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  #1  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2012, 8:41 PM
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Why is the U.S. wealthier than Europe? Give credit to its cities. (Report)

Why is the U.S. wealthier than Europe? Give credit to its cities.


04/17/2012

By Brad Plumer

Read More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...OfOT_blog.html

Quote:
.....

The United States, it turns out, actually derives more economic benefit from its cities than any other country on the planet. Roughly 83 percent of America’s GDP came from its “large cities,” defined as cities with a population of 150,000 or more. By contrast, China got 78 percent of its GDP from large cities and Western Europe got a surprisingly small 65 percent of its GDP from its large urban areas.

- The report’s authors argue that the city gap between the United States and Europe account for about three-quarters of the difference in per capita GDP between the two. In other words, the United States appears to be wealthier than Europe because it has a greater share of its population living in large, productive cities. All told, some 80 percent of Americans live in large cities, versus just 58 percent of Western Europeans. Why the difference? The McKinsey report explains language barriers in Europe have made migration from rural to urban areas somewhat slower on that continent. Also, various E.U. programs have “transferred funds from richer metropolitan regions in its member states to poor rural ones.” Government spending in Europe has helped limit urban migration.

- That’s noteworthy in light of the fact that various commentators have often complained that the U.S. Congress has a rural bias (in part because of the way the Senate is structured). David Leonhardt, for instance, has argued that, in the United States, “suburbs and rural areas receive vastly more per-person federal largesse than cities.” There’s some debate over Leonhardt’s numbers, but either way, the McKinsey report suggests that Western Europe has a much larger anti-city bias in its policies — and is somewhat poorer as a result.

- In 2025, the report predicts, about 600 cities around the globe will account for 60 percent of the world’s GDP. And one in seven of those will be located in the United States, with New York and Los Angeles number one and number six, respectively. (China, meanwhile, will be catching up fast.) “The United States has a broader base of large cities than any other region,” the report concludes, “and that explains their greater economic clout.”

....



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  #2  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2012, 8:52 PM
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What a nice little ego stroke for Americans.

The U.S. is "wealthier" because it has the richest people on earth in Hollywood, Manhattan, Cambridge, Washington, and the Silicon Valley. The big bucks are made largely in the U.S.A. That's all there is to it. However, if you remove that top 3% of overachievers, the U.S. looks a lot more impoverished compared to other developed nations.

Also, when will people get comparing one nation to a geographical region of many nations that have varying laws and cultures is not apples to apples?
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  #3  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2012, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ue View Post
What a nice little ego stroke for Americans.

The U.S. is "wealthier" because it has the richest people on earth in Hollywood, Manhattan, Cambridge, Washington, and the Silicon Valley. The big bucks are made largely in the U.S.A. That's all there is to it. However, if you remove that top 3% of overachievers, the U.S. looks a lot more impoverished compared to other developed nations.

Also, when will people get comparing one nation to a geographical region of many nations that have varying laws and cultures is not apples to apples?
this place is the land of milk and honey if you're loaded but you're SOL if you're in the middle class.
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Old Posted Apr 18, 2012, 10:00 PM
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All I can say to this is: No shit. As I've been going on about for a long time, the United States is so polarized that parts of it are essentially 2nd or 3rd world while other parts are like 1/2th world. This polaration is noticiable when comparing cities to rural areas, but even more shockingly exists within cities where you can go from some of the richest places on earth to some of the poorest places in the United States in a matter of blocks.

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Originally Posted by ue View Post
Also, when will people get comparing one nation to a geographical region of many nations that have varying laws and cultures is not apples to apples?
When will people stop comparing the third largest country on earth to nations that are a fraction of its size that have almost nothing in common with it from a demographic perspective?
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Old Posted Apr 19, 2012, 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ue View Post
What a nice little ego stroke for Americans.

The U.S. is "wealthier" because it has the richest people on earth in Hollywood, Manhattan, Cambridge, Washington, and the Silicon Valley. The big bucks are made largely in the U.S.A. That's all there is to it. However, if you remove that top 3% of overachievers, the U.S. looks a lot more impoverished compared to other developed nations.

Also, when will people get comparing one nation to a geographical region of many nations that have varying laws and cultures is not apples to apples?
When will people stop believing that the U.S. is completely homogeneous?

Sure, we have one currency, one federal system, and mostly the same language, but I think in many ways California and, say, Alabama, are more different than France and Spain or even France and Sweden.
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Old Posted Apr 19, 2012, 6:07 PM
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
When will people stop believing that the U.S. is completely homogeneous?

Sure, we have one currency, one federal system, and mostly the same language, but I thi in many ways California and, say, Alabama, are more different than France and Spain or even France and Sweden.
Heh, working class and country style deep southern and Spanglish are not compatable.
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  #7  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2012, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
When will people stop believing that the U.S. is completely homogeneous?

Sure, we have one currency, one federal system, and mostly the same language, but I think in many ways California and, say, Alabama, are more different than France and Spain or even France and Sweden.
I don't know anybody who thinks the U.S. is homogenous.

With a nation as geographically expansive as the U.S., there are going to be regionalisms which lead to differences between Alabama and California. A place like Denmark is too small for this, but it isn't like this doesn't occur in other European nations. Scotland and England could easily be two countries. Bavaria is very distinct from Hamburg and Berlin. And what about Walloon and Flanders? Or Paris and the South?

The point is there is still a unifying "American" culture, regardless of if you're in suburban Montgomery or on Sunset in L.A. Germany has a unifying culture that is distinct from Poland, though.

Also, lumping Europe, a vast swath of very distinct official nations (not subnational entities), together like the article does and you appear to have no problem with is doing the same thing as your claim of it seeming to make the U.S. "homogenous." Homogenous isn't the term I'd use though. Maybe a single, unified, national identity and culture (with subcultures within?). Europe isn't one country and has much more distinctions and variations than the U.S. (which has a lot of that in it's own right). I'd say Belarus is a lot more different from France than Alabama is from Cali.
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  #8  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2012, 6:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ue View Post
Also, when will people get comparing one nation to a geographical region of many nations that have varying laws and cultures is not apples to apples?
But comparing one nation to one much smaller nation is also not apples to apples.

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The point is there is still a unifying "American" culture, regardless of if you're in suburban Montgomery or on Sunset in L.A. Germany has a unifying culture that is distinct from Poland, though.
As I have before on this forum, I dispute this statement. Germany and Poland perhaps - Poland until fairly recently was behind the Iron Curtain - but I don't find Germany and the Netherlands, Belgium and France, or even France and Germany to be any more different, in many respects, than the Deep South and New England.


And more to the point, this article/study isn't about culture, it's about economies. The EU has a fairly open economy, and Western Europe shares a common urban history. In fact, I would expect the various countries of Western Europe to be much more similar in terms of the percentage of the economy driven by large cities than the various U.S. states are.
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Old Posted Apr 20, 2012, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post

As I have before on this forum, I dispute this statement. Germany and Poland perhaps - Poland until fairly recently was behind the Iron Curtain - but I don't find Germany and the Netherlands, Belgium and France, or even France and Germany to be any more different, in many respects, than the Deep South and New England.
Well, if some of the most closely connected neighboring countries in Europe are only as similar to each other as what are perhaps the two most different regions in the U.S., doesn't that mean that Europe as a whole is a lot more diverse than the U.S.? (I disagree about France and Germany, btw).
There's simply so much history, culture, trends etc. that's defined by national and linguistic borders in Europe. America on the other hand has a very strongly unifying national culture and identity.

Europe is probably the most closely intertwined group of nations there is in the world, but a country it is not. Sometimes it makes sense to compare Western Europe or the EU as a whole to the U.S, but often it doesn't. It might seem like cherry picking, but that's because Europe is very integrated in some, but not at all in other areas. [/OT]

Last edited by Miu; Apr 20, 2012 at 5:06 PM.
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Old Posted Apr 20, 2012, 5:03 PM
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I generally agree with the Europeans on this one, and think that Europe is far, far, less uniform than the U.S.

I mean, there's a huge difference between the German and French mindset, to say nothing of the Irish & Slovanian mindset.

I'm most familiar with Germany, and there are wild differences between regions. You can drive 30km, and be in a totally different region, with different religion, dialect, cultural traditions and ethnic background. Swabians have little to do with Rhinelanders, who have little to do with Northerners.

If anything, I would say that Germany alone has bigger differences than the U.S. Just East vs. West is huge for anyone older than 20.

And my sense is that Italy has far more regional distinctions. Ever been to Basilicata, in Southern Italy? That province is traditionally so isolated as to be amazingly distinct. They didn't even have "conventional" Christianity until after WWII, having used this unique hybrid of traditional religions and Catholicism until relatively recently.
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Old Posted Apr 20, 2012, 5:39 PM
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I'm most familiar with Germany, and there are wild differences between regions. You can drive 30km, and be in a totally different region, with different religion, dialect, cultural traditions and ethnic background. Swabians have little to do with Rhinelanders, who have little to do with Northerners.
The classic Bavarian insult is to call somebody a Prussian.
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  #12  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2012, 10:10 PM
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^ Country vs country or country vs continent/geopolitical region? Hmmm.
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Old Posted Apr 18, 2012, 11:06 PM
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The fundamental flaw this report makes is US cities = metro areas, European cities = city limits. It's the same "Seattle is bigger than Rome" bullshit I've been railing against.

The report states that 80% of Americans live in "large cities" (vs 58% of Western Europeans) and that the US has 259 "large cities" (vs WE just 186).
It states that New York is the world's second largest city (more like 11th) and will remain so until after 2025 and that LA will rise from 6th largest city in the world to 4th.

http://www.mckinsey.com/Insights/MGI...global_economy
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Old Posted Apr 18, 2012, 11:22 PM
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Okay, I'm really getting sick of this stupid urban population contest. Who really gives a damn at the end of the day? It's just numbers.
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Old Posted Apr 19, 2012, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by SHiRO View Post
The fundamental flaw this report makes is US cities = metro areas, European cities = city limits. It's the same "Seattle is bigger than Rome" bullshit I've been railing against.

The report states that 80% of Americans live in "large cities" (vs 58% of Western Europeans) and that the US has 259 "large cities" (vs WE just 186).
It states that New York is the world's second largest city (more like 11th) and will remain so until after 2025 and that LA will rise from 6th largest city in the world to 4th.


http://www.mckinsey.com/Insights/MGI...global_economy
I could not find how they measured the European Cities. What page did they state it on? Also the NYC as second largest was referring to GDP I believe.
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Old Posted Apr 19, 2012, 1:12 AM
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I could not find how they measured the European Cities.
Me neither. This report is severly lacking. But it's clear that they're not comparing like for like as Western Europe has way more 150,000+ cities (metro) than just 186. Proof lies in that number. They do state that the 259 US cities of 150,000+ are MSA.

Quote:
Also the NYC as second largest was referring to GDP I believe.
"2nd largest city in the world in 2025 will remain New York...4th largest city in 2025 will be Los Angeles"

They're not talking about GDP...
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Old Posted Apr 20, 2012, 6:26 PM
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Originally Posted by SHiRO View Post
Me neither. This report is severly lacking. But it's clear that they're not comparing like for like as Western Europe has way more 150,000+ cities (metro) than just 186. Proof lies in that number. They do state that the 259 US cities of 150,000+ are MSA.


"2nd largest city in the world in 2025 will remain New York...4th largest city in 2025 will be Los Angeles"

They're not talking about GDP...
Wrong - They are absolutely referring to GDP.

  • Of the 600 cities that MGI expects will account for 60 percent of global GDP growth by 2025, nearly 1 in 7 is in the United States.
  • Today, the metropolitan areas of New York and Los Angeles are the world’s second and sixth largest, respectively, by GDP.

Please read the report.
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Old Posted Apr 20, 2012, 6:42 PM
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Old Posted Apr 20, 2012, 7:00 PM
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Wrong - They are absolutely referring to GDP.

  • Of the 600 cities that MGI expects will account for 60 percent of global GDP growth by 2025, nearly 1 in 7 is in the United States.
  • Today, the metropolitan areas of New York and Los Angeles are the world’s second and sixth largest, respectively, by GDP.

Please read the report.
That's not what I was quoting. Believe me, I read the report. The line I quoted didn't say anything about GDP, only way down in the report it was repeated and elaborated on (as I read later).

If I write in bold and caps THE SKY IS PINK on the cover of a report and 500 pages down I add (if you look at it through pink glasses)...who is trying to bullshit who?


Not at all clear, language used ("largest") points to it referring to population. Nothing to quantify this statement untill dozens of pages down...
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Old Posted Apr 19, 2012, 4:26 AM
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Originally Posted by SHiRO View Post
The fundamental flaw this report makes is US cities = metro areas, European cities = city limits. It's the same "Seattle is bigger than Rome" bullshit I've been railing against.

The report states that 80% of Americans live in "large cities" (vs 58% of Western Europeans) and that the US has 259 "large cities" (vs WE just 186).
It states that New York is the world's second largest city (more like 11th) and will remain so until after 2025 and that LA will rise from 6th largest city in the world to 4th.

http://www.mckinsey.com/Insights/MGI...global_economy
that makes sense to me. if you live in a fairly rural part within the city limits of a suburb of chicago, you live in an urban area.
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