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  #15981  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 5:38 PM
Denscity Denscity is offline
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Great response. Now please proceed to tell me what exactly about my comment you disagree with or believe is a falsehood.
I just don't believe anyone should live in a place they dispise so much and should keep searching for a new province until they find happiness.
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  #15982  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 5:49 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is online now
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Originally Posted by accord1999 View Post
130 MW is not exactly large by any standard.

And really, what is the wealth generation value of buying foreign (most likely Chinese) solar panels to generate local electricity? Made even worse by the generation profile of solar that fails at precisely peak Alberta demand, cold winter evenings.
Ok. Keep your head in the sand. If you can't extrapolate what's happening right in front of you, I don't know how to help.

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  #15983  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 5:56 PM
accord1999 accord1999 is online now
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Ok. Keep your head in the sand. If you can't extrapolate what's happening right in front of you, I don't know how to help.
I'm very familiar with the topic. How well has "solar" worked out for Ontario?

https://www.guelphmercury.com/news-s...off-this-year/

How about Germany?

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news...se-competition


If you're not building solar panels to export, then how do you generate wealth from it?
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  #15984  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:05 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is online now
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Originally Posted by accord1999 View Post
I'm very familiar with the topic. How well has "solar" worked out for Ontario?

https://www.guelphmercury.com/news-s...off-this-year/

How about Germany?

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news...se-competition


If you're not building solar panels to export, then how do you generate wealth from it?
Southern Alberta has some of the best solar coverage in the country. Prices to generate the power have already been pegged at extremely low levels. The wealth comes from jobs and exporting the power (which isn't dug out of the ground once and gone forever).

Why does it have to be about manufacturing?

But please, keep going.
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  #15985  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:12 PM
accord1999 accord1999 is online now
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Southern Alberta has some of the best solar coverage in the country.
Which is mainly because Canada is terrible for solar; Alberta is inferior to most of the USA, especially the SW.



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The wealth comes from jobs
Short-lived installation jobs?

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and exporting the power (which isn't dug out of the ground once and gone forever).
To who? Hydro rich BC? Small Saskatchewan or Montana?

Even mighty Hydro Quebec only "earned $780 million from exporting 34.4 terawatt hours (TWh), up from 32.6 TWh a year ago."

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/hydro-qu...orts-1.1026011

And HQ has super-cheap hydro that can be sold at high-demand periods like winter evenings.
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  #15986  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:14 PM
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Chadillaccc Chadillaccc is online now
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Originally Posted by accord1999 View Post
Which is mainly because Canada is terrible for solar; Alberta is inferior to most of the USA, especially the SW.
And yet superior to the rest of our country in this respect. Which of course is the point of this conversation.
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  #15987  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Chadillaccc View Post
And yet superior to the rest of our country in this respect. Which of course is the point of this conversation.
All that means is solar is an even worse proposition in the rest of Canada, not that it's a good one for Alberta.
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  #15988  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by accord1999 View Post
To who? Hydro rich BC? Small Saskatchewan or Montana?

Even mighty Hydro Quebec only "earned $780 million from exporting 34.4 terawatt hours (TWh), up from 32.6 TWh a year ago."
Get yourself carbon free first. Everyone will need more electricity as transportation and heating move to more electrification.

Grids interconnect. BC sells power to California. You can too!

Or, keep digging the hole you're in and see if that helps.
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  #15989  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by accord1999 View Post
All that means is solar is an even worse proposition in the rest of Canada, not that it's a good one for Alberta.
So the investors in that project are what, idiots?
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  #15990  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:26 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Get yourself carbon free first. Everyone will need more electricity as transportation and heating move to more electrification.
If you use solar at Alberta latitudes to decarbonize heating, then you're going to need unimaginable amounts of storage.

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So the investors in that project are what, idiots?
However, he said, based on recent auctions for government infrastructure projects, the cost is closer to $70 MW/h.

Even this supposedly cheaper price is higher than the typical electricity (not including transmission and regulatory) retail rate in Alberta. So subsidies. Once they dry up, then so does solar. Just look at Ontario without the eye-popping FITs, or the steep decline of new Chinese solar installations after cutting its subsidies mid-2018. It went from 24 GW in H1 2018 to 11.4 GW in H1 2019.

https://af.reuters.com/article/energ.../idAFL4N25J0LR
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  #15991  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:36 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Southern Alberta has some of the best solar coverage in the country. Prices to generate the power have already been pegged at extremely low levels. The wealth comes from jobs and exporting the power (which isn't dug out of the ground once and gone forever).

Why does it have to be about manufacturing?

But please, keep going.
Agree with this statement. As we have seen the phenomenal growth of Solar Farms in Alberta along with wind farm expansions and the deep well geothermal we should be able to export some of that power. Now if we can make power transmitting more efficient.

We were talking about the GoC plan to have buildings carbon neutral by 2050.

What is need to make this happen?. If we use the guideline that are now in place, Quebec buildings are close now as they use electric heat from hydro power. But the question came up that if we calculated the GHG production in creating just the copper lines into the construction of new building and new transmittion lines, we would be way off.

When we look at Carbon Neutral homes the offset for the manufacture and transportation of the products blows that neutrality out the window.

Climate change is also adding to the increase to building structures and envelopes will have to be taken into account. GoC is talking about the need to design for about 20% more wind and snow loading.

Mechanically we are talking about decoupling heating and cooling. as well as using more outside air. (which will need to be heated in Canada). Using more PV and Water based solar panels for heating and cooling loads.

and the one question that came up was how will this be paid for. Then we heard about Pace for energy efficiency.
It was brought into Legislation in January but may have been suspended by the UCP. (we don't know yet).
https://www.paceab.ca/
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  #15992  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:40 PM
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  #15993  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:57 PM
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The Alberta Subsidies stopped when the UCP took over. The new power projects were not getting subsidised by the GoA. They may be getting GoC money through Infrastructure funding.
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  #15994  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 7:45 PM
DoubleK DoubleK is offline
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Originally Posted by Airboy View Post
The Alberta Subsidies stopped when the UCP took over.
The Alberta 'subsidy' was a brilliant design. I don't think the province would ever have paid a penny.
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  #15995  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 8:41 PM
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The future of Canadian Power besides specific designs to take advantage of geographic resources (dams, geothermal) has always been nuclear. I wonder how much pollution we could reduce if we built a power plant in alberta to power oil extraction.
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  #15996  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 8:59 PM
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Is carbon fibre Alberta’s next profit gusher?

BY CHRIS TURNER
November 4, 2019
FALL 2019 ISSUE


As the oil sands become a harder sell, bitumen may find profitable future in carbon-fibre-framed EVs


The Prius Prime is Toyota’s first plug-in electric hybrid car for the mass market in the United States and a flag-bearer for the company’s future. In June, the Japanese automaker announced plans to have all-electric versions of every vehicle in its lineup and draw half of its sales from a mix of electrified vehicles by 2025. Building all those EVs introduces new design challenges for automakers. The batteries are by far the most expensive parts in an EV, so this places a premium on reducing the car’s overall weight; a lighter car means fewer batteries required to make it race down the highway and a lower sticker price. And so it’s notable that the Prius Prime’s rear hatch differs from those of standard Priuses in one important aspect: it’s made from carbon fibre.

Carbon fibre is a material perfectly suited to electric vehicles. Manufactured from long strands of carbon blended with plastic resin (think fibreglass, with carbon replacing the glass), it’s far stronger than steel – up to 10 times as strong – and much lighter. Plus it doesn’t corrode. Owing to these advantages, carbon fibre has been coveted by car makers since it was first introduced in the early 1980s. Because of its steep price, though, it has until recently been used primarily in racing cars and next-generation prototypes. (Carbon fibre costs as much as US$7 per pound wholesale, compared to about 40 cents per pound for steel or 80 cents for aluminum.) The explosive growth in electric vehicle sales, however, creates a unique and potentially enormous market for carbon fibre – especially if the manufacturing costs of the stuff can be slashed somehow.

And this is where Alberta’s oil sands come in. Alberta produces nearly three million barrels of bitumen from the oil sands each day – heavy oil in need of expensive and energy-intensive processing to be turned into transportation fuel. The industry faces an uncertain and perilous future as the high cost and large carbon footprint of its product becomes harder and harder to sell as demand for oil begins to level off and eventually decline, in part due to the rise of emissions-free technologies such as electric cars. Might there be a place for bitumen instead in the carbon-fibre frames of those vehicles?

This was the question Alberta Innovates, the Alberta government’s research arm, aimed to answer with its Bitumen Beyond Combustion program, launched three years ago to begin exploring new commercial uses for bitumen. The program’s research identified a range of potential new markets, including asphalt for paving and the production of vanadium, a metal present in relatively abundant quantities in bitumen and in increasing demand as a component in new battery technology. But nothing else so far has shown the “major mid- to long-term potential” that carbon fibre has. What’s more, its greatest weakness as a transport fuel – its heaviness, owing to the very large carbon molecules that comprise it – becomes an asset.

“Bitumen is a bigger molecule, and you are competing with lighter oils as transportation fuel,” John Zhou, vice president of clean energy at Alberta Innovates, explains. “You are always at a disadvantage. But when you are making big molecules like carbon fibre, that high carbon in the bitumen compared with other oil becomes a competitive advantage.”

To transform bitumen into the lighter crude oils that are refined into gasoline and transportation fuels, oil sands operations either add a lighter petroleum product called diluent to their bitumen to make it flow down a pipeline to a distant heavy oil refinery or use costly, energy-intensive upgrading facilities that “crack” the bitumen into smaller molecules, turning it into synthetic crude. In recent years, oil sands companies have been developing “partial upgrading” technology, which cracks off a smaller piece of the bitumen molecule and allows it to be shipped without diluent. One of the heavy carbon molecules cracked off the raw bitumen is called asphaltene, and it shows enormous promise as a feedstock for producing the long carbon fibres that go into the lightweight, ultra-strong carbon-fibre panels used in cars like the Toyota Prius Prime.


Asphaltenes make up around 15 to 18% of a typical barrel of bitumen. Produce 100 barrels of bitumen and send them through a partial upgrader, in other words, and you have 15 to 18 barrels of asphaltene on your hands. The world’s current supply of carbon fibre is about 100,000 tonnes per year, a total that oil sands operators could easily exceed with the widespread use of partial upgrading.

“The supply is not the issue,” Zhou says. The big question is whether carbon fibre produced from bitumen could cut carbon fibre costs to the point where the material made sense not just for a flagship Prius but for Honda Civics and Ford Fusions. “If you can reduce the cost of carbon fibre by 50% or more, you will have a chance to get into medium-priced vehicles. So you will open up a much greater market.”

It’s an enticing possibility, especially for an oil sands industry battered by low prices, fleeing investment capital and a barrage of criticism over its expanding greenhouse gas emissions and other environmental impacts. “It’s early days in looking at the potential for carbon fibre production from bitumen; however, we think there’s value in looking at different ways of optimizing our barrels – value in the traditional sense and in potential environmental benefits,” says Carrie Fanai, who is leading Suncor’s participation in the carbon fibre project at Alberta Innovates. With partial upgrading technology perhaps only three years away from commercial-scale operation, oil sands companies will soon have stronger motivation to find uses for the by-products of bitumen processing.



“When you are making big molecules like carbon fibre, that high carbon in the bitumen becomes a competitive advantage.”
–John Zhou, Alberta Innovates
The carbon fibre market, though, remains a young and volatile one, and that means any plans regarding its future role come freighted with caveats. Cecilia Gee, an analyst with Lux Research who tracks the carbon fibre market, explains that carbon fibre is at present a niche product, and many factors beyond the price and availability of the raw material, in the automotive market and beyond, will determine future demand. At present, the use of carbon fibre in EVs, for example, is limited by a lack of standardized production and supply chain certainty, and as much as 70% of the cost associated with using carbon fibre comes from the high price of manufacturing and installing components made from carbon fibre – not from the cost of the raw material the oil sands might one day supply. Meanwhile, plummeting battery prices are taking some of the pressure off EV manufacturers to pay a premium to reduce the weight of their vehicles. BMW, for example, recently announced it will no longer be using carbon fibre in some of its electric cars as it expands production.

“Is there an opportunity for the oil sands? Yes,” Gee says. “Are there a lot of unknowns about that future? Also yes. But if they have the opportunity to make things more circular, more green, why not?”

In any case, Alberta’s carbon fibre industry is a long way from supplying frames for hundreds of thousands of Civics; at present, it’s not even an industry. In the wake of the Bitumen Beyond Combustion program’s final report in January 2018, Alberta Innovates freed up $2 million in seed money for a handful of initiatives, one of which is a laboratory at the University of Alberta now working on developing an industrial process for converting bitumen-derived asphaltenes into carbon fibre. The early results have been so promising that Alberta Innovates has already connected the lab with industry heavyweights like BASF and Mitsubishi Chemical. A representative from SGL, a market leader in carbon fibre manufacturing, has paid multiple visits to the lab and has made plans to connect the researchers with similar projects at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, the U.S. Department of Energy’s top energy research lab.

...

https://www.corporateknights.com/cha...sher-15728660/
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  #15997  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 9:00 PM
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The future of Canadian Power besides specific designs to take advantage of geographic resources (dams, geothermal) has always been nuclear. I wonder how much pollution we could reduce if we built a power plant in alberta to power oil extraction.
There was talk for a number of years to use a NPS but it was to expensive and the enviros put up quite a stink. most site are going cogeneration now.

There is a lot of potential for deep geothermal in Alberta BC and Yukon. Some power generation, will be watching the Rockie Mountain House site to see how well that works.
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  #15998  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Airboy View Post
There was talk for a number of years to use a NPS but it was to expensive and the enviros put up quite a stink. most site are going cogeneration now.

There is a lot of potential for deep geothermal in Alberta BC and Yukon. Some power generation, will be watching the Rockie Mountain House site to see how well that works.
Its funny how enviros say clean up your act but then make a stink when you actually try to do it. Nuclear is incredibly clean and is great for nations with lots of free land to bury waste in. By bury I mean build a deep underground facility.
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  #15999  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 9:23 PM
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https://www.cangea.ca/albertageothermal.html

Geo has the potential of putting thousands of abandoned and shut in wells back to use.

If the UCP wants to put the O&G guys back to work maybe they should be looking at this. Hell the optics alone would be great. But I cannot see this current group being that forward thinking.

Here's a thought. give a tax break to the O&G company that can develop this commercially.

Oh wait that's being done now. by the Feds and the last government.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...rmal-1.5255420

https://eavor.com/
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  #16000  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 12:51 AM
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Don't try using the summon feature on your Tesla in BC, your insurance might not be valid. I'm surprised the car was so bad at lane-keeping when you cna clearly see the lines:

Video of a driverless Tesla moving at a brisk walking pace at a mall parking lot in Richmond, B.C. — sometimes in the wrong lane — raises questions about what is and isn't legal when regulations don't come close to capturing the advances or potential dangers of self-driving vehicles...

...Adding to the confusion is a statement from the province's Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure, which said driverless vehicles are banned on provincial roads, despite the growing number of autonomous-capable Teslas being sold in B.C.

"Autonomous and driverless vehicles are not currently permitted on B.C. highways, as reflected by federal regulations. These cars do not currently qualify for insurance, and driving an uninsured vehicle on a highway or roadway is one reason these vehicles are not permitted on B.C. roadways," read the statement.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...-b-c-1.5349855
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