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  #13141  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 4:21 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
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Originally Posted by Nova08 View Post
Do I think it would be nice public transit addition...yes. I am all for expanding our mass transit system.

But I look at the 15,000 people who work in the NY with basically one road in/out and a second that is a bit circuitous. And there are only plans to grow the NY.

I think the next Ice Age is more likely than Septa undertaking two major mass transit projects at the same time (let alone three with the KOP extension).
KOP, very doubtful. What's the other project you're referring to?
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  #13142  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 5:31 PM
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  #13143  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 5:33 PM
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Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
KOP, very doubtful. What's the other project you're referring to?
Sorry I just meant something related to the city branch
  1. KOP Extension
  2. BSL NY Extension
  3. Some type of extension using the city branch ditch
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  #13144  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 5:52 PM
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The KOP Spur is happening happening. They’ve contracted an engineering firm which is a huge step.
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  #13145  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 6:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
The KOP Spur is happening happening. They’ve contracted an engineering firm which is a huge step.
I think it's all part of the planning and design process stage at this point. For Septa to come up with 1-1.2 billion to have the project materialize, I think that's what we are all doubting.
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  #13146  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 6:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
The KOP Spur is happening happening. They’ve contracted an engineering firm which is a huge step.
That does not mean its advancing. Any project of that size is dependent on huge federal contribution. None of that has been arranged yet.
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  #13147  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 6:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
That does not mean its advancing. Any project of that size is dependent on huge federal contribution. None of that has been arranged yet.
The government only funds shovel-ready projects. So Septa has to do some legwork ahead of time to get it shovel-ready in order to get funds. So I wouldn't necessarily expect it to have federal funding at this point, but perhaps in the future once the engineering is complete.
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  #13148  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 7:05 PM
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ok, thanks for clarifying. you guys are on the beat! lots of residential activity in that area despite it feeling like a industrial zone with all the stores that deal with the construction and building trades.
Stacking them up...on 25th and Washington Ave.

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  #13149  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
That does not mean its advancing. Any project of that size is dependent on huge federal contribution. None of that has been arranged yet.
Isn't federal dollars given out more or less as matching money these days? I think its noteworthy that none of the local gov'ts out in the KOP area have shown much interest in this extension, its all come from business and transit groups.

Also remember that SEPTA loves to spend other peoples cash on planning (remember the multi-year plans for a rail link to Reading, etc.) but actually building anything is completely different. Theres something to be said for their thinking that unless a extension is self supporting or underwritten by other parties, having SEPTA spend money on additional operating costs just takes money away from their existing system.
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  #13150  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2019, 4:56 PM
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This may be an unpopular opinion on this forum, but I really wish SEPTA would scrap any plans to build a NHSL extension to King of Prussia. I don't see a scenario in which this whole effort doesn't turn out to be a boondoggle. As someone who has spent a good amount of time in Tyson's Corner, VA (a pretty close approximation to KoP), it's incredibly difficult to turn an auto-oriented location into one that is conducive to taking public transit and walking. Tysons, to be blunt, really sucks as a pedestrian. Unless the landlords in KoP are planning on reorienting their developments to be pedestrian friendly (i.e. unfriendly to autos), this whole project is going to be underutilized.

The money spent on this project would be far better utilized expanding transit in the city, such as extending express BSL service to South Philadelphia, burying the trolleys along Lancaster Avenue, creating a Ridge-avenue spur of the BSL, etc.

Transit and land use are the same issue, and KoP is auto-oriented from top to bottom. An extension of a seldom used high speed trolley isn't going to change that.
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  #13151  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2019, 5:40 PM
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^
KOP is auto-oriented, but a very strong case has been made for the NHSL to KOP for that and other reasons. KOP has grown leaps and bounds, with the the KOP mall, town center and all the recent residential and commercial developments. I76 to and from KOP is in gridlock. Lots of people reverse commute from the city to KOP, lots of people work at the mall from the city, and vice versa. I think there's a real benefit to building out the NHSL. I hope they find federal and state funding to make this happen. It will be a giant lift from local, state, federal folks and Septa and everyone behind the scene.
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  #13152  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2019, 6:16 PM
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I'm not against the kop nhsl spur, but I think the billion dollar price tag would have been better spent extending the regional rail out to at least Phoenixville (eventually out to reading) with a stop in the kop area. A lot of those towns are pedestrian friendly with the old stations still in place. It would take a lot to change kop into something walkable. They are making some changes like town center, but a lot of business based there is kind of sprawled, the roads are massive and sidewalks missing. That would need to change for folks to be able to depend on the nhsl for commuting to work.
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  #13153  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2019, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
I'm not against the kop nhsl spur, but I think the billion dollar price tag would have been better spent extending the regional rail out to at least Phoenixville (eventually out to reading) with a stop in the kop area. A lot of those towns are pedestrian friendly with the old stations still in place. It would take a lot to change kop into something walkable. They are making some changes like town center, but a lot of business based there is kind of sprawled, the roads are massive and sidewalks missing. That would need to change for folks to be able to depend on the nhsl for commuting to work.
A Manayunk/Norristown extension to Phoenixville is happening in tandem with the NHSL extension.
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  #13154  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2019, 3:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DudeGuy View Post
This may be an unpopular opinion on this forum, but I really wish SEPTA would scrap any plans to build a NHSL extension to King of Prussia. I don't see a scenario in which this whole effort doesn't turn out to be a boondoggle. As someone who has spent a good amount of time in Tyson's Corner, VA (a pretty close approximation to KoP), it's incredibly difficult to turn an auto-oriented location into one that is conducive to taking public transit and walking. Tysons, to be blunt, really sucks as a pedestrian. Unless the landlords in KoP are planning on reorienting their developments to be pedestrian friendly (i.e. unfriendly to autos), this whole project is going to be underutilized.

The money spent on this project would be far better utilized expanding transit in the city, such as extending express BSL service to South Philadelphia, burying the trolleys along Lancaster Avenue, creating a Ridge-avenue spur of the BSL, etc.

Transit and land use are the same issue, and KoP is auto-oriented from top to bottom. An extension of a seldom used high speed trolley isn't going to change that.
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Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
^
KOP is auto-oriented, but a very strong case has been made for the NHSL to KOP for that and other reasons. KOP has grown leaps and bounds, with the the KOP mall, town center and all the recent residential and commercial developments. I76 to and from KOP is in gridlock. Lots of people reverse commute from the city to KOP, lots of people work at the mall from the city, and vice versa. I think there's a real benefit to building out the NHSL. I hope they find federal and state funding to make this happen. It will be a giant lift from local, state, federal folks and Septa and everyone behind the scene.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
I'm not against the kop nhsl spur, but I think the billion dollar price tag would have been better spent extending the regional rail out to at least Phoenixville (eventually out to reading) with a stop in the kop area. A lot of those towns are pedestrian friendly with the old stations still in place. It would take a lot to change kop into something walkable. They are making some changes like town center, but a lot of business based there is kind of sprawled, the roads are massive and sidewalks missing. That would need to change for folks to be able to depend on the nhsl for commuting to work.
I have watched KOP grow over the years and I pass the bus stops on 202 frequently, always packed now. With stops around the mall/town center/casino I can't see this rail extension being underutilized or a failure; lots of service jobs and people who need to get to them efficiently. I know that it can be the chicken/egg argument because it's hard to figure out if people drive because they want to or because they have to but in this case I have been seeing more evidence of it being a have to.

I do think that there could be a cheaper alternative, though, and put light rail down the median of 202 or something (I am only half serious because I know the logistics of this can be tough but I don't think this project needs to be that expensive and there may be some cheaper alternatives).
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  #13155  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2019, 8:18 PM
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King of Prussia really needs rail. It would make more sense to expand Regional Rail to KOP though, rather than the NHSL. Both would actually be awesome.

Biggest transit needs in the Philadelphia area:

1. King of Prussia Rail expansion, with stops at the mall, the town center, the casino, and Valley Forge Park train station

2. Navy Yard Broad Street line expansion

3. A Cultural line expansion in the city branch, from broad street, down along the Parkway, and to the Zoo

4. Regional Rail expansion to West Chester

5. Regional Rail expansion to Phoenixville and Royersford

6. Regional Rail expansion to Newtown and New Hope

7. New Jersey Transit expansion down through Gloucester City, Woodbury and Glassboro/Rowan University.
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  #13156  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2019, 4:26 AM
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^^^^^
someplace in this list I'd add A. a direct mass transit (non-bus) connection from CC to the Delaware River water front B. a new stop around 22th St. on the MFL.

Re KOP, I think what is being proposed or something close to it (like a stop closer to the mall) might very well be well used, but that doesn't really help get it built. Regardless, there needs to be a much faster way for new projects to be considered and hopefully acted on. The present method of spending decades about one possibility at a time is hurtful to the whole area.

Personally I think the likelihood of extensions to the regional rail is more likely to happen then most suggestions because in general the suburbs like and support commuter rail and SEPTA can approach the idea several miles at a time: this decade go to Wawa, next decade go to Thornbury then in the '30's go to West Chester, where the idea of deciding to go to New Hope (and beyond) and how to best serve that part of the country, then to design and fund raise would just be too much for SEPTA to tackle. Unfortunately small steps are the only changes SEPTA and the powers that be seem willing and able to consider.
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  #13157  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2019, 1:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat View Post
The government only funds shovel-ready projects. So Septa has to do some legwork ahead of time to get it shovel-ready in order to get funds. So I wouldn't necessarily expect it to have federal funding at this point, but perhaps in the future once the engineering is complete.
To even apply for the new starts grants you need a certain % of design complete and certain environmental clearances in place. With design costs running into the tens of millions, you definitely do not fully design a project like this and then go ask for the money. In fact, many projects like this are design-build in which the project is designed only up to 30% before being bid out to joint venture entities that take responsibility for completing the design and constructing the project.
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  #13158  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2019, 1:39 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
^
KOP is auto-oriented, but a very strong case has been made for the NHSL to KOP for that and other reasons. KOP has grown leaps and bounds, with the the KOP mall, town center and all the recent residential and commercial developments. I76 to and from KOP is in gridlock. Lots of people reverse commute from the city to KOP, lots of people work at the mall from the city, and vice versa. I think there's a real benefit to building out the NHSL. I hope they find federal and state funding to make this happen. It will be a giant lift from local, state, federal folks and Septa and everyone behind the scene.
The reality is the projected ridership is modest- and this is a key factor that gets evaluated when regions compete for federal matching funds. One reason is the fact you can't take a one trip ride from CC to K of P with this plan.
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  #13159  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2019, 1:49 PM
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Some interesting movement in Mantua that I don't think has been covered yet here:

https://www.phillytrib.com/news/busi...559847478.html

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The “Village Square on Haverford” envisions a two-phase development that will bring 166 units of housing to 36th Street and Haverford Avenue, along with 31,145 square feet of commercial space anchored by a “full-service” Met Fresh Supermarket.
Quote:
Lomax said the sale will head to City Council for final approval with a projected groundbreaking in the second quarter of 2020.
For something that's been sitting for years without much of an update, that's a fairly quick start time.

Really excited to see something - specifically an urban project with a grocery store - in this space. The image in the article isn't the greatest, but it's infinitely better than what's there currently and a big step in the right direction for the neighborhood.
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  #13160  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2019, 1:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
The reality is the projected ridership is modest- and this is a key factor that gets evaluated when regions compete for federal matching funds. One reason is the fact you can't take a one trip ride from CC to K of P with this plan.
Are your about these ridership numbers on page 7?

http://www.kingofprussiarail.com/doc...l-FAQs-web.pdf

And then the fact sheet talks about reduction of VMT, which got my attention:

http://www.kingofprussiarail.com/doc...ct%20sheet.pdf

And, I'm wondering if anyone on this forum works or is affiliated with Septa? Maybe they can speak to how much of how little of this project will become reality.
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