Canada's Panamerica Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I can read most French material pretty well. Better than my listening to speech in French.

Here is an example of it: http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/ca...uille-d-erable

This one actually refers to Canada. It's not always the case with these discussions.

The guy who came up with the equation: Q=(F)+(GB)+(USA)2 - R + C is Yvan Lamonde, who actually wrote a book on the topic saying that Québécois were way more American than they thought they were.

There are lots of articles by him or quoting him.

Another interesting guy is Joseph Yvon Thériault. He's on the other side of the argument. Originally from NE New Brunswick but his studies are very focused on Quebec. He used to live in my neighbourhood (he is now in Montreal) and I used to take the bus with him on occasion when he was a professor at the University of Ottawa.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

With a nod to the original intent of this thread, can one safely assume that "américanité" doesn't refer to the two continents, i.e. the Americas, but rather refers to the U.S.?

It's fairly complex to deconstruct. It's that and it isn't that.

Obviously being prosperous northern North Americans people in Quebec have more in common with other Canadians and Americans.

But there is also a latent sense of "being in this together vs. the gringos" with the Latin Americans. You know, that we're challenging the anglo dominance of the new world each in our own way.

I suspect that the enthusiasm from learning Spanish in Quebec is at least partially related to this sentiment, to counter the dominant image of America/l'Amérique as overwhelmingly anglo (with maybe a tiny francophone rump - when people actually think about it at all).

A number of Québécois singers have been singing in Spanish (or at least including segments of songs in Spanish) for quite some time, long before it became fashionable to do so.

I suppose that this is related to the same sentiment. That openness to the world doesn't have to stop with English, and should go beyond it. Being in the Americas, the next logical stop on the journey is Spanish.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by esquire

... urbanites who hunt are rarer than hens' teeth here.

Here and everywhere else, I suspect.

Anyone who likes hunting is unlikely to be a fan of the ultra-urban downtown lifestyle and vice versa.

Also, I have to strongly second everyone who said that the importance of the gun in hunting is one of the differences between the strong hunting culture here and the strong hunting culture south of the border. (Incidentally, my hunting weapon is the crossbow.)

Something else that people do in the US that almost no one does here is that they'll go in the woods to shoot things (inanimated, obviously...) for fun. Using the gun is the end goal of the activity, not catching a prey. It seems to be a big thing in northern NH, usually with younger guys, but maybe that's local, because now that I think of it, I haven't really seen as much of a "gun culture" in other New England states even rurally.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

NAFTA has shifted Canadian attention to the America beyond Canada and the United States. It's inevitable that NAFTA and our gaze will expand further south as the rest of America grows wealthier and more intertwined. Culturally, Copa America and the Pan American Games will grow in importance in the long term and the use of Spanish in Canada will increase.

I expected this to happen with NAFTA but it's been quite a few years now and I haven't really noticed an uptick in Spanish usage or relevance in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Here and everywhere else, I suspect.

Anyone who likes hunting is unlikely to be a fan of the ultra-urban downtown lifestyle and vice versa.

Also, I have to strongly second everyone who said that the importance of the gun in hunting is one of the differences between the strong hunting culture here and the strong hunting culture south of the border. (Incidentally, my hunting weapon is the crossbow.)

Something else that people do in the US that almost no one does here is that they'll go in the woods to shoot things (inanimated, obviously...) for fun. Using the gun is the end goal of the activity, not catching a prey. It seems to be a big thing in northern NH, usually with younger guys, but maybe that's local, because now that I think of it, I haven't really seen as much of a "gun culture" in other New England states even rurally.

Good example. Don't know any one who does that here either.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lio45

Here and everywhere else, I suspect.

Anyone who likes hunting is unlikely to be a fan of the ultra-urban downtown lifestyle and vice versa.

Also, I have to strongly second everyone who said that the importance of the gun in hunting is one of the differences between the strong hunting culture here and the strong hunting culture south of the border. (Incidentally, my hunting weapon is the crossbow.)

No question that the farther away from the CBD you get, the more prevalent that culture becomes. But in the US, you still can't help but notice the hunting culture in cities in a way that doesn't really happen in Canada.

I agree that the gun angle is huge in the US. Go to a big American city other than the big coastal ones like NY, LA, SF and you will see billboards on the interstate advertising gun shows. I've stayed at hotels where big gun shows are going on in the banquet rooms. Buying guns and ammo is a much bigger deal down there than it is here.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Good example. Don't know any one who does that here either.

Hunting is an interesting example, because it totally highlights the fact that there are some divides (for example, on hunting, urban vs rural, or agricultural vs forested) that have a lot more importance than Canadian vs American.

In other words, if you're from rural Northern Ontario born and raised, it's unlikely that you'll feel more at home (overall feeling) transplanted to downtown Toronto than you would transplanted to the UP of MI.

Obviously some Ontario-specific and Canada-specific things will be common to the wilderness of Northwestern Ontario and to Toronto and those will contribute to making you feel more at home (like stepping into an Ontario DMV to fill up paperwork whose layout you already know, vs discovering weird, unexpected quirks about the way Michigan DMV functions) but other things will have the opposite effect.

As stated in this thread already though, I disagree that the sum of things that are horizontally common totally dwarfs the sum of the things that are common to lifestyle types (urban/rural, etc.) and to vertically-close environments (Cascadia, Great Plains ranching/farming, etc.)

It's a bit of both. IMO.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

And if it does refer strictly to the U.S., then wow, that's really something. I mean, obviously it's no surprise that Quebec doesn't pay much heed to the rest of Canada, but it's still somewhat jarring to see so many examples of that over and over again.

Why can't we all just get along?

It's not about getting along and it's not really related to any form of hostility.

Aspects of the Quebec identity that are shared with other Canadians (like the nanny-welfare state, etc.) are taken for granted as it assumed that with or without the ROC, Quebec would still have this stuff anyway as this is the way it naturally leans. If anything, Quebec might go even further than the current Canadian federal structure allows. At least, that's the thinking of some people.

Culturally speaking, there is a prevailing sentiment that Quebec doesn't need the ROC as an intermediary to interact with the global anglosphere culture. 98% of the Canadian stuff that is worth paying attention to is picked up by the Americans eventually, so why pay attention to eTalk Daily or the CBC in order to hear about Brad Pitt (or Jessye Norman for that matter)? The francophone media cover them to some degree and if that's not enough the American stuff is accessible too. There is also the whole acculturation angle that gets raised here now and then, which is to say: why should Québécois be interested in Anglo-Canadian culture when Anglo-Canadians themselves aren't that interested in it?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by esquire

I agree that the gun angle is huge in the US.

Yes, but as you say, it's really mostly in non-coastal areas ("Flyover Country", hope that's not offensive to someone from Winnipeg ) that this difference will be striking to a Canadian.

With the exception of the coastal areas of the Deep South states and maybe coastal midsouth too.


It would be interesting to make a thought experiment using rousseau, forced relocation for a complete year to a Stratford-sized town of NW VT (with Montreal as one's local metropolis, ~45 minutes away) followed by another complete year in a Stratford-sized town somewhere else in Canada, maybe ~45 min NW of Edmonton or something. I'm genuinely curious whether the "cultural shock" effect would be greater in the American town or in the Canadian town. (You're warned, there are no Tim Horton's in Vermont.)



Edit: I'm not even betting it would go one way or the other, I'd be curious to know. As stated before, for me, the level of exotism that Anglo North America offers is quite the same, namely, "mild/moderate", and the differences (the number of awnings on retail storefronts, etc.) don't really "strike" me when I cross from one to the other. Obviously, your mileage may vary.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yes, but as you say, it's really mostly in non-coastal areas ("Flyover Country", hope that's not offensive to someone from Winnipeg ) that this difference will be striking to a Canadian.

With the exception of the coastal areas of the Deep South states and maybe coastal midsouth too.

As someone who has flown over Quebec many times I take no offense at your comment

But really you are talking about a huge part of the US where the hunting/gun culture is very prominent. It's practically easier to identify the places where it isn't very common, which in my experience boils down to California as well as the NY/NJ area and general environs (CT, Philadelphia, Boston, Washington).

It would be interesting to make a thought experiment using rousseau, forced relocation for a complete year to a Stratford-sized town of NW VT (with Montreal as one's local metropolis, ~45 minutes away) followed by another complete year in a Stratford-sized town somewhere else in Canada, maybe ~45 min NW of Edmonton or something. I'm genuinely curious whether the "cultural shock" effect would be greater in the American town or in the Canadian town. (You're warned, there are no Tim Horton's in Vermont.)

I'd be surprised if it weren't. Small Alberta cities (say, like Lloydminster) have physical trappings and cultural attitudes that would be pretty familiar to people from Ontario. Much different in US cities, though. You multiply this factor by going south where tense race relations enter the mix. For instance, I have an elderly aunt who lives in a small economically-depressed city in North Carolina. The shit you see there is shocking and has no parallels that I've ever seen in Canadian cities... the closest I've seen is in central or northern Manitoba towns where there might be a slight bit of friction between the Aboriginal population and the white folks, but frankly nothing approaching what I've seen down there.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by esquire

I agree that the gun angle is huge in the US. Go to a big American city other than the big coastal ones like NY, LA, SF and you will see billboards on the interstate advertising gun shows. I've stayed at hotels where big gun shows are going on in the banquet rooms. Buying guns and ammo is a much bigger deal down there than it is here.

Even in areas that wouldn't necessarily be pro-gun, or have local gun bans in place the gun issue is much more visible. For instance, just about every storefront in Chicago has an "anti-handgun" symbol along the lines of "no-smoking" signs (also saw some homemade pro-guns signs on private residences). I gather it's municipal law for certain types of businesses, but reflective of the society. Guns are very much on the forefront of peoples minds, even if they don't own one. I can't think of anywhere in urban Canada where anyone puts much thoughts into guns, outside of hunters I suppose. Olivia Chow's proposed handgun ban when she was running for mayor of Toronto was widely panned because there wasn't much of a point to it.


www.myfoxchicago.com

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I expected this to happen with NAFTA but it's been quite a few years now and I haven't really noticed an uptick in Spanish usage or relevance in Canada.

I don't know whether it's (still) true or not, but I remember my Spanish teachers telling us that Spanish was the third most studied language in Canada, after English and French (this was long before NAFTA). In terms of relevance, I suppose more people are doing business in the hispanosphere than in the past, so the language would be useful in that regard, but other than that....

[esquire]

Originally Posted by niwell

Even in areas that wouldn't necessarily be pro-gun, or have local gun bans in place the gun issue is much more visible. For instance, just about every storefront in Chicago has an "anti-handgun" symbol along the lines of "no-smoking" signs (also saw some homemade pro-guns signs on private residences). I gather it's municipal law for certain types of businesses, but reflective of the society. Guns are very much on the forefront of peoples minds, even if they don't own one. I can't think of anywhere in urban Canada where anyone puts much thoughts into guns, outside of hunters I suppose. Olivia Chow's proposed handgun ban when she was running for mayor of Toronto was widely panned because there wasn't much of a point to it.

Good point. You are routinely confronted with this sort of thing in the US. Even a state like Minnesota, which doesn't feel much different than home to a Manitoban, has signs like that posted in places where a Canadian would simply not even consider guns.



Source: Wikipedia

The funny thing is you don't see signs like that in Texas. Not sure if the laws there don't allow for site-specific bans, or what. When I was there last month I had fun teasing my wife by reminding her that a substantial number of people around us were carrying guns under their jackets, in their purses, in their glove boxes, etc. It's a weird feeling for a Canadian to know you are around large numbers of people with handguns.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I expected this to happen with NAFTA but it's been quite a few years now and I haven't really noticed an uptick in Spanish usage or relevance in Canada.

I suspect it will be a very slow creep that occurs over many decades. Even in the US, the change is happening over generations not years. The Spanish speaking population in Canada is actually increasing faster than it is in the United States, but starting off a very small base.

These changes aren't noticeable to you and I, but gauging the prevalence of Spanish in 2000 and 2050 will show large differences. It's inevitable. Spanish is the dominant language on the American continent. English is 2nd, Portuguese 3rd, and French 4th if not lower.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by esquire

As someone who has flown over Quebec many times I take no offense at your comment

Haha, good point

But really you are talking about a huge part of the US where the hunting/gun culture is very prominent. It's practically easier to identify the places where it isn't very common, which in my experience boils down to California as well as the NY/NJ area and general environs (CT, Philadelphia, Boston, Washington).

I'd roughly say it's half/half (in population, not in land area, obviously)

All the solidly red states will certainly "feel more exotic" to a Canadian than anywhere in southern/populated Canada, that's for sure.

But again, on this hunting sub-topic, I am quite sure that culturally, on that one, the cultural gulf between rural-forested-Canada and urban Canada is larger than between urban Canada and urban coastal U.S.

i.e. the fact that the gun is more central to the hunting culture really pales in comparison to the difference between a strong hunting culture where it's not really about the gun, and no hunting culture at all.

I'd be surprised if it weren't. Small Alberta cities (say, like Lloydminster) have physical trappings and cultural attitudes that would be pretty familiar to people from Ontario.

Interesting. Like what, for example?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I don't know whether it's (still) true or not, but I remember my Spanish teachers telling us that Spanish was the third most studied language in Canada, after English and French (this was long before NAFTA). In terms of relevance, I suppose more people are doing business in the hispanosphere than in the past, so the language would be useful in that regard, but other than that....

Spanish has been popular in French-speaking Canada since I was a kid. It's grown steadily in popularity since then but I have not seen a significant upsurge in recent decades that could be attributed to NAFTA.

We've got a decent number of 50-60 year olds who can speak passable Spanish. The younger generations might have higher percentages but there is no real sea-change.

And I don't see a significant sea-change with respect to second language learning in Anglo-Canada, be it for French, Spanish or any other language.

It's pretty much the same old, same old. Though I suppose this will be disputed by some on here.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Good post.

What really interest me is what happens when canada becomes more multi-racial, and less multicultural.(as second gen kids tire of their grandparents nonsense)

One thing I noticed in toronto going to caribana festivals etc, was that alot of working classs asians-africans really are attracted to latin culture, because its less work to be multi racial.( there's this idea that cuba-brazil-columbia, represents this fresh slate that canada should be)

As much as some white fella can talk about embracing bollywood or sushi, the reality is a working class kid is far more interested going to a bar and not having their dating options limited by their grandparnets conservatism.

Canada will become a melting pot regardless of multi-cultural policies unless immigration from around the world is maintained at strong levels forever. That's obviously impossible. Over the long term (centuries) we'll become 'Canadian' which will be a stew of the world's people and cultures. We're already seeing that today as people write down 'Canadian' on the census form instead of ticking off 5 boxes.

The idea of multi-culturalism won't die though as the crux of it is inclusion, diversity, tolerance, equality, etc. We'll still adhere to these 'Canadian' ideals even if we become more homogenously Canadian over time.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by esquire

Good point. You are routinely confronted with this sort of thing in the US. Even a state like Minnesota, which doesn't feel much different than home to a Manitoban, has signs like that posted in places where a Canadian would simply not even consider guns.

Again, sure, having been born and raised in either of the two, when you cross from "North American Anglo culture with guns" to "North American Anglo culture without guns" or vice versa it's one of the things that will strike you, but in the grand scheme of things it's not that striking of a difference.

The fact that you guys seem to think that a little "no guns in this store" sticker on a door is actually a big cultural difference marker tells me that the two cultures being compared are in fact quite similar if that's the kind of thing you call a major cultural difference.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lio45

Interesting. Like what, for example?

It's tough to describe in general terms... the things that people associate with Canadians are there in Lloydminster as they are in Stratford. Canadian politeness, tolerance, thinking a bit more in terms of the collective whole as opposed to the more individualist outlook in the US, right down to details such as social programs and medicare.

There would be slight differences... it's likely that Lloydminster would skew a bit more conservative in general, but by and large the values in each are not that far apart. Mind you, it's not like a place such as North Platte, NE is worlds apart, but no question it will bear less resemblance to the two Canadian places.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Here is an example of it: http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/ca...uille-d-erable

This one actually refers to Canada. It's not always the case with these discussions.

The guy who came up with the equation: Q=(F)+(GB)+(USA)2 - R + C is Yvan Lamonde, who actually wrote a book on the topic saying that Québécois were way more American than they thought they were.

There are lots of articles by him or quoting him.

Another interesting guy is Joseph Yvon Thériault. He's on the other side of the argument. Originally from NE New Brunswick but his studies are very focused on Quebec. He used to live in my neighbourhood (he is now in Montreal) and I used to take the bus with him on occasion when he was a professor at the University of Ottawa.

Sounds like an interesting read, even if the basic thesis seems obvious (although on the surface that formula doesn't factor in Catholicism and French language, which seem pretty fundamental).

Edit: I guess that in fact the "F" of the formula pretty well encompasses Catholicism and language.