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  #61  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 3:36 PM
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It’s people with this holier than thou attitude towards raising children that turn me off of the idea of having kids at all. I’m not sure whether we will anyway, but if I actually believed that the moment I had children they needed to be the only thing in my life that mattered, then I wouldn’t even consider it.
to the extent that you can discern someone's personality over an internet web-forum, you may not be strong parenthood material.

to do it well requires a fair bit of self-sacrifice, which does not appear to be your strong suit, again from your online postings.

that said, few things can change a man more than becoming a dad, and things that you believe to be 100% true about yourself today can be turned completely upside down in just 9 months.

i'm living proof of this. just read this post of mine from over a decade ago. and now look at me.

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i myself can't see much upside to fathering a child. i'm a very self-centered person and i need my free time to be MY TIME. i don't begrudge anyone else who wants to jump into the parenthood game, but i know myself way too well to know that i wouldn't be any good at it at all. i can barely, and i mean BARELY, take care of myself. being responsible for a whole other human life that's completely dependent on me? no way in hell, that would just be a monstrous train-wreck.
one of mother nature's stranger jokes is that a lot of men have no idea how much they want to be a father until they actually become one.

i'm a textbook example of this phenomenon.
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  #62  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 3:42 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Realistically, some small town outside of London or London itself(I am a lazy American who doesn't know another language).

I would live in Dubai for a few years work for work.

If I could travel when I wanted, I would move to Japan. A smaller town outside of Tokyo.
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  #63  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 3:47 PM
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as for the thread topic, i wouldn't want to live anywhere other than chicago or milwaukee these days.

i've got two little kids and their two sets of grandparents live in those two cities. geographic proximity to blood trumps all other considerations for me.

when the kids are older, or when the grandparents have passed away, or whatever, i suppose anything is possible, but i kind of have this sense that i will be born, live, and die in chicago, just like the 4 generations that preceded me.

this grass is green enough for me.
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  #64  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post

that said, few things can change a man more than becoming a dad, and things that you believe to be 100% true about yourself today can be turned completely upside down in just 9 months.

i'm living proof of this. just read this post of mine from over a decade ago. and now look at me.



one of mother nature's stranger jokes is that a lot of men have no idea how much they want to be a father until they actually become one.

i'm a textbook example of this phenomenon.
Even with my snip of the first part, a lot of people will probably find this condescending.

(You probably know where I stand on this, so you know I am not disagreeing with or slagging you.)
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  #65  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 3:50 PM
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Even with my snip of the first part, a lot of people will probably find this condescending.
if people find the truth condescending, that's on them, not me.
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  #66  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 3:52 PM
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I’ve always thought it was because they didn’t like black people.
I am really getting tired of the laziness of this argument. Yes, racism helped fuel white flight from our cities. Racism of individuals, companies, and the government.

But historically speaking, people forget this was the most massive change ever. For the first time in HISTORY, you could live far away from your job. You didn't have to live close to your job or services because of the car. For the first time in history, you could afford a decent-sized home with plenty of space. The suburbs were too tempting to turn down for a country that never had that option before. And then the crime in the US exploded in the late 60s...who the hell would want to live there if they had a choice?

Last edited by jtown,man; Oct 23, 2019 at 4:18 PM.
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  #67  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:10 PM
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white flight from US cities had a variety of push/pull factors.

pull: the allure of the new, a bigger house/yard, etc.

push: the presence of black people, increasing crime, etc.


anyone who attempts to boil it all down to one lone reason is a fool.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 23, 2019 at 4:20 PM.
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  #68  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
to the extent that you can discern someone's personality over an internet web-forum, you may not be strong parenthood material.

to do it well requires a fair bit of self-sacrifice, which does not appear to be your strong suit, again from your online postings.
.
It's not discussed that often, but paradoxically having kids is also an ego thing - you're reproducing little people who to at least some degree are mini-versions of you.

Part of what's rewarding is sharing little bits of yourself, your likes and personality traits (I didn't really mean biologically though obviously that is there too) with individuals who are basically clean slates.

Like initiating your kids to stamp collecting and seeing her become as passionate about stamps as you are. (If you're a stamp collector.)

Or watching Wisconsin Badgers football games with your son...

You don't have to cease being yourself when you become a parent. You just have to learn to share a lot more of yourself (both materially and psychologically) with someone else. That's both extremely demanding and extremely fulfilling.
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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:22 PM
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Regardless, if I were to have children it would be on the basis that certain things are not to be compromised for the sake of achieving some sort of parenting-book ideal of a childhood environment. Especially when they’re going to be too young to remember the first several years and at boarding school for the last several.
The early years of a child's life are extremely important in terms of intellectual and psychological development, even if they don't have any active memories from that period.
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
white flight from US cities had a variety of push/pull factors.

pull: the allure of the new, a bigger house/yard, etc.

push: the presence of black people, increasing crime, etc.


anyone who attempts to boil it all down to one lone reason is a fool.
And many parents saw (or still see) the presence of large numbers of poor, struggling people - who in much of the U.S. are disproportionately black - as potentially detrimental to the well-being of their kids.

As American society changed and many African-Americans became more affluent, many many black families have been moving out of these areas as well.
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Last edited by Acajack; Oct 23, 2019 at 4:45 PM.
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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Realistically, some small town outside of London or London itself(I am a lazy American who doesn't know another language).

I would live in Dubai for a few years work for work.

If I could travel when I wanted, I would move to Japan. A smaller town outside of Tokyo.
There is no point in moving to Dubai as a US citizen. None. Europeans and others only do it because you can be well paid with a very low tax rate.
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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:38 PM
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I am really getting tired of the laziness of this argument. Yes, racism helped fuel white flight from our cities. Racism of individuals, companies, and the government.
I was being snarky.
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  #73  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 5:03 PM
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Ideally? Some postcard worthy European town, specifically where isnt really important.

Just a quaint and cozy little place with a pub and friendly people.

Who knows if that exists really anywhere but that would be the ideal.
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 5:10 PM
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London, Paris, or Rome.
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  #75  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 5:22 PM
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There are so many places around the world where I'd love to live (for a while), that it's very hard to choose.
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  #76  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 5:30 PM
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Back to the original question:

It would depend on a few factors.

1. Is this a cost is no object thing? Or do I actually have to be able to afford living there?
2. How long am I there for? A couple of years is one thing, but a lifetime is a whole other ballgame.
3. Coming back to point #1, will it accommodate my spouse's career, or does point #1 apply there too?

Since I'm not terribly adventurous and I'm no polyglot, English speaking countries and places rank highly. Also, being close to home is nice - having to spend thousands of dollars and days getting from point A to B to see family factors in there.

1. San Diego.
Pro: weather, close enough to home, can explore that region of the USA easily.
Con: expensive (but not a factor if point #1 applies).

2. New York City.
Pro: one of the top-tier cities in the world. Very close to home, relatively speaking. Good base to explore the Northeastern US.
Con: Again, expensive. Weather is not a selling point.

3. London, UK
Pro: top-tier world city. Good jumping off point to explore Europe. Not terrible for getting back home.
Con: Expensive (see a pattern?) Weather again, is not a selling point.

4. Auckland, NZ (or close enough in the North Island, NZ)
Pro: Weather. If I'm betting on a place that's going to survive the 21st century well, NZ is high on that list. You don't starve, go thirsty, sit in the dark and cold if bad things happen.
Con: Far. Like, really far from home. You can't really explore much from there, except NZ and Australia.

The older I get, the more I find that I'd like a place to live well instead of high. I'd choose #2 and #3 for the big-city lifestyle, but I'd imagine that would wear thin eventually.

Given what I value in life these days, I'd probably say that I live in as close to paradise as can be found on planet Earth right now (winter excepted).

Better to visit the 'exciting' places as a tourist and enjoy all the benefits without having the daily grind destroy the joy of living in those places.
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 5:39 PM
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I’ve always thought it was because they didn’t like black people. And I’m not technically from the US originally, I just moved there when I was very young and stayed until the end of my 20s. Beside the point, I know.

Regardless, if I were to have children it would be on the basis that certain things are not to be compromised for the sake of achieving some sort of parenting-book ideal of a childhood environment. Especially when they’re going to be too young to remember the first several years and at boarding school for the last several.
lol remember that you’ll likely have to work/agree/compromise with a partner...the dynamics of which OFTEN blindside people...
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 6:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
to the extent that you can discern someone's personality over an internet web-forum, you may not be strong parenthood material.

to do it well requires a fair bit of self-sacrifice, which does not appear to be your strong suit, again from your online postings.

that said, few things can change a man more than becoming a dad, and things that you believe to be 100% true about yourself today can be turned completely upside down in just 9 months.

i'm living proof of this. just read this post of mine from over a decade ago. and now look at me.


one of mother nature's stranger jokes is that a lot of men have no idea how much they want to be a father until they actually become one.

i'm a textbook example of this phenomenon.
That's *you*.

There are probably hundreds of millions of detached fathers out there. Lots of men don't change, and there is an enormous number of deadbeat dads in this country and around the world. You can't take your epiphany and extrapolate it to what men think. On the contrary, there are a lot of men who probably wanted to be fathers but had no idea how much they did not. Just go look at the statistics of the ever rising number of men who abandon their family.

I love my child, but I don't think having one really changed me and I don't feel guilty about it either. I simply learned to love another human being as much as I love myself.
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  #79  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 6:58 PM
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I suspect Monaco would be fantastic for about 2 weeks but then I'd start going stir crazy.
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  #80  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 6:59 PM
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That's *you*.

There are probably hundreds of millions of detached fathers out there. Lots of men don't change, an enormous number of deadbeat dads in this country and around the world. You can't take your 'epiphany' and extrapolate it to what men think.
Yeah but even if it exists, no one rational would call that desirable, laudable or even defensible.
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