything you are saying, you are welcome to it, but I don't really know where to look to verify anything you are saying.

Well, I've been a Portlander since 1976, so I think I know what I'm talking about. In fact, I still have old documents from the planning for the Banfield Light Rail Project, the name of the Gresham line before it was called MAX. And I've followed its history since then. But thanks for assuming I'm just making all of this s*** up.

Originally Posted by urbanlife

How many stops would a downtown line have? The more stops that are added, the more the line costs and the slower the service would be, and in the end it would be shaving off a few minutes at most. Not really worth the billions it would cost.

Longer trains would mean that every station outside of downtown would need to be modified to handle longer trains....can we say more billions?

The MAX isn't just a Portland controlled rail system. I think Metro would go with the most cost effective system and a subway line for the sake of having a subway through downtown isn't the most cost effective thing to do.

-Anywhere from 4-7 stops, depending on the alignment and the portal locations. But AGAIN, it's not the speed that's driving this, it's the additional capacity needed.

-Adding 200' of concrete to the station platforms outside of Downtown will cost nowhere near "billions". With the exception of the Washington Park station, the cost will actually be very minimal, $1-2 million per platform. My best estimate would be around $100 million total, not counting Washington Park. That one could be $10-20 million.

-Metro is not gonna go with the cheaper (surface) option if it doesn't achieve the goals set forth in their Purpose and Needs statement. They WILL go with the most cost effective subway alignment though. And you are correct about one thing, MAX is not Portland controlled. But if there was a government agency here that was more pro-light rail than Portland, it's Metro. And the two of them working together wields more power than any other local entity.

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I get that you really want a subway line in downtown Portland, but I just don't see it being a reality for you.

Dude, again, this has nothing to do with me. It doesn't matter what I want or don't want. This is not gonna be my personal subway.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

The tunnel would be between Rose Quarter/Convention Center and Union Station under the river, replacing the Steel Bridge alignment. In fact, the tunnel doesn't even need to start at Lloyd Center. As previously stated, there are double block lengths along Holladay that can accommodate longer train stations and the cross traffic doesn't adversely affect operations until you get to MLK/Grand and especially the clusterf*** at the RQTC.

Just one comment about this - given the geography over there (Lloyd District is much higher up than downtown) I doubt you could have a portal as close to the river as the RQTC. It would have to dive too steeply to actually get under the river. It's more likely that you'd have to either build a new bridge with a portal in Old Town or tunnel under the river with a portal near Lloyd. Not an engineer, just guessing, of course.

Adding 200' of concrete to the station platforms outside of Downtown will cost nowhere near "billions". With the exception of the Washington Park station, the cost will actually be very minimal, $1-2 million per platform. My best estimate would be around $100 million total, not counting Washington Park. That one could be $10-20 million.

Also, in many cases we're talking a bit more than just lengthening platforms; you'd have to rearrange the tracks to make room for longer platforms as well. And in some places, like along the Banfield, that might require major construction in order to expand the right of way to accommodate the changes. Not saying it would be impossible, but you could probably double your estimate.

I think 65MAX is correct; capacity is an issue that we'll have to address. It unavoidable. There might be cheaper ways to do it than a full-on subway (perhaps close some streets and build longer platforms at surface level in Old Town, with a shorter tunnel from Civic Stadium to 1st, for example), but if we don't do something, eventually, the system will grind to a halt. OTOH, throw in Google self-driving cars and whatnot into the mix, and who knows what'll happen.