Does Philadelphia have a problem with its economy (taxes, jobs, economy, etc)? - Page 4

10023 · #61 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 3:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by summersm343

LOL. BS statement right here. Plenty of great housing stock outside of Rittenhouse.

We may have different standards.

I would not consider this (as an example) to be great housing stock:
https://goo.gl/maps/tC99sWu4Rjz

You may disagree.

Jawnadelphia · #62 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 3:38 PM**

I don't know if 10023 has explored Philly much, but Fairmount, Society Hill, Old City, Queen Village, Passyunk Square - all around Passyunk Ave. is hipster, young professional central; Graduate Hospital, Northern Liberties, Fishtown, then the calmer, more spacey northwest hoods - East Falls, Chestnut Hill, Manayunk, etc....(and I haven't even mentioned West Philly neighborhoods yet) to say only Rittenhouse/Fitler Square has good housing stock is beyond wrong (more like asinine).

summersm343 · #63 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 3:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023

But financial firms aren't going to relocate in this way. Finance is an industry that depends on clustering, and it always has.

Philly has and should be trying to lure more biotech/pharma from suburban Jersey, or something like that.

South Philly is only relevant because it's got consistent urban built form (what younger people are looking for). It's just not very nice, but it's better than north Philly, which has a lot of abandonment. Otherwise we're just talking about suburbs, which are largely the same anywhere. You could make the same case for Cleveland or Detroit suburbs.

You seem to know nothing about Philadelphia, so why don't you stop talking like you do?

1. There are very few biotech/pharma companies in suburban Jersey. They are either located in the city of Philadelphia itself, or along the "202 Corridor" in Montgomery and Chester Counties.

2. You're negative comments about South Philadelphia are hilarious. Are there areas that are "not very nice?" Sure... but there are some really beautiful areas of South Philadelphia. Queen Village and Bella Vista are two of the nicest neighborhoods in the city. Graduate Hospital/Southwest Center City is also a very nice neighborhood. Hawthorne and Newbold are building themselves into very nice neighborhoods, and have great housing stock. Point Breeze is gentrifying pretty rapidly, and also has a nice, historic housing stock. Passyunk Square is beautiful. East Passyunk Crossing is very nice. Pennsport is modernizing quickly and becoming a very nice neighborhood. The Dickinson Narrows is gentrifying rapidly. Wharton is mostly lame housing stock, but a nice neighborhood. Same with Lower Moyamensing, Melrose and Whitman: nice neighborhoods with lame housing stock. West Passyunk has lame housing stock and is gentrifying. Girard Estates has beautiful housing stock. Marconi Plaza has a mix of nice and lame housing stock. Packer Park has a mix of nice and lame housing stock.

3. North Philadelphia is not all bad. Northern Liberties is a very nice neighborhood with great housing stock mixed with nice modern development. Fairmount has awesome housing stock, and so does Spring Garden. Poplar, Brewerytown, Francisville and Spring Arts all have awesome housing stock, and are modernizing quickly and filling in empty lots. Fishtown has a mix of great housing stock with modern new construction. Olde Richmond, East Kensington and Olde Kensington are all in the same boat: great old housing stock with new construction filling in vacant land. Port Richmond is starting to change. Templetown (Temple University area) has become a very nice neighborhood. Further north before you reach the suburbs, you have Ogontz/Belfield, Fern Rock, Olney, East Oak Lane and West Oak Lane, all of which are nice with nice housing stock.

4. What about West Philadelphia? University City is a super-nice area now, with a mix of mostly midrise and highrise mixed-use apartment buildings. Powelton Village is a beautiful neighborhood. Spruce Hill is one of the most beautiful, Victorian, tree-lined neighborhoods in the country. Woodland Terrace/Squirrel Hill/Clark Park are very nice. Cedar Park is very nice. Garden Court is very nice. Walnut Hill, Mantua and West Powelton are rapidly gentrifying. Further out, Overbrook, Overbrook Park, Overbrook Farms, Wynnefield, Belmont Village and Wynnefield Heights are all nice neighborhoods, with mostly nice housing stock.

5. What about Northwest Philadelphia? Chestnut Hill is one of the most beautiful neighborhoods in the country, period. Manayunk is rapidly modernizing. East Falls is a very nice neighborhood with great housing stock. Roxborough is nice. Andorra is nice although mostly suburban. East Mount Airy and West Mount Airy are beautiful neighborhoods with great housing stock. Germantown/Penn Knox/Morton are mostly nice, with great housing stock. Cedarbrook and Stenton are so-so.

6. What about Northeast Philadelphia? Tacony, Mayfair, Holmesburg, Lexington Park, Rhawnhurst, Lawndale, Fox Chase and Burholme are all so-so on housing stock. But nice areas. Have to agree that "Upper" Northeast Philadelphia neighborhoods (everything north of Pennypack Park) is mostly suburban.

7. Most of Southwest Philadelphia sucks.

8. Disagree that Philadelphia's suburbs are the same as everywhere. Places like Ardmore, Bryn Mawr, Jenkintown, Conshohocken, Phoenixville, Wayne, Upper Darby/Drexel Hill, Media, Kennett Square, West Chester, Doylestown, Newtown, New Hope, Collingswood, Haddonfield, etc. are not your average, run-of-the-mill suburbs that you can just find anywhere.

Jawnadelphia · #64 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 3:51 PM**

^Amen Summers!

mja · #65 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 4:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023

We may have different standards.

I would not consider this (as an example) to be great housing stock:
https://goo.gl/maps/tC99sWu4Rjz

You may disagree.

Wait, that's 21st & Fitzwater! That's Graduate Hospital, aka the neighborhood that experienced the single most gentrification over the last decade and a half.

There's currently a 1900 sq. ft. 'fixer-upper' asking $525K on that block. There's also a mediocre-at-best 14-year old house asking $724K. A block east, there's a shell asking $499K - sight unseen only!

http://www.movoto.com/philadelphia-p...h/for-sale/use

https://www.redfin.com/PA/Philadelph.../home/38803612

http://www.movoto.com/philadelphia-p...3vlh/for-sale/

Crawford · #66 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 4:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by emathias

But Cleveland isn't commuting distance to Manhattan.

Neither is the Philly Main Line, really. I mean, it's technically possible, but a LONG commute, and how many professionals would willingly subject themselves to such a commute?

The Philly suburbs that are within reasonable commuting distance of NYC are in Bucks and Burlington County, but those suburbs are more blue collar, generally, and already get a fair amount of commuters north towards NYC.

summersm343 · #67 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 4:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023

We may have different standards.

I would not consider this (as an example) to be great housing stock:
https://goo.gl/maps/tC99sWu4Rjz

You may disagree.

jtown,man · #68 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 4:42 PM**

So I probably won't qualify as a professional but me and the wife make just under 100k together and are both applying for positions in Philadelphia. We most certainly are looking at south Philadelphia for many reasons:

1. Proximity to center city.
2. Decent transport
3. Walking and biking to most of our needs
4. This is important, for people who are middle class, we can find a really cute two bedroom rowhouse for around 250k. That's a steal in any city, but you add in your in such a great urban city, a steal.

Sure, a lot of the areas lack trees and crime is still an issue citywide, but for this average american, philly, and south philly in particular, is an incredible deal.

summersm343 · #69 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 4:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Neither is the Philly Main Line, really. I mean, it's technically possible, but a LONG commute, and how many professionals would willingly subject themselves to such a commute?

The Philly suburbs that are within reasonable commuting distance of NYC are in Bucks and Burlington County, but those suburbs are more blue collar, generally, and already get a fair amount of commuters north towards NYC.

Why the hell are we talking about Philly suburbs relative to their commuting distance from NYC? What on earth does NYC have to do with this discussion?

Plenty of jobs for professionals in Philadelphia and it's surrounding suburbs.

A place like Ardmore, Phoenixville, Conshohocken, Collingswood, Media, West Chester, etc. offer nice quasi-urban lifestyles for a professional working in the suburbs.

mja · #70 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 4:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by summersm343

So you don't like early-1900s built rowhomes?

I mean, his whole contention was that sections of the city are gentrification-proof because of substandard housing stock. As his example of this, he then literally picks a block in Graduate Hospital, a neighborhood that has gentrified over the last 15 years to the point where it's not even touchable for those with household incomes under 6 figures and as-is sight-unseen shells are asking 500K.

summersm343 · #71 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 5:01 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mja

I mean, his whole contention was that sections of the city are gentrification-proof because of substandard housing stock. As his example of this, he then literally picks a block in Graduate Hospital, a neighborhood that has gentrified over the last 15 years to the point where it's not even touchable for those with with household incomes under 6 figures and as-is sight-unseen shells are asking 500K.

Yep. He clearly has no idea what he's talking about.

summersm343 · #72 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 5:07 PM**

Oh man, these luxury highrise condos in Washington Square West are really sub-standard housing options. Truly not up to the standards of 10023 or Crawford. There are just no good housing options for us folk here in Philadelphia!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ8lgjkA...yscrapersunset

Crawford · #73 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 5:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by TallCoolOne

I don't know if 10023 has explored Philly much, but Fairmount, Society Hill, Old City, Queen Village, Passyunk Square - all around Passyunk Ave. is hipster, young professional central; Graduate Hospital, Northern Liberties, Fishtown, then the calmer, more spacey northwest hoods - East Falls, Chestnut Hill, Manayunk, etc....(and I haven't even mentioned West Philly neighborhoods yet) to say only Rittenhouse/Fitler Square has good housing stock is beyond wrong (more like asinine).

Those are all core neighborhoods, all gentrified, and have nothing to do with the discussion.

The issue is whether the tiny rowhouses with the low ceilings and tiny rooms on typical South/West/North Philly streets are ripe for gentrification. I'm guessing no.

Crawford · #74 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 5:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by summersm343

Why the hell are we talking about Philly suburbs relative to their commuting distance from NYC? What on earth does NYC have to do with this discussion?

Read the thread before commenting. I was responding to someone that had implied the Main Line was within commuting distance of Manhattan.

mja · #75 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 5:38 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Those are all core neighborhoods, all gentrified, and have nothing to do with the discussion.

The issue is whether the tiny rowhouses with the low ceilings and tiny rooms on typical South/West/North Philly streets are ripe for gentrification. I'm guessing no.

It's already happening, and really has been for 5+ years.

This house in Point Breeze sold for 36K 5 years ago. It's now asking 295K.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...11_rect/18_zm/

Or how about this house that sold for 108K in JUNE. It's been totally renovated and asking is $340K.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...11_rect/18_zm/

Another reno - sold for $120K last November, now asking $300K.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...51_rect/16_zm/

Then you got new construction going for $575K.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...51_rect/16_zm/

And there's tons more and that's just literally in Point Breeze, a neighborhood that 10 years ago was impossible to imagine gentrifying, and which is still one of the highest crime areas in South Philly.

Crawford · #76 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 5:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mja

It's already happening, and really has been for 5+ years.

This house in Point Breeze sold for 36K 5 years ago. It's now asking 295K.

That isn't gentrification. That's a previously worthless neighborhood coming back to semi-normality.

We're talking about professionals and gentrification. 295k asking prices in a near-ghetto aren't attracting professionals.

I mean, Bensonhurst, Brooklyn has zero gentrification, will never, ever have gentrification, and I don't think you can get a rowhouse for less than 900k.

summersm343 · #77 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 5:48 PM**

There's just no investment coming to our poor old city! Whatever will we do?!

South Philly - Broad and Washington

Fishtown

Olde Kensington

East Falls

Templetown

Girard Estates

Northern Liberties

Old City

Cedar Park

Brewerytown

Walnut Hill

Loft District - area is being transformed. Rail line if the foreground is being turned into a park similar to the Highline in Manhattan

Market East

Logan Square

Museum District

Templtown

Washington Square West

Loft District

Society Hill

Washington Square West

Spring Arts

Spring Garden

University City

Old City

University City

There's just no investment coming to our poor old city outside of Rittenhouse!

summersm343 · #78 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 6:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Those are all core neighborhoods, all gentrified, and have nothing to do with the discussion.

The issue is whether the tiny rowhouses with the low ceilings and tiny rooms on typical South/West/North Philly streets are ripe for gentrification. I'm guessing no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

That isn't gentrification. That's a previously worthless neighborhood coming back to semi-normality.

We're talking about professionals and gentrification. 295k asking prices in a near-ghetto aren't attracting professionals.

I mean, Bensonhurst, Brooklyn has zero gentrification, will never, ever have gentrification, and I don't think you can get a rowhouse for less than 900k.

Whether you consider these possible to be gentrified has no bearing on real life, because a lot of these neighborhoods are gentrifying already, and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

A neighborhood coming back from being "worthless" as you so disgustingly describe it, and being revitalized and invested in is actually the EXACT definition of gentrification.

Graduate Hospital - Gentrified
Hawthorne - Gentrified
Bella Vista - Gentrified
Queen Village - Gentrified
Pennsport - Gentrifying
Dickinson Narrows - Gentrifying
Passyunk Square - Gentrified
East Passyunk Crossing - Gentrified
Newbold - Gentrifying
Point Breeze - Gentrifying
Really the only neighborhood in South Philadelphia that is not nice, gentrified or gentrifying is Grays Ferry.

University City - Gentrified
Spruce Hill - Gentrified
Walnut Hill - Gentrifying
Clark Park/Squirrel Hill - Gentrified
Cedar Park - Gentrifying
Powelton Village - Gentrified
Mantua - Gentrifying
West Powelton - Gentrifying

Northern Liberties - Gentrified
Spring Garden - Gentrified
Brewerytown - Gentrifying
Francisville - Gentrifying
Poplar - Gentrifying
Spring Arts - Gentrifying
Fishtown - Gentrifying
East Kensington - Gentrifying
Olde Richmond - Gentrifying
Port Richmond - Gentrifying
Templetown - Gentrifying.

You act like everywhere needs to be gentrified... there are plenty of stable middle class and upper middle to upper class areas in Philadelphia as well.

Packer Park
Marconi Plaza
Girard Estates
Melrose
Lower Moyamensing
Whitman
Overbrook
Overbrook Park
Overbrook Farms
Wynnefield
Belmont Village
Wynnefield Heights
Fern Rock
Olney
East Oak Lane
West Oak Lane
Belfield
Stenton
Overbrook
Germantown/Penn Knox/Morton
East Falls
Wissahickon
Manayunk
Roxborough
Andorra
West Mount Airy
East Mount Airy
Chestnut Hill
Tacony
Mayfair
Holmesburg
Lexington Park
Rhawnhurst
Lawndale
Fox Chase
Burholme
Upper Northeast Philladelphia - North of Pennypack park like Somerton, Bustleton, Torresdale, Millbrook, Crestmont Farms, etc.

mja · #79 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 6:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

That isn't gentrification. That's a previously worthless neighborhood coming back to semi-normality.

We're talking about professionals and gentrification. 295k asking prices in a near-ghetto aren't attracting professionals.

I mean, Bensonhurst, Brooklyn has zero gentrification, will never, ever have gentrification, and I don't think you can get a rowhouse for less than 900k.

You have no idea of what you're talking about and NYC prices have not one iota of relevance in this discussion.

Google Point Breeze gentrification. You'll have hours worth of reading material.

PhilliesPhan · #80 Posted **Oct 15, 2017, 6:23 PM**

This is a question that is going to be answered differently, depending on who is answering the question. In my experience, older Philadelphians typically aren't going to have a favorable view of Philly's economy. This especially becomes true when one talks to Philadelphians who live in the Great Northeast, have moved out of the city (ESPECIALLY to Delco), and/or live in poorer neighborhoods. Younger Philadelphians, however, tend to have a MUCH brighter outlook on how the city is progressing. I was born in 1995, grew up in a poor West Philly neighborhood called Mill Creek before Philly started gaining its newfound recognition, and have personally witnessed my city rise from the pile of ashes that it once was. The Philly of 2017 looks vastly different than the Philly of 2007, or even as recently as 2012.

Putting the opinions of both to the side, there is factual quantitative data to definitively conclude that Philly's economy is on the right track. Philly's rate of job growth has been outpacing the national rate for a while now. In terms of percentages, Philly had a higher growth rate than New York and San Francisco. In a recently published article, Philly is the #3 city for startups, falling behind only Boston and San Francisco. The numbers prove that, although Philly is still a very affordable city, rents for office and retail space have been climbing, indicating healthy levels of demand. Speaking of office demand and jobs, it is important to note that job growth in the city has also been outpacing the metro area; in fact, we have recently surpassed our pre-recession job level while other counties have not.

Qualitatively, all one who is look around. During this boom cycle, West, North, South, and Center City all received their new tallest buildings in FMC Tower, The Alexander, CHOP Tower, and Comcast Technology Center, respectively. In the neighborhoods, construction is occurring in places where people wouldn't have dared to step foot when I was a kid. Who would have thought that parts of Kensington would be on fire? Who would have thought that people would be buying homes west of 52nd Street, let alone 40th Street? Point Breeze is Philadelphia's hottest neighborhood, which would have been unimaginable 10 years ago! I live in the Templetown neighborhood of North Philly while attending Temple University at the moment. At the moment, three highrises are undergoing site prep (on two sites). If one needs to see how much my neighborhood has changed, do a Google Earth tour and take it back to 2007.

Also, to address a statement that I saw on previous pages: the prospect of added taxes is not a major deterrent towards young people moving to the city. As a college senior who intends to stay in the city for the long-haul, I recognize that the additional taxes that I will end up paying is a reasonable premium for living in such an amazing city. I would rather pay those taxes than move to the suburbs and be bored to death, and many other young people (at least at my college) feel the exact same way.