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  #13021  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 5:26 PM
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Finally, the final design phase is beginning for Park at Penn’s Landing

https://whyy.org/articles/finally-th...penns-landing/

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It’s really happening, that much-talked-about park and public space that will connect the city to its Delaware River waterfront from Chestnut Street to Walnut Street and over Interstate 95, complete with gardens, play areas, an amphitheater, a cafe, and a skating rink.

After years of planning, the city of Philadelphia, PennDOT, and the Delaware River Waterfront Corp. (DRWC) have announced that with funding in place and the preliminary engineering finished, the project is moving to its final design phase.

Construction of the $225 million project will begin in 2021 and will include extension of the South Street Pedestrian Bridge, reconstruction and expansion of a bridge over I-95, and a portion of the Delaware River Trail. The new park will open in 2024.
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  #13022  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 5:57 PM
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  #13023  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 6:22 PM
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I'm a bit disappointed that the cap doesn't extend farther. Where did the $300 Mill go?
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  #13024  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 6:25 PM
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The park itself looks awesome and is definitely a huge upgrade. However I am a bit underwhelmed that the capping is only from Walnut to Chestnut. It should at least go up to Market street to the north and down to Dock street to the south.
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  #13025  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 6:33 PM
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True, it's straddle between the Seaport Museum and what looks like a potential use of land to build high rises as depicted in the render. Where the high rise sits, it is a huge surface lot (currently used as a seasonal beer garden and skating rink).
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  #13026  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bigfish View Post
The park itself looks awesome and is definitely a huge upgrade. However I am a bit underwhelmed that the capping is only from Walnut to Chestnut. It should at least go up to Market street to the north and down to Dock street to the south.
Yeah, why didn't they simply triple the size of this? /s
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  #13027  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 6:40 PM
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Yeah, why didn't they simply triple the size of this? /s
He's right though. It should definitely at least go to Market.
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  #13028  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 7:43 PM
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Obviously there are strong cost concerns, but long term I reaaaally hope they can extend it south to Dock Street. Less important to extend it north to Market IMO, though I certainly wouldn't be opposed lol. I imagine capping 95 is the more expensive part, but if they extended it to Dock Street they wouldn't need to cap Columbus too (though it'd need to be on some sort of incline to connect to Columbus, or something...).
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  #13029  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 8:38 PM
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I'm happy with the current plan; I think the plan was always to just cap between chestnut and walnut. not sure if capping to market is possible without lowering 95 since it starts to come above grade there. Also there's the El to worry about. Capping to Dock street seems more reasonable, but was probably more complex due to the grade changes (the current cap at dock street is level with delaware ave). Maybe it'll happen in the future, but I'd honestly rather them focus on capping the vine street expressway at least around Logan circle.
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  #13030  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 1:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
I'm happy with the current plan; I think the plan was always to just cap between chestnut and walnut. not sure if capping to market is possible without lowering 95 since it starts to come above grade there. Also there's the El to worry about. Capping to Dock street seems more reasonable, but was probably more complex due to the grade changes (the current cap at dock street is level with delaware ave). Maybe it'll happen in the future, but I'd honestly rather them focus on capping the vine street expressway at least around Logan circle.
I wonder if during this multi year planning process if there are any provisions for expanding the cap, probably to the south, in the future. A little bit of planning could go a long way in the future.

If anyone went to the public meeting was much if anything said as how this plan came to be vs the first 'plan' that was put out to the public maybe 18 months ago? Also, I hope theres plans for doing something to enliven the part of Delaware Ave which will become a short tunnel. The street has enough problems already, so it doesn't need any more.
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  #13031  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 4:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
I'm a bit disappointed that the cap doesn't extend farther. Where did the $300 Mill go?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfish View Post
The park itself looks awesome and is definitely a huge upgrade. However I am a bit underwhelmed that the capping is only from Walnut to Chestnut. It should at least go up to Market street to the north and down to Dock street to the south.
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Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
^^
True, it's straddle between the Seaport Museum and what looks like a potential use of land to build high rises as depicted in the render. Where the high rise sits, it is a huge surface lot (currently used as a seasonal beer garden and skating rink).
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
He's right though. It should definitely at least go to Market.
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Originally Posted by iamrobk View Post
Obviously there are strong cost concerns, but long term I reaaaally hope they can extend it south to Dock Street. Less important to extend it north to Market IMO, though I certainly wouldn't be opposed lol. I imagine capping 95 is the more expensive part, but if they extended it to Dock Street they wouldn't need to cap Columbus too (though it'd need to be on some sort of incline to connect to Columbus, or something...).
Y'all sound like you never, you know, read the Hargreaves plan. Or the Central Delaware plan from, like, a decade ago. This park has always been envisioned as extending from Chestnut to Walnut, and acting surprised when it's pointed out for laymen rather reflects poorly on people who claim to be more in the know, you know?
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Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
I wonder if during this multi year planning process if there are any provisions for expanding the cap, probably to the south, in the future. A little bit of planning could go a long way in the future.

If anyone went to the public meeting was much if anything said as how this plan came to be vs the first 'plan' that was put out to the public maybe 18 months ago? Also, I hope theres plans for doing something to enliven the part of Delaware Ave which will become a short tunnel. The street has enough problems already, so it doesn't need any more.
I was at work during the event so that was a thing, but what I want to see is PennDOT putting in preparatory work necessary for letting I-95 overbuild opportunities as development parcels. While I doubt this would yield tangible results for another 2-3 real estate cycles, it's also true that, once the empty lots get filled up and underbuilt buildings redeveloped, the obvious place to go in this part of town is ... on top of 95.

I think the stretch of Delaware Ave between Market and Dock streets is going to become a glorified service road, no matter how we wish it might be different (or not). To that end, while the existing infrastructure pushes pedestrian traffic coming across Dock into the interior of Penn's Landing, something DRWC needs to think about as they move into the phase of redeveloping the parcel between Chestnut, Walnut, Delaware, and the waterfront is pedestrian linkage between the level where the activity is and Delaware Avenue at Market Street. Otherwise, the stretch of Delaware between Market and Race runs a real risk of becoming a pedestrian cul-de-sac (even more than it already is).

Also I am rather interested in what the Hilton will do with its parking garage, and the Seaport Museum with their oversized plot once this park backs up to them. I think we're about to run into an oversight nobody's noticed before about the Hargreaves plan: that it never resolved the level changes w/r/t pedestrian experience around the B sides (so to speak) of the cap park satisfactorily.
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  #13032  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 5:03 AM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Also I am rather interested in what the Hilton will do with its parking garage, and the Seaport Museum with their oversized plot once this park backs up to them. I think we're about to run into an oversight nobody's noticed before about the Hargreaves plan: that it never resolved the level changes w/r/t pedestrian experience around the B sides (so to speak) of the cap park satisfactorily.
I'm concerned there will be a park hanging out there and nothing lining it. Like an island. The areas north and south of the park will need completely rebuilt to respond to the park. Very expensive undertaking in itself. What happens to the road that currently connects Market to Chestnut? The park is like it was developed in a bubble and isn't coordinated with the surroundings.
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  #13033  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SEFTA View Post
I'm concerned there will be a park hanging out there and nothing lining it. Like an island. The areas north and south of the park will need completely rebuilt to respond to the park. Very expensive undertaking in itself. What happens to the road that currently connects Market to Chestnut? The park is like it was developed in a bubble and isn't coordinated with the surroundings.
I would love to have one of those properties lining front street looking towards the water. Great views for them.
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  #13034  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 12:55 PM
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The shovel has been there for over a week not doing anything. I think I remember a shovel being there a while ago as well. I hope I'm wrong, but this may just be storage.
Couldn't be happier to be wrong. Excavation has started at Broad and Alter.
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  #13035  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 12:59 PM
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Like others, I'm happy with the current plan. Capping an entire city block is no insignificant event! While I do wish that the capping area could've extended as far south as Dock Street, I'm more interested in capping the Vine Street Expressway between 9th and 22nd Streets.

In my opinion, 95 should have never entered PA, let alone Philadelphia County. If I were in control and could get the federal support necessary, 95 would run along the Jersey Turnpike in its entirety. This would allow for 95 to be removed between the Girard Avenue and Oregon Avenue interchanges. The former stretch of 95 running south from the Oregon Ave interchange would become I-495, and the stretch running north from the Girard Avenue interchange would become I-295. Not only would this allow for 95 to be removed in Philly, but it would also allow for it to be removed from Wilmington, which caused a LOT of damage to its downtown area.

The aforementioned project, along with those that I'm about to mention, would run in the tens of billions; however, we'd receive better-connected cities in the end. Other projects:

-Tunnel the Schuylkill Expressway from south of the Spring Garden interchange to just north of the Schuylkill River via 31st and 32nd Streets. This will allow for an expanded six-lane roadway between the Roosevelt Expressway and the Walt Whitman Bridge, as the tunnel would hold six lanes.

-Tunnel the VSE under the Schuylkill River from 22nd Street to the new Schuylkill Expressway tunnel, via a new interchange. Create a new direct interchange to the Ben Franklin Bridge, and give 6th, 7th, and Race Streets road diets, respectively.

-Cap the VSE between 9th and 22nd Streets. Eliminate the WB 15th/16th Street interchange and create a new, simpler interchange to allow for the development of the large parcel it currently takes up.
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  #13036  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 1:26 PM
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For political reasons, 95 had to run through Philadelphia at some point, even if for just a little bit. I have always said the best way to have done this would have been to send 95 over the Walt Whitman Bridge after going by the Stadiums and connect 95 up with the NJTPK after it crosses into NJ. But hey, we have what we have and the oldest part of our city was destroyed because of it.
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  #13037  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 1:45 PM
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Originally Posted by tsarstruck View Post
Couldn't be happier to be wrong. Excavation has started at Broad and Alter.
Awesome!

North and south Broad are on Fire!
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  #13038  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 3:50 PM
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Originally Posted by blorkishdork View Post
For political reasons, 95 had to run through Philadelphia at some point, even if for just a little bit. I have always said the best way to have done this would have been to send 95 over the Walt Whitman Bridge after going by the Stadiums and connect 95 up with the NJTPK after it crosses into NJ. But hey, we have what we have and the oldest part of our city was destroyed because of it.
I'd rather it had been the other way around; use the NJ pike to the walt and cross over into the stadium area and continue on it's current path. Or am I thinking southbound and you're thinking northbound? Anyway, nothing we can do now but try to improve the mess we were given. That 676/95 interchange for example and the fact that 676 has a gap that is using local roads around franklin square. Who thought that was a good idea?
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  #13039  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 4:14 PM
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Yup, I was thinking going northbound.
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  #13040  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2019, 3:21 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan View Post
Like others, I'm happy with the current plan. Capping an entire city block is no insignificant event! While I do wish that the capping area could've extended as far south as Dock Street, I'm more interested in capping the Vine Street Expressway between 9th and 22nd Streets.

In my opinion, 95 should have never entered PA, let alone Philadelphia County. If I were in control and could get the federal support necessary, 95 would run along the Jersey Turnpike in its entirety. This would allow for 95 to be removed between the Girard Avenue and Oregon Avenue interchanges. The former stretch of 95 running south from the Oregon Ave interchange would become I-495, and the stretch running north from the Girard Avenue interchange would become I-295. Not only would this allow for 95 to be removed in Philly, but it would also allow for it to be removed from Wilmington, which caused a LOT of damage to its downtown area.

The aforementioned project, along with those that I'm about to mention, would run in the tens of billions; however, we'd receive better-connected cities in the end. Other projects:

-Tunnel the Schuylkill Expressway from south of the Spring Garden interchange to just north of the Schuylkill River via 31st and 32nd Streets. This will allow for an expanded six-lane roadway between the Roosevelt Expressway and the Walt Whitman Bridge, as the tunnel would hold six lanes.

-Tunnel the VSE under the Schuylkill River from 22nd Street to the new Schuylkill Expressway tunnel, via a new interchange. Create a new direct interchange to the Ben Franklin Bridge, and give 6th, 7th, and Race Streets road diets, respectively.

-Cap the VSE between 9th and 22nd Streets. Eliminate the WB 15th/16th Street interchange and create a new, simpler interchange to allow for the development of the large parcel it currently takes up.
While we're in this realm, something I would do with untold billions of dollars would be to sink the entire 95/VSE interchange. Yep, tunnelize the whole thing and only let it come back up to the surface up by the Frankford Arsenal. This allows for the opening up of extensive development opportunities in the River Wards, reconnecting them to the river, as well as potentially a greenway elsewhere where it's needed, like Port Richmond.

This isn't just something harebrained, either. Sydney is doing the exact same thing right now.
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