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Old Posted Nov 1, 2017, 11:32 PM
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What Do States Have Against Cities, Anyway?

What Do States Have Against Cities, Anyway?


By Alan Ehrenhalt

NOVEMBER 2017

Read More: http://www.governing.com/columns/ass...es-cities.html

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For as long as there have been cities and state legislatures in this country, the cities have complained that the legislatures give them a raw deal. For most of the nation’s history, of course, they had an obvious reason to complain: Legislatures were malapportioned in favor of rural interests. Cities didn’t get anything close to the number of seats that population alone would have entitled them to.

- There’s plenty of evidence, however, that malapportionment wasn’t the whole problem. If it had been, it would have been solved by the U.S. Supreme Court’s “one person, one vote” mandate in the 1960s. But in the half-century since then, urban frustration at the hands of unfriendly legislatures has remained constant. Urban lawmakers, especially in the biggest states, continually lament having to endure second-class legislative treatment even on bills that pertain only to their cities.

- Why would this happen? In New York, they don’t have much doubt about why it happens: The state has one mammoth metropolis, and legislators from everywhere else in the state enjoy sticking it to the Big Apple whenever they get a chance. It explains why, a few years ago, an upstate legislator blocked a bill to allow traffic enforcement cameras even though there wouldn’t have been a single one outside New York City. It also explains why the city can’t even run its subway system without legislative approval.

- But you find similar frustrations in states with entirely different demographic balances. Take Pennsylvania, for example. In the legislature there, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh have long suffered not so much because the rest of the state dislikes them but because they dislike each other. Much of the dysfunction that has gripped Harrisburg in recent years is traceable to the inability of the state’s two biggest cities to reach common ground, or even work together. Something similar might be said about the inability of St. Louis and Kansas City to cooperate in the Missouri General Assembly.

- Then there are the states that have too many large cities for their own good. Florida is a highly urbanized state, and it’s reasonable to suppose that, given a little coordination, Miami, Orlando, Tampa-St. Petersburg and Jacksonville ought to be in a good position to make progress on an urban agenda. But it doesn’t seem to work that way. Legislators from the different cities tend to be isolated from each other. Ask a member from Miami what’s going on in Jacksonville and you might as well be asking about the latest news from Bulgaria. Fragmentation can be as much of a problem for urban interests as resentment against one metropolis or friction between two of them.

- Gerald Gamm of the University of Rochester and Thad Kousser of the University of California, San Diego, took on the monumental task of examining the fate of 1,736 pieces of legislation in 13 states over 120 years. All of the bills dealt with issues affecting one particular big city in a given state, so rural and suburban legislators had no practical reason to oppose them. Nevertheless, they did. Gamm and Kousser found that big-city bills were approved at a rate 15 to 20 percentage points lower than other pieces of legislation. “The great narrative in urban politics,” they concluded. “has been a story of unremitting hostility.”

- In making that judgment, the two were reinforcing the view held by a large group of scholars over more than a century. “Not only do state legislatures interfere with the fundamental rights and pettiest details of city affairs,” the political scientist Charles Beard wrote in 1912, “but their consent is required for some of the most insignificant undertakings of municipal government.” Gamm and Kousser demonstrate that Beard was right about the early 20th century, and he was right about the early 21st as well: Cities get cheated in legislative politics. And the more that a single city dominates its state, the more often it loses in the legislature. You might call that the Gotham Syndrome.

- The most obvious culprit would be partisanship. Over most of the past century, big cities have been Democratic and the hinterlands have been largely Republican. Voting against the city could be a simple way of punishing the opposing party. Surprisingly, Gamm and Kousser didn’t think this was much of a factor. They found that big-city bills had about the same chance of success whether they were sponsored by a member of the majority party or by someone from the minority. Ethnicity mattered more. When the city’s population was largely foreign born, its elected representatives suffered from a nativist reaction that helped to sink their local legislative agenda.

- On this reasoning, you would expect New York City to have lost in the legislature more often over the years than, say, Indianapolis, where the ethnic differences between city and state were minor. And, indeed, this seems to have been the case. But the factor that hurt cities most of all in their legislative efforts was one I never would have guessed. It was the sheer size of the urban delegations. The more seats a city had in a legislative chamber, the more conflicting opinions its representatives were likely to offer. And when legislators from the same city disagreed with each other, those from the rest of the state were inclined to dismiss their legislative goals altogether.

- Urban delegations could work harder in legislatures to build alliances with their suburban colleagues, especially those from inner suburbia where the challenges are increasingly similar to the ones cities face. Myron Orfield, a Democrat who used to represent Minneapolis in the state legislature, has been preaching this for a few decades now. But it has been very slow to develop, if it is developing at all. When Democratic Charlotte found itself bullied a couple of years ago by Republicans in the North Carolina General Assembly, the Charlotte suburbs weren’t any help. In fact, some of the members who led the anti-Charlotte blitz came from districts just outside the city limits.

.....
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  #2  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2017, 11:58 PM
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An Upstate legislator may get a chance here and there to make a 'fuck you' vote against the City but NYC clearly dominates the state government including the governorship as well as in the Senate and a majority of NY's House representation. Kirsten Gillibrand is the first Upstate senator I recall in a long time and she was appointed by a governor who lived in the Albany area and he only became so because his predecessor got busted with a hooker.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 12:33 AM
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Yeah, as much as I like to complain about conservative state legislatures holding back liberal cities, I think it goes both ways. Conservative areas are also subject to legislation passed by more liberal state imposed legislation. Its arguably a compromise that leaves no side truly happy.

The big difference is most of the country is composed of a mix of rural areas, small towns, suburbs, whereas only a small share of the population lives in true big city urban areas.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 12:42 AM
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Illinois falls into the NY state model, in that one giant metro area almost overwhelms the remainder of the state. Metro Chicago has 9.5 million residents, of which 8.6 million reside in Illinois. With the state's population at 12.8 million, that effectively puts 2/3 of the state's residents in the Chicago 6 county region.

Downstate is decidedly Republican, while Northeast Illinois is Democratic. Downstate politicians love to stick it to Chicago any chance they can get. They often complain that a disproportionate amount of state money goes to the city (obviously not true, as Chicagoland subsidizes the rest of the state) and always try to redistribute government funds to their local rural districts.

I honestly think it earns them points with their constituents when they can claim they successfully ended or disabled legislation that would have benefited the city.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 12:55 AM
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I said this in the Amazon HQ thread, but this is one of the spots where Boston has an advantage over some peer cities: Massachusetts = Boston. The CSA has more people than the state. 5/6th of Mass residents live within metro Boston, and the other 1/6th still live within a 2 hour drive of the city.

Beacon Hill / the Mass State House tends to support Boston without question, because as Boston goes, so goes Mass.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 3:57 AM
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I would imagine that it also helps that Boston is the capital of Massachusetts, no?
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 4:17 AM
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I would imagine that it also helps that Boston is the capital of Massachusetts, no?
Absolutely. There were thoughts about moving the State House west to Hadley (near Umass Amherst) around the time of the Civil War when Springfield was proportionally a lot larger than it is today. Good thing we dodged that bullet.

Rhode Island is often (correctly IMO) described as a city-state, but Mass isn't all that different.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 5:48 AM
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Yes, large cities that are also state capitals don't seem to have this issue to the same extent. It could be because even rural legislators have to contend with those urban issues when in session, or because the flow of people in/out of the state capital on government business tends to make that city more culturally reflective of the state as a whole. Indy, for example, is notably more conservative than most big cities, which is to say that it's moderate. Richmond, too.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
An Upstate legislator may get a chance here and there to make a 'fuck you' vote against the City but NYC clearly dominates the state government including the governorship as well as in the Senate and a majority of NY's House representation. Kirsten Gillibrand is the first Upstate senator I recall in a long time and she was appointed by a governor who lived in the Albany area and he only became so because his predecessor got busted with a hooker.
Kirsten Gillibrand has lived in Manhattan most of her adult life. She worked on Wall Street for many years. Don't see how she's more "Upstate" than Governor Cuomo, given they now both live on the Hudson north of NYC.

The NY Legislature and Governorship have traditionally been very anti-NYC, but it's more a failure of personalities and institutions than city vs country. Cuomo is in a running feud with DeBlasio, Giuliani was constantly feuding with Pataki. The NYC legislative contingent is too fractious to agree on much; yeah they're all Dems but they have very divergent interests.

Most Governors and top state leadership will be from NYC and environs simply because that's where most people live. NYC proper has nearly half the state population, and including surrounding suburbs you have more than 3/4 of the state population.

The strangest thing about the NYC area politically is that half of "NYC" isn't in NY State. This creates very odd situations in terms of regional planning. City-suburb coalitions don't really work, because the suburbs are mostly in other states. There are far more people living in NJ suburbs than in NY State suburbs.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Yes, large cities that are also state capitals don't seem to have this issue to the same extent. It could be because even rural legislators have to contend with those urban issues when in session, or because the flow of people in/out of the state capital on government business tends to make that city more culturally reflective of the state as a whole. Indy, for example, is notably more conservative than most big cities, which is to say that it's moderate. Richmond, too.
Tell that to Atlanta. Georgia loathes Atlanta, and ask any Georgian anywhere else in the state and they'll make it very plain to you: There is Georgia and there is Atlanta. Ask the right Atlantan and they'll confirm it: The worst thing about Atlanta is that once you leave it, you're back in Georgia. Meanwhile, even the other municipalities in the Atlanta metro area can't get along with Atlanta, or with each other.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 1:23 PM
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If Atlanta continues to sprawl then it can gobble up the rest of Georgia l.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 2:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Absolutely. There were thoughts about moving the State House west to Hadley (near Umass Amherst) around the time of the Civil War when Springfield was proportionally a lot larger than it is today. Good thing we dodged that bullet.

Rhode Island is often (correctly IMO) described as a city-state, but Mass isn't all that different.
Mass is land of contrasts. It's all wicked pissah Bahston, Wusteh, Newburyport and Cape Cod on the eastern end and then there's western Mass, the land that time forgot with Deerfield, Pittsfield, Holyoke and Springfield.

Agreed on RI, I always saw it as a metro area with State Troopers....

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Kirsten Gillibrand has lived in Manhattan most of her adult life. She worked on Wall Street for many years. Don't see how she's more "Upstate" than Governor Cuomo, given they now both live on the Hudson north of NYC.

The NY Legislature and Governorship have traditionally been very anti-NYC, but it's more a failure of personalities and institutions than city vs country. Cuomo is in a running feud with DeBlasio, Giuliani was constantly feuding with Pataki. The NYC legislative contingent is too fractious to agree on much; yeah they're all Dems but they have very divergent interests.

Most Governors and top state leadership will be from NYC and environs simply because that's where most people live. NYC proper has nearly half the state population, and including surrounding suburbs you have more than 3/4 of the state population.

The strangest thing about the NYC area politically is that half of "NYC" isn't in NY State. This creates very odd situations in terms of regional planning. City-suburb coalitions don't really work, because the suburbs are mostly in other states. There are far more people living in NJ suburbs than in NY State suburbs.
Gillibrand has deeper ties to Upstate that most other Senators despite a stint on Wall Street (born and raised in the Capital Region and clerked up there) but that further proves my point that you can't get into the NYS power structure without ties to NYC. Upstate likes to bitch about Downstate over things they know little about (like Upstate paying for NYC..umm...no) but they do have a valid argument about the state government and representation in DC being dominated by the city.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 2:39 PM
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black people and leftists live in cities

no need to over complicate things
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 2:40 PM
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black people and leftists live in cities
don't forget about all of those gays and illegals too.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 3:08 PM
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Illinois falls into the NY state model, in that one giant metro area almost overwhelms the remainder of the state. Metro Chicago has 9.5 million residents, of which 8.6 million reside in Illinois. With the state's population at 12.8 million, that effectively puts 2/3 of the state's residents in the Chicago 6 county region.

Downstate is decidedly Republican, while Northeast Illinois is Democratic. Downstate politicians love to stick it to Chicago any chance they can get. They often complain that a disproportionate amount of state money goes to the city (obviously not true, as Chicagoland subsidizes the rest of the state) and always try to redistribute government funds to their local rural districts.

I honestly think it earns them points with their constituents when they can claim they successfully ended or disabled legislation that would have benefited the city.
I don't think this makes Chicago like NYC. Nearly half of New York State's population lives within the five boroughs. I can't think of any major city in the country where nearly half of its state's population lives in the city itself. Another thing about NYC that gives its interests more leverage with the state is that the city is sandwiched between two different states. It's in the state of New York's interest to promote the city's interest as a stop gap for losing population and tax revenue to other states.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by left of center View Post

Downstate is decidedly Republican, while Northeast Illinois is Democratic. Downstate politicians love to stick it to Chicago any chance they can get. They often complain that a disproportionate amount of state money goes to the city (obviously not true, as Chicagoland subsidizes the rest of the state) and always try to redistribute government funds to their local rural districts.
How much of that disproportionate amount of money that goes to the downstaters is dedicated towards food production? I'm not sure about the state budget of IL, but at the federal level in 2014, the US sent $1.1 billion to Illinois to subsidize food production costs. That $1.1 billion probably went mainly to downstaters, but benefited everybody who ate food that year, especially poor people residing in northeast IL urban centers.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 3:31 PM
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I would say it's because of the model of bicameral government that we have that makes it seem like states "hate" cities. Each state gets two senators, regardless of population. This means that at one level of government, California can't out-vote Delaware, Wyoming, Vermont, etc. States largely modeled a lot of their governments on the Federal government. So you would see the same format at the state level. (It's also why we have a lot of state capitols that look like the US Capitol.) The system is specifically designed to give rural areas a voice along with the city, and provide a representative government.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenmore View Post
black people and leftists live in cities

no need to over complicate things
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
don't forget about all of those gays and illegals too.
You've both just described perfectly Birmingham's relationship with the state legislature in Montgomery.

Cases in point:

Birmingham Raises Minimum Wage and Alabama Takes it Away

Governor Bentley Releases Statement on Birmingham Becoming Sanctuary City
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 4:58 PM
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Texas has the same issue.

The conservative state government likes to preempt local ordinances and limit city's powers.

I think the truth is, the state doesn't want municipalities to be effective. It's bad for the conservative narrative if progressives were successful at doing something. Voters might start demanding those things elsewhere. Also its too empowering to non-conservative leaders for them to be able to do anything. You don't want the 'other side' to grow its talent. Today, mayor, tommorow senator. Better stop them. Power is reserved to our club, our channels of influence and our gatekeepers.

In a perfect world, local governments would do with their locally sourced tax money as they please and make ordinances as they please(to the extent that the constitution allows). Don't like taxes or rules? The solution is to move 500 yards over there, on the other side of the invisible line that represents the city's boundaries.
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Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 5:28 PM
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Originally Posted by left of center View Post
Illinois falls into the NY state model, in that one giant metro area almost overwhelms the remainder of the state. Metro Chicago has 9.5 million residents, of which 8.6 million reside in Illinois. With the state's population at 12.8 million, that effectively puts 2/3 of the state's residents in the Chicago 6 county region.

Downstate is decidedly Republican, while Northeast Illinois is Democratic. Downstate politicians love to stick it to Chicago any chance they can get. They often complain that a disproportionate amount of state money goes to the city (obviously not true, as Chicagoland subsidizes the rest of the state) and always try to redistribute government funds to their local rural districts.

I honestly think it earns them points with their constituents when they can claim they successfully ended or disabled legislation that would have benefited the city.
I don't know why I have to always point this out, but the most populated areas of illinois, outside of Chicago, are not decidedly Republican. They're either split, or decidedly democrat. The only areas that are decidedly republican are the least populated portions of the state. You wouldn't use the southern areas of DuPage or Will county to describe all of Chicagoland, so why would you pick and choose random areas of downstate to describe all of downstate Illinois? Peoria, Rockford, Bloomington, Champaign, Decatur, Springfield, the Quad Cities, and the most populated area (East St Louis area) are not decidedly Republican.

Last edited by Xing; Nov 2, 2017 at 5:41 PM.
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