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  #41  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 4:46 PM
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You said you'd rather live in a country with a higher life expectancy but why would I care what the average life expectancy is when I know I will already surpass it baring a freak accident?
Obdano, again, it's not us, but the entire population. I, for instance, live in a country with a much lower GDP per capita than both the US or W. Europe but I had no intention to move there because I'm doing ok down here. On the other hand, many of my countrymen might want to look for better conditions.

US society has many issues that doesn't allow many people to live long and healthy years. Stress at work, lack of preventive medicine, huge debts, lack of social stability, etc. etc. Good for you that you are above all that, but millions of your countrymen face those challenges.

That's why despite the US edging Western Europe GDP per capita wise, it lags when it come to life expectancy, for instance. Moreover, the poorer sections of society tends to do worse in the US than in W. Europe. What's the point for a society to produce a huge number of billionaires when huge sections of society doesn't profit of it at all?
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  #42  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 5:00 PM
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Obdano, again, it's not us, but the entire population.
You have a misinterpretation of what America is my man. All the talk you have heard about "america being divided" that is the norm. In fact the only time we have not been divided is during during WW2 and that is largely a lie as there was a whole bunch of people who were not cool with the war effort.

Just as you probably dont concern yourself with the poor of southern Italy, I also dont concern myself with the poor of Camden New Jersey. Might as well be another planet. I do not live in the same "society" as them. Sure they are represented in our republic on a philosophical level but their lives and culture are completely alien to my own as mine is to them.

America is always divided, go read what people like Jefferson himself wrote about his other founding fathers. The idea of a unified America is a myth. We may punch with a solid fist when somebody messes with us but we are not a single people never were never will be.
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  #43  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 5:06 PM
Chisouthside Chisouthside is offline
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Americans have Stockholm syndrome with being worked to the bone.
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  #44  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 5:18 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by Chisouthside View Post
Americans have Stockholm syndrome with being worked to the bone.
Should we say that Europeans are lazy? or maybe its just a cultural difference?
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  #45  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
You have a misinterpretation of what America is my man. All the talk you have heard about "america being divided" that is the norm. In fact the only time we have not been divided is during during WW2 and that is largely a lie as there was a whole bunch of people who were not cool with the war effort.

Just as you probably dont concern yourself with the poor of southern Italy, I also dont concern myself with the poor of Camden New Jersey. Might as well be another planet. I do not live in the same "society" as them. Sure they are represented in our republic on a philosophical level but their lives and culture are completely alien to my own as mine is to them.

America is always divided, go read what people like Jefferson himself wrote about his other founding fathers. The idea of a unified America is a myth. We may punch with a solid fist when somebody messes with us but we are not a single people never were never will be.
Although in my opinion empathy is a very important trace of personality, in fact our very social cohesion (and prosperity) are largely dependent on that, the discussion is not only philosophycal as you're painting. Unlikely in southern Italy, horrible conditions in Camden (or the ghetto closest to you) can literally explode on your face if things get ugly enough.

Look at Chile: continuous economic growth didn't benefit most of society and they are in the middle of a constitutional crisis. Not even a football match can be hosted there anymore. And that's only a mild crisis. Throughout history there are plenty of bloody examples where the entire society is turned upside down.
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  #46  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 5:33 PM
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6,000 from France, 5,000 from Britain in 2017. That makes only 4% of immigrants in Canada. Those are hardly large numbers.
Correct though consider that the vast majority of those French go to Quebec which has 8 million people. And France is at the top or near the top of immigrant source countries for Quebec most years. All of the other top 10 source countries for immigration to Quebec are non-Western, generally developing world countries.

Admittedly the 5000 people from the UK moving to Canada annually are spread out amongst a much larger population (about 28 million people).
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  #47  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Should we say that Europeans are lazy? or maybe its just a cultural difference?
They are not lazy, but have different priorities. They could work long hours and make a higher income, but could less free hours to enjoy life and take care of their health.

BTW, W. Europeans have an extremely high productivity per hour worked.

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Correct though consider that the vast majority of those French go to Quebec which has 8 million people. And France is at the top or near the top of immigrant source countries for Quebec most years. All of the other top 10 source countries for immigration to Quebec are non-Western, generally developing world countries.

Admittedly the 5000 people from the UK moving to Canada annually are spread out amongst a much larger population (about 28 million people).
But we can look from another angle: France, out of a population of 67 million, are expelling only 6,000 year to Canada/Quebec. The point stands: Europe (or other White populations in South America, South Africa or Oceania) will not be reliable source of immigrants to the US/Canada.
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  #48  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Although in my opinion empathy is a very important trace of personality, in fact our very social cohesion (and prosperity) are largely dependent on that, the discussion is not only philosophycal as you're painting. Unlikely in southern Italy, horrible conditions in Camden (or the ghetto closest to you) can literally explode on your face if things get ugly enough.

Look at Chile: continuous economic growth didn't benefit most of society and they are in the middle of a constitutional crisis. Not even a football match can be hosted there anymore. And that's only a mild crisis. Throughout history there are plenty of bloody examples where the entire society is turned upside down.
But they really dont work like that, I understand if an Englishman in England feels a great sense of cohesion and sympathy for other Englishmen even some for the Welsh and Scotts and Irish too ...sometimes.

But do you get that same feeling for French? Greeks? Poles?

I doubt it.

Americans dont have that kind of sense there is not an "american" identity that people all flock to. The Americans view their national interest in a way native Europeans simply dont understand. We see each other much the way different European states in the EU see each other not the way people within France or Germany or England might see each other. So while intellectually the average person "cares" about the poor as a statistic but they "care" in the same way you care about poor Polish villagers.
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  #49  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:04 PM
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But they really dont work like that, I understand if an Englishman in England feels a great sense of cohesion and sympathy for other Englishmen even some for the Welsh and Scotts and Irish too ...sometimes.

But do you get that same feeling for French? Greeks? Poles?

I doubt it.

Americans dont have that kind of sense there is not an "american" identity that people all flock to. The Americans view their national interest in a way native Europeans simply dont understand. We see each other much the way different European states in the EU see each other not the way people within France or Germany or England might see each other. So while intellectually the average person "cares" about the poor as a statistic but they "care" in the same way you care about poor Polish villagers.
What is this based on? you seem to be eager to extrapolate huge generalities from your personal experiences and attitudes, and it's a little weird you view people in New Jersey in the same way you think someone in England views the Polish.
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  #50  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post



But we can look from another angle: France, out of a population of 67 million, are expelling only 6,000 year to Canada/Quebec. The point stands: Europe (or other White populations in South America, South Africa or Oceania) will not be reliable source of immigrants to the US/Canada.
Yes and no. Not that I really care, but Quebec gets about 5000 immigrants a year from China and 4000 from India, both of which have over 1 billion people.

Relative to base population, even if the percentage is small it's still a far greater share of the French who are moving to Quebec every year than the share of the Chinese, Indians or most other nationalities who are.

In addition to those "immigrants", we also probably have in the range of 3-4 times that number of French who come here to study in our universities.
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  #51  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:17 PM
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What is this based on? you seem to be eager to extrapolate huge generalities from your personal experiences and attitudes, and it's a little weird you view people in New Jersey in the same way you think someone in England views the Polish.
Do you really think that Americans are as culturally and socially cohesive as a European nation?

You think you think and feel about all Americans the way a Dutch person thinks of other dutch.

(You dont)
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  #52  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:24 PM
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Yes and no. Not that I really care, but Quebec gets about 5000 immigrants a year from China and 4000 from India, both of which have over 1 billion people.

Relative to base population, even if the percentage is small it's still a far greater share of the French who are moving to Quebec every year than the share of the Chinese, Indians or most other nationalities who are.

In addition to those "immigrants", we also probably have in the range of 3-4 times that number of French who come here to study in our universities.
Based on my experience with French living overseas is that they tend to be expats..who plan on returning home at some point...much like Americans and Canadians living abroad. Chinese and Indians emigrate with plans on living in their adopted country permanently.
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  #53  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:45 PM
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Based on my experience with French living overseas is that they tend to be expats..who plan on returning home at some point...much like Americans and Canadians living abroad. Chinese and Indians emigrate with plans on living in their adopted country permanently.
To some degree this is true. Even British immigrants to Australia return home in a few years (5?) in a proportion of 50%. This is similar to the proportion of French immigrants who go back home after living in Quebec for a while.

That said, in Quebec we have a bit of a different dynamic in that immigrants like Chinese and Indians (generally more oriented towards English) may not go back home, but they do often move on from Quebec to other parts of Canada or the U.S.

Immigrants who are most likely to stick around in Quebec are those from the Middle East, North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America and Haiti.
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  #54  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:46 PM
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Do you really think that Americans are as culturally and socially cohesive as a European nation?

You think you think and feel about all Americans the way a Dutch person thinks of other dutch.

(You dont)
How do you know how the Dutch feel about their fellow countrymen? I think your argument is pretty bogus. Americans are some of the most patriotic people on earth (for better or worse). I've never heard of a Texan say s/he wasn't going to cheer for Michael Phelps in the olympics because he's from Maryland. Preposterous. There is an immense amount of national pride here--'from sea to shining sea' and what not.
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  #55  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 6:55 PM
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Based on my experience with French living overseas is that they tend to be expats..who plan on returning home at some point...much like Americans and Canadians living abroad. Chinese and Indians emigrate with plans on living in their adopted country permanently.
On SSC, there were two French forumers living in Montreal, none of them on permanently. In any case, 20,000 or so Western Europeans get into Canada yearly it's a very low figure, regardless from Canadian or Western European point of view.
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  #56  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 7:18 PM
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How do you know how the Dutch feel about their fellow countrymen? I think your argument is pretty bogus. Americans are some of the most patriotic people on earth (for better or worse). I've never heard of a Texan say s/he wasn't going to cheer for Michael Phelps in the olympics because he's from Maryland. Preposterous. There is an immense amount of national pride here--'from sea to shining sea' and what not.
Sorry, are you not from Chicago? I'm having trouble understanding these strange symbols you're using. Must be from out of state. Damn foreigner!
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  #57  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 7:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Chisouthside View Post
Americans have Stockholm syndrome with being worked to the bone.
The one thing I'll say for Europe is that they have much better labor relations - workers benefits, paid vacation etc. America is totally backwards in this area compared to its first world peers.

However, for the talented, ambitious and hard working, America offers infinitely better opportunities to escape the rat race altogether
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  #58  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 7:32 PM
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The one thing I'll say for Europe is that they have much better labor relations - workers benefits, paid vacation etc. America is totally backwards in this area compared to its first world peers.

However, for the talented, ambitious and hard working, America offers infinitely better opportunities to escape the rat race altogether
Agreed. If you want to be middle class, go to Europe. If you want to be rich, come to America.
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  #59  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 7:44 PM
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Agreed. If you want to be middle class, go to Europe. If you want to be rich, come to America.


https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-...ries-mobility/



https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...-their-country
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  #60  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 7:56 PM
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I agree that mobility is upward mobility harder and also still think that my statement was accurate.

First, the U.S.'s immigration system biases our legal immigrant populations to the most high paying jobs. Unless the immigrant is an asylum seeker, or someone with an illegal status, the person is virtually guaranteed to be earning a wage that is above the median income of the population as a whole, due to the requirements for obtaining a work permit. Second, related to the first point, they are also more likely than Americans as a whole to be working in tech or finance, which are the two industries that have produced the most millionaires over the past 20-30 years. There simply is no equivalent anywhere else in the world (except China) for the number of rich people that have been created through technology in the U.S. over the past three decades.
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