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  #1  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 8:25 PM
dennis1 dennis1 is offline
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What do people in hamilton prefer?

What do you guys prefer? Your own metro or joining with Toronto?
Just for refrence
Haldimand County (45,212)
Norfolk County(62,563)
Brant County (34,415)
Brantford City (90,192)
RM Niagara(427,421)
Hamilton (504, 559)
Total: 1,164,362

or

GTA (with other parts of Toronto CMA) (5,641,648)
Hamilton (504, 559)
Total:6,146,207
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  #2  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 9:24 PM
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On our own! Want nothing to do with hog town!
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  #3  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by LikeHamilton View Post
On our own! Want nothing to do with hog town!
Why?
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  #4  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 11:53 PM
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I will attempt to answer this why at least on a psychological level. The small contingent of Hamilton residents who take interest in our city's built form are people who value traditional urban design. We see the downtown core as the centre of our universe and the place of highest social and economic importance. It follows that it should be full of services, amenities, places of employment, and all types of people. I don't mean to speak for anyone else here, but I'm sure many will agree.

Being part of Toronto's metro positions us as not the centre of our own jurisdiction, but the most far flung suburb of another. This renders our own central business district at best a satellite downtown of Toronto's, like Mississauga City Centre.

In reality I suppose it doesn't matter much as the gravitational pull of Toronto has and will have its effect regardless. Many of our residents commute there leaving our own downtown emptier. We're the last stop of their transportation network, whereas 100 years ago we were the centre of our own. You just can't fight demographics.
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  #5  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 12:21 AM
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Even as a born and raised Torontonian, I believe Hamilton should be on the other side of the Western limit of the GTA. Hamilton is it's own city, not a bedroom community. We have our own university, many colleges, hospitals and a strong business/manufacturing sector. Hamilton isn't some sprawl town suburb like Burlington, Oakville, Brampton, Oshawa, York Region, etc. In the same vein I'd also like to see Mississauga become more of it's own city, but I can't see that happening as long as the sprawl continues.
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  #6  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 12:32 AM
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I tend actually agree with you guys. Being the centre of a area that includes Niagara and Brantford could actually be better as it will give Hamilton independence and prominence.
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  #7  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 1:01 AM
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Every single Torontonian I've met who has visited Hamilton has the same thing to say... "wow, I didn't know Hamilton had so much potential.." or "what a great urban area, with a little TLC it could be a great place" or "why does everything close downtown at 5pm?"

Contrast this with what I hear from Hamiltonians and people from smaller cities around Hamilton "downtown is scary" or "downtown is terrible, traffic is terrible"
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  #8  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 1:04 AM
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Hamilton would get screwed and neglected if it was amalgamated with Toronto.
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  #9  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 1:07 AM
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Hamilton has been screwed and neglected for 40 years while Toronto has grown into a world class city during that time.
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  #10  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 2:01 AM
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Whats Toronto, All kidding a side. This can't happen ever. If anything I think burlington should become absorbed into us like the do with Housing stats etc. I don't think we will ever become a toronto borough.
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  #11  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 2:57 AM
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Hamilton would get screwed and neglected if it was amalgamated with Toronto.
Agree. And how much would that cost us taxpayers in the longrun to be part of the name "Toronto"?
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  #12  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 5:09 AM
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Quote:
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Hamilton has been screwed and neglected for 40 years while Toronto has grown into a world class city during that time.
Hamilton has been screwed (as have the other areas mentioned in the first post) by increasing forces of centralization into the nexus of Toronto, both commercial and government. Hell we don't even have our own bank, whereas practically every podunk place in the U.S. does. Plus look at the huge number of Ontario government employees on the $100,000 list that just came out. Where are a huge proportion of them located? Downtown Toronto.

People sometimes ask me why I'm against increased public sector spending. Part of it is that I have a bit of a libertarian bent, but part of it is that I love Hamilton and increased public sector spending drains the life away from communities like Hamilton over time and increases the primacy of capitals like Toronto and Ottawa.
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  #13  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dennis1 View Post
What do you guys prefer? Your own metro or joining with Toronto?
*facepalm*
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  #14  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt602 View Post
Hamilton is it's own city, not a bedroom community. We have our own university, many colleges, hospitals and a strong business/manufacturing sector. Hamilton isn't some sprawl town suburb like Burlington, Oakville, Brampton, Oshawa, York Region, etc.
In a cultural/political sense, you're right. Hamilton is a distinct place, and our goal as citizens should be to cultivate Hamilton's distinction as a desirable community and a destination in its own right.

But in a strictly economic sense, it's more complex. Richard Florida argues that Hamilton is part of a mega-region that stretches from Toronto to Buffalo (determined through the ingenious method of mapping contiguously lighted areas visible from satellite photos taken at night) and that our economic success is broadly tied to the success of the region as a whole - a region of which Toronto is unquestionably at the wheel, economically speaking.

That's not to say Hamilton can't carve out an important and distinct niche within that larger regional economy. I still believe we should be focusing our energies on cultivating Richard Gilbert's vision of Hamilton as a centre of innovation for energy conservation and production.

Let Toronto have finance: we'll never beat them at their game, so let's cultivate our own game.

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Originally Posted by drpgq View Post
Hell we don't even have our own bank, whereas practically every podunk place in the U.S. does.
That's mainly a function of different banking rules between the US and Canada. Thanks to decades of smart, sensible regulation, Canada is widely regarded to have the best banking system in the world - even if it is dominated by the Big Five, which have proven remarkably resilient against the crises, panics and runs that regularly cripple banks in the US and Europe.

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Plus look at the huge number of Ontario government employees on the $100,000 list that just came out. Where are a huge proportion of them located? Downtown Toronto.
Not surprising, since that's where the Ontario Legislature is located.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drpgq View Post
People sometimes ask me why I'm against increased public sector spending. Part of it is that I have a bit of a libertarian bent, but part of it is that I love Hamilton and increased public sector spending drains the life away from communities like Hamilton over time and increases the primacy of capitals like Toronto and Ottawa.
I'm all for a) robust countercyclical stimulus spending during a recession to kickstart the economy and avoid a liquidity trap; and b) public investment in critical infrastructure that will facilitate economic growth.

Unfortunately, in Hamilton we have too often gone for public apparatus as a general replacement for economic growth during both good times and bad, instead of addressing the structural problems that discourage investment in Hamilton.

It's quite depressing that HHS is the biggest employer in Hamilton, given that public facilities don't pay property tax and there is virtually no opportunity for spinoff development. That's not to say I oppose public investment in not-for-profit medical research and innovation; but it shouldn't be seen as a substitute for economic development.
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  #15  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 1:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dennis1 View Post
Being the centre of a area that includes Niagara and Brantford could actually be better as it will give Hamilton independence and prominence.
This is what I'd like to see -- as someone born and raised in Hamilton, currently a non-resident Hamilton homeowner.

And as a Toronto resident, I'd say the GTA already does a mess of a job managing the somewhat diverse areas it encompasses -- and I don't believe they'd do any better with Hamilton (which is very different from the GTA 'cities' in my opinion). My view might be skewed by the fact that I lived in Toronto pre-amalgamation too. Many of the attempts to bring consistency across the region have seemed ridiculous, as are many of the remaining inconsistencies.
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  #16  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 1:25 PM
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From a cultural point of view and generaly how each Cities population percieves themselves, I would suggest the following amalgamations as very likely in the next 50 years.

Burlington + Oakville = The City of Burloak

Oakville is Burlington's slightly richer brother... but really the two might as well be the same person.

Mississauga will probly one day be part of Toronto. I defy anybody to get in a helicopter and point to the border when Mississauga stops and Toronto begins. It's indistinguishable.

Hamilton will probly still have the same border as it does now. Flamborough makes a big stink about how they associate themselves more with Kitchener/Waterloo. But the KW knows they're Hamilton through and through. (Hey! that rhymes!)

Haldimand is also much more tied to Hamilton that they like to think. I would see them becoming part of Hamilton more readily than with any other municipality. Or Haldimand and Norfolk will probly merge... didn't they do that already? They're one and the same if you ask me.

Niagara, Welland, St. Catherines. They might as well get a room, screw and get it over with. They're practicaly a city already and they wan't nothing to do with Hamilton.


Ditto Brantford.
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  #17  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 2:03 PM
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I could see 50 or so years from now Haldimand and Norfolk joining with Hamilton's CMA with continue sprawl to the South and employment land around the Airport. I bet already majority in Caledonia works and commute to Hamilton.
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  #18  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 2:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam View Post
Every single Torontonian I've met who has visited Hamilton has the same thing to say... "wow, I didn't know Hamilton had so much potential.." or "what a great urban area, with a little TLC it could be a great place" or "why does everything close downtown at 5pm?"

Contrast this with what I hear from Hamiltonians and people from smaller cities around Hamilton "downtown is scary" or "downtown is terrible, traffic is terrible"
+1

To quote The Joker (as portrayed by Jack Nicholson):

"This town needs an enema!"
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  #19  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2009, 12:39 AM
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If we take RM Niagara out, We still have 736,941. This actually sounds like a good idea. "Greater Hamilton Region" sounds good.
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  #20  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2009, 1:30 AM
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Hamilton needs to take more ownership of Burlington. Hamilton proper has shed jobs like crazy but basically survives because of the employment corridor along the QEW through Halton Region. A sad and unfair situation for Hamilton vis a vis Burlington from a taxation perspective.
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