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  #81  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 3:22 PM
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more DC development:

https://www.bisnow.com/washington-dc...zon-hq2-101092

Quote:
The developer announced Tuesday it filed plans with Arlington County to redevelop 2.6M SF across five multifamily buildings and one office building in the area it has branded as National Landing. The buildings are located at 2000 and 2001 South Bell St., 223 23rd St., 2300 Crystal Drive and 2525 Crystal Drive, which consists of two towers. They are part of the extensive portfolio of aging Crystal City buildings that became part of JBG Smith's portfolio with the 2017 merger of The JBG Cos. and Vornado.

The redevelopment of the buildings will follow the two multifamily projects JBG Smith is already moving forward with in the area. The developer plans to begin construction next year on 1900 Crystal Drive, which will bring 750 new multifamily units across two high-rise towers. It also filed plans in July to add nearly 1,000 units to the RiverHouse community in Pentagon City. These plans combined total over half of JBG Smith's 6.9M SF of future development pipeline in National Landing.

The pipeline is ultimately slated to include up to 5,000 multifamily units and 2.2M SF of office in addition to the new Amazon buildings, for which it is serving as a development partner. JBG Smith is also under construction on its Central District Retail redevelopment. The latest redevelopment plans include public benefits such as open spaces, improved pedestrian infrastructure and transportation upgrades. JBG Smith plans to work with the county on the final designs for the public benefits during the entitlement phase. "In reimagining this vital stretch along Crystal Drive and 23rd Street, we are focused on the goals of Arlington County's Sector Plan, as well as our collective desire to foster a vibrant, architecturally distinct 18-hour environment throughout National Landing," JBG Smith Executive Vice President Bryan Moll said in a release.

Read more at: https://www.bisnow.com/washington-dc...medium=Browser
I would bet that a similarly sized development in Toronto or Miami would include many more highrises.
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  #82  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 3:24 PM
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meanwhile in Reston:

https://www.bisnow.com/washington-dc...lopment-101172

Quote:
At full build-out, Halley Rise is slated to include 1.5M SF of offices, 250K SF of retail and 1,500 residential units, 15% of which would be set aside as affordable. Brookfield is working with several architects on the project, including Morris Adjmi Architects, MV+A, Eric Colbert & Associates, Hacker, Allied Works, Fox Architects and KPF.

Halley Rise is not the only major mixed-use development moving forward near the Reston Town Center Metro station. Boston Properties, the developer behind Reston Town Center, is also building Reston Gateway, a 1M SF office project anchored by Fannie Mae. JBG Smith is building the second phase of RTC West, a 1.3M SF development with a mix of office, residential and retail.

Read more at: https://www.bisnow.com/washington-dc...medium=Browser
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  #83  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 4:10 PM
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Maybe thats the difference...the above massive project would include at least one 40 story condo in Toronto or Melbourne
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  #84  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 4:52 PM
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Building height and economics is fascinating subject, nicely explored by Jason Barr in his work on NYC talks. I was always led to believe that any building over 50 stories was the triumph of ego over economics. However the cost picture is quite complex and the economics of building tall buildings in South America or China is very different, particularly when driven by construction costs. In any case what we have seen recently in Atlanta as examples is the new headquarters of Norfolk Southern (under construction), State Farm (almost complete), and NCR (completed recently). In each case the square footage is very high, but in each case these big companies opted for very large multi-building mid-rise projects rather than one tall tower. Undoubtedly, if each of these headquarters were built in NYC or Chicago they would be > 50 floors; in Shanghai even taller.
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  #85  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 5:14 PM
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I think when you are selling a prestige international address economics ties to incomes go out the window, and its more about wealth and luxury goods.

Is the etobicoke waterfront or north York prestige, maybe not in most peoples eyes but Canada has been able to market itself as such to wealthy people in India and China and the Philippines to command the prices necessary to build 50 story condos in notionally marginal areas.
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  #86  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 5:15 PM
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The economics can work fine for taller buildings in many cases...it's usually related to high rents and expensive land. Also expensive property values once completed. If you see a 50-story building go up, the reason is generally economic.

And of course the municipality has to allow tall buildings.
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  #87  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 5:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Most Canadian metros will end up looking a lot like Vancouver (multiple dense clusters scattered about) but most still don't look like that. In Halifax, for instance, kids still walk/drive to high school. I certainly did. There is no rail. And in most Canadian CMAs PT is still considered something poor people use. It's the big 3 metros that are the exception to that rule.

This will change as our metros get denser and PT becomes viable/good enough over larger swaths of our cities but we're not there yet. Even in Toronto, PT just isn't an attractive option in many cases. I live downtown and currently work in Etobicoke but there's no way in hell I'm taking PT to get there. Not happening. If I can't get there on a subway I either drive or don't go at all.

I take the Gardiner Expressway depicted on the left. You'd think there would be decent PT between downtown and the suburban cluster in Etobicoke's Humber Bay Shores (centre) but there's not. Even if they built a subway to that cluster I'd still drive as I work 5 km further west than that cluster. The people living in Humber Bay Shores are all car dependent. They drive everywhere. They don't walk or bike either.


Courtesy of Norm



And Montreal has no business having the 3rd most average daily boardings of any metro system after NYC and Mexico City. It's slightly ahead of Toronto in 4th.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_by_ridership
No to mention the fact that it seems Ottawa has double the transit ridership of DFW, and is ahead of many other much larger American cities.
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  #88  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 5:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckerman View Post
The data on multifamily housing has some problems in interpretation to high rise development. Large amount of this new housing in the US, perhaps with the exception of NYC, is the 5 story wood frame type, often on a 1 or 2 story concrete parking base. The number of buildings that are 20 or more floors is less common. That is one of the key differences with the comparison of Canada, e.g. Toronto and Vancouver, to the US cities.

In Atlanta we are seeing many 20-35 floor buildings rising in the city, but few planned higher than that - including office buildings. The suburbs are mostly the 5 story wood frame complexes.
I'd be curious to know how much of the multi-family in cities like DFW is not even 5 story wood frame over parking base but full on suburban auto-oriented multi-family, possibly in places with no transit whatsoever, like this.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@33.11923...7i16384!8i8192

Last edited by memph; Nov 3, 2019 at 6:43 PM.
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  #89  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 6:36 PM
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Or stuff nearby like this, which isn't much better: https://www.google.ca/maps/@33.09945.../data=!3m1!1e3
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  #90  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 6:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Well, yeah. Households in multifamily are more likely to need public transit.

But they're not living in multifamily due to public transit. That doesn't make much sense. The most transit-rich corridor in Canada (Yonge) has tons of SFH right on the subway, while there are giant multifamily complexes in exurban Toronto, with relatively poor transit.
People definitely value good transit access in Toronto, even in the suburbs. Transit is an important part of the electoral platform for most politicians, even for conservative politicians running for office in suburban municipalities.

The majority of people commuting to downtown Toronto from what you seem to call the "exurbs" take transit (mostly GO train), at around 80%. Downtown Toronto is where most of the growth in well paying jobs is happening. People definitely value living near transit that provides good access to those downtown jobs.

Out of the 248 highrises under construction in the Toronto area, 145 are in Old Toronto, mostly in downtown, with the midtown areas near the Yonge Subway being the second largest node.

I think the connection is a bit loose. People aren't primarily opting to live in a condo in Mississauga instead of a SFH because the condo has better access to transit. Access to jobs is definitely a factor though, and that's mostly focused on access to downtown Toronto with access to the Hwy 404 employment corridor and Mississauga job centres being secondary drivers. Downtown Toronto's large number of jobs is definitely strongly tied to the fact that much of the metro area has good transit access to it.

I'd also say that if you are going to live in a condo in Toronto, and you can't afford downtown, there's still a preference for condos in areas that have both good transit access to downtown, and good transit/highway (yeah, maybe mostly highway) access to the suburban job centres. There is quite a lot of condo development around commuter rail stations (and the Vaughan subway station), and much of the rest is around shopping mall bus terminals in suburban areas relatively close to the suburban job centres, and to the suburban GO stations. I would not expect much condo development (esp highrise) in East Gwilimbury, Castlemore or northern Whitby.
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  #91  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 7:14 PM
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So most development is near transit? Same in dc, multi family is concentrated on the metro lines

In Dallas, the city of Dallas, Plano, Fort Worth, Richardson, Addison, Irving etc account for that majority of new multifamily additions. A minority are in far flung areas like Frisco and McKinney, most are close to the city or within Dallas itself . Dense nodes zones for multifamily and benefitting from short commute times, and being filled in

But still that doesn’t explain the towers vs midrise issue .
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  #92  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 7:28 PM
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New Carrolton metro development, DC:

https://www.bizjournals.com/washingt...n-station.html

Quote:
The 2.7 million-square-foot development plan for New Carrollton includes 1,300 residential units, 1.1 million square feet of office space, retail and a hotel.
again, massive TOD investment, no 40 story towers.
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  #93  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 7:38 PM
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grand daddy of them all, tysons corner

https://www.tysonsreporter.com/2019/...t-tysons-west/

18 million sq feet under development just in Tysons west

Quote:
Tysons these days has a bit of a reputation as a cultural wasteland. Even today, that’s not quite true, and if the plans for Tysons West come to fruition it won’t be true at all.

The Tysons Comprehensive Plan envisions this area, which is centered on the Spring Hill Metro station, as one of Tysons’ four downtown districts, an “arts and entertainment center.” The plan calls for a high-density diversity of uses, “tree-lined streets”, and “a series of urban park spaces.” Over 18 million square feet of development, including what could be Tysons’ tallest tower, is in the works, and much of it (though not yet the tower) has been approved.

From Car Dealerships to Towers

Today, Tysons West is the least developed of Tysons’ four downtown areas. Much of the land is still covered by car dealerships. But the arrival of a more urban form of transportation — the Silver Line — has sparked intense plans for redevelopment.

These plans, although by a range of different developers, share many elements that characterize projects across Tysons. They’re dense, mixed-use, and are built with an eye for pedestrian accessibility, meaning that residents should be able to fulfill daily and weekly needs without motorized transportation. They’re outward-facing, with most attention and retail activity on the sidewalks of public streets rather than inside buildings or isolated courtyards. And they connect to one another, through a new grid of streets, helping residents of one development enjoy the amenities of another.

Many of these projects also promise to bring sports fields, for example in Dominion Square East, or provide funding for fields nearby.

There’s so much new development slated for this area that I can’t even list it all, but naming a few key projects should give a sense of the scope of the plans.
we are getting a couple of high rises out of this , but the ratio of high rises to total sq feet being developed so quite low vs toronto.

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  #94  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Or stuff nearby like this, which isn't much better: https://www.google.ca/maps/@33.09945.../data=!3m1!1e3
lol, quite prejudiced are we.

Here are some Dallas examples:







https://www.bisnow.com/dallas-ft-wor...omans-do-99310
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  #95  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 8:09 PM
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If you had read the thread, you'd see that it was a question...how much of it was like that, not a statement that most or all of it was.

The "Dallas Midtown" development is a plan looks like a decent node, but not great...lots of above-grade parking garages where there ought to be other buildings. I suspect it'll have a huge parking ratio but can't find stats (appears to be too early for much information).
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  #96  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 8:54 PM
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  #97  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Or stuff nearby like this, which isn't much better: https://www.google.ca/maps/@33.09945.../data=!3m1!1e3
Looking around there I found this sad-looking bus stop:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0795...7i16384!8i8192
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  #98  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 11:27 PM
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Chinese nationals aren't a significant contributor to Toronto and Vancouver suburban skylines? Absurd. Just as Miami's highrise development is largely dependent on the economic fears of wealthy Latin Americans, Vancouver's development is dependent on Chinese money exiting China/HK.
If all Chinese immigration and investment were short off tomorrow. Toronto and Vancouver would still be buildings suburban skyline at the same rate they are currently simply because highrises are the only type of affordable housing in both cities and highrises and midrises are pretty much the only type of housing built in both metros.

If you disagree with me, where else would Toronto and Vancouver house both their growing populations? sprawl is simply not an option anymore for either city
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  #99  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 11:44 PM
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Another cool short of suburban Vancouver skylines


Vancouver, BC
by clearbrook4, on Flickr May 2019

In the coming years, all the tallest buildings in the metro will be in the suburbs not downtown.
https://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?searchID=86920258
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  #100  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2019, 3:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
Looking around there I found this sad-looking bus stop:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0795...7i16384!8i8192
Good find. Jesus...they must have been laughing when they installed that stop.
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