Canada's Panamerica Identity

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

I forget where I saw it, but there was something comparing the demographics between the two countries, and if you exclude Hispanics and African Americans, the makeup between the two countries is nearly identical. However it's a stretch to exclude those two groups, because they make up a bit more than a quarter of the population.

The point is ethnic minorities have just as much in common with similar minorites in the states than they do with white folk in say saskatoon.

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

Either way, there are other differences. The largest group for European Ancestry in the States is German, whereas in Canada, English, French, Scottish and Irish are all bigger components than German.

This is bordering on nonsense.

The mid west-prairies are heavily german-norwegian influenced.
The south and old school canada has a heavy scots-english influence.

With our cities having a strong polish-italian-russian influence.

If you were to use demographics you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

[Pinion]

Yeah, Pacific coast all the way down to San Diego feels more like home to me than Calgary/Edmonton/Toronto/Montreal etc. My dad is from California with German ancestry (in USA since the 1860s) so that might be part of it, but lots of multi-generational west coasters have American roots thanks to gold rushes and, more recently, the Vietnam war.

The only reason BC even started defending its border was because Americans were threatening to outnumber Canadians during the gold rush.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by lio45

I wouldn't claim to spend "any appreciable time in the two places", but I do like to leave the freeways to cast looks around.

To me, this, below (a little town that I happened to like when I passed through it), could easily pass off as Southern Ontario. Now let me quickly say that, no doubt, to the trained eye I trust you that "the differences in [...] architecture are striking" but if you haven't spent a ton of time comparing both, the differences won't be striking. Street is larger, maybe? But even things like the style of the traffic lights is completely similar (and different from Quebec's).

The main street of the southern Ontario town would only be two lanes. But even if it were four lanes, like Stratford, where I live, it would be a lot narrower. The shops in Southern Ontario wouldn't be so wide, and there wouldn't be any awnings.

Okay, I admit I'm sort of nitpicking a bit. And I admit that I know what the main streets of all of the cities in towns in southern Ontario look like, so I knew that your photo was American. But still, go off of the main drag to the residential neighbourhoods, and the differences really jump out at you.

Originally Posted by lio45

But you admit there are "differences in political attitudes and social norms" between, say, San Francisco, and rural Alabama? Yet it's the same country. Use the same range for your spectrum, and you'll see that the Canada-US gap isn't absolutely dwarfing others like the Coastal-Flyover gap, Old-New gap, Urban-Rural gap, North-Sunbelt gap.

Guns, violence, racial tension, socioeconomic disparities, loud people, aggressive people, a vague but palpable sense of menace at night: these are common denominators throughout the U.S. that override the differences between San Francisco and rural Alabama as compared to perceived similarities between southern Ontario and Michigan.

The differences are stark. I mean, do you know when hunting season is in Ontario? Does anyone? I don't have a clue. I've never met or seen a hunter in my life. But I'll never forget, one fall weekend, taking the I-75 through Michigan to the Upper Peninsula and seeing hundreds upon hundreds of pickups pulling some kind of "hunting trailer" behind them. Goin' huntin'. And those were just the trucks we passed. It was a pilgrimage.

Every gas station we went to or passed was selling hunting supplies, like corn and other things, stacked up beside the pumps. Every single one.

You do not see this is rural Ontario. Oh, I'm sure there must be deer hunters around here, maybe, and I've seen signs that say "no hunting," but I've never seen a truck with a rifle rack around here, and I've never heard talk of hunting. Ever.

Believe me, Stratford is a central kind of place where the farmboys come to drink and act stupid, so I'm surrounded by pickup trucks 24-7. You'd think I would have overhead someone talking about hunting in a line in the Timmies or at the supermarket, but no. Never.

That would be impossible to say in Michigan.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by Stryker

This is bordering on nonsense.

The mid west-prairies are heavily german-norwegian influenced.
The south and old school canada has a heavy scots-english influence.

With our cities having a strong polish-italian-russian influence.

If you were to use demographics you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

I'm not talking about regional differences, this was just looking at national demographic statistics. If you look at national statistics, German is the largest European ancestry in the States, whereas it is number 5 in Canada. That's not nonsense, and it does inevitably lead to some differences.
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2...&VNAMEE&VNAMEF

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

I'm not talking about regional differences, this was just looking at national demographic statistics. If you look at national statistics, German is the largest European ancestry in the States, whereas it is number 5 in Canada. That's not nonsense, and it does inevitably lead to some differences.
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2...&VNAMEE&VNAMEF

Go look at a map of where these people are actually found.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Go look at a map of where these people are actually found.

Again, I'm not talking about regional differences, I'm just talking about national differences between the States and Canada as far as European ancestry is concerned.
Even looking at maps there's a pretty significant difference.
Examples (from wikipedia):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_...ople_in_Canada


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra..._United_States

In Canada, the largest areas of German ancestry are confined to the prairies, whereas most of the northern half of the US is filled with German ancestry.
Also, most reporting "Canadian" in Canada are of French ancestry.

[Laceoflight]

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

What's interesting on this map, though, is how French Canadians and people from Atlantic Canada refer to themselves as "Canadians" while people in the Southern and Western Ontario and the West still tend to describe themselves as "English"...

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

As someone from BC who has been to Washington State many times. I fail to notice a difference between the people and culture.

I agree with this 100%. I'm more comfortable in Seattle than I am in Calgary.

Oh, come on, this is starting to get ridiculous. Just for starters, the people in Calgary have the same accent as you do, but as soon as you cross the border into Washington they sound very different.

If you were in a third country working with American and Canadian expats you'd feel more of a socio-cultural affinity with the Canadians from Calgary before you would with the Americans from Seattle. Not talking about choosing friends here, just shared culture and various others kinds of expectations shaped by social commonalities.

I think you're talking more about geography here, i.e. about being next to the mountains and the ocean in Vancouver, by contrast with Calgary, where that isn't true. But in terms of people? Like it or not, and you seem clearly not to, we really do have certain fundamental things in common that define us. The only real outlier is Quebec. I'm not even so sure about Newfoundland, all endless protestations on this forum to the contrary. I've met tons of Newfoundlanders here and abroad, seen them around Irish and British expats, and I've always experienced an unspoken acknowledgement of the socio-cultural affinity we share as citizens of the same country.

Consider this: is there another internet forum out there populated mainly by Americans living directly to the south of you where you can comfortably talk about Canadian issues and concerns the way you can here? Is Signalhillhiker talking about the issues he raises here on an Irish online forum?

I wouldn't even know where to begin looking for online discussion forums full of Western New Yorkers or Detroiters, but the very idea seems preposterous to me anyway. Where, for example, on the internet or in the real world, do you see forums or places for people in Eastern Michigan and southern Ontario southwest of London to meet and chat about their shared concerns?

Do they even exist? Why would they? Someone in Flint is going to have kids playing football against Saginaw, and there's a very real likelihood that said someone barely even knows London Ontario exists, much less would they ever decide one day that they would like to go to London Ontario. Because they'd have no reason to.

I'm blathering on at length here in this thread, I know. Apologies for this.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Okay, I admit I'm sort of nitpicking a bit. And I admit that I know what the main streets of all of the cities in towns in southern Ontario look like, so I knew that your photo was American.

There wouldn't be a couple of buildings with awnings, really? And most cars in the streets would have Ontario license plates instead of Michigan ones...

The differences are stark. I mean, do you know when hunting season is in Ontario? Does anyone? I don't have a clue. I've never met or seen a hunter in my life. But I'll never forget, one fall weekend, taking the I-75 through Michigan to the Upper Peninsula and seeing hundreds upon hundreds of pickups pulling some kind of "hunting trailer" behind them. Goin' huntin'. And those were just the trucks we passed. It was a pilgrimage.

Every gas station we went to or passed was selling hunting supplies, like corn and other things, stacked up beside the pumps. Every single one.

You do not see this is rural Ontario. Oh, I'm sure there must be deer hunters around here, maybe, and I've seen signs that say "no hunting," but I've never seen a truck with a rifle rack around here, and I've never heard talk of hunting. Ever.

Interesting. I suppose rural Quebec has a lot more in common with Michigan than with Ontario, then. People here hunt. Friends, relatives, uncles, my grandpa (still an eagle eye at 89 years old)... Even I shot a deer last fall (and will likely do so again, but I still have meat left in the freezer) when I went with my father in law. Before that my deer meat and moose meat supply came from grandpa...

I've never set foot in Northern Ontario but I would tend to bet that people over there hunt too. They probably hunt a heck of a lot more than San Franciscans do... and gas stations in Northern Ontario are probably more likely to sell various hunting supplies than in SF.

Culturally, hunting is probably strongly linked to the presence (or not) of forests and game nearby. I wouldn't consider it a good example.

In fact, hunting would be a counter-example to your point that people on one side of the border tend to all do a given thing that people on the other side don't; Quebec and Michigan are in one group on this one, while apparently Southern Ontario is in the opposed group...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

And I admit that I know what the main streets of all of the cities in towns in southern Ontario look like, so I knew that your photo was American.

I just noticed the flag over the first floor of the leftmost building... You forgot to add that to your list of giveaways

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Oh, come on, this is starting to get ridiculous. Just for starters, the people in Calgary have the same accent as you do, but as soon as you cross the border into Washington they sound very different.

If you were in a third country working with American and Canadian expats you'd feel more of a socio-cultural affinity with the Canadians from Calgary before you would with the Americans from Seattle. Not talking about choosing friends here, just shared culture and various others kinds of expectations shaped by social commonalities.

I think you're talking more about geography here, i.e. about being next to the mountains and the ocean in Vancouver, by contrast with Calgary, where that isn't true. But in terms of people? Like it or not, and you seem clearly not to, we really do have certain fundamental things in common that define us. The only real outlier is Quebec. I'm not even so sure about Newfoundland, all endless protestations on this forum to the contrary. I've met tons of Newfoundlanders here and abroad, seen them around Irish and British expats, and I've always experienced an unspoken acknowledgement of the socio-cultural affinity we share as citizens of the same country.

Consider this: is there another internet forum out there populated mainly by Americans living directly to the south of you where you can comfortably talk about Canadian issues and concerns the way you can here? Is Signalhillhiker talking about the issues he raises here on an Irish online forum?

I wouldn't even know where to begin looking for online discussion forums full of Western New Yorkers or Detroiters, but the very idea seems preposterous to me anyway. Where, for example, on the internet or in the real world, do you see forums or places for people in Eastern Michigan and southern Ontario southwest of London to meet and chat about their shared concerns?

Do they even exist? Why would they? Someone in Flint is going to have kids playing football against Saginaw, and there's a very real likelihood that said someone barely even knows London Ontario exists, much less would they ever decide one day that they would like to go to London Ontario. Because they'd have no reason to.

I'm blathering on at length here in this thread, I know. Apologies for this.

I see where you are coming from with this. Someone from Vancouver travelling in Europe would probably have more in common with a traveller they met from Calgary than one from Seattle.
Culturally Vancouverites absolutely have more in common with Calgarians. However, politically, I think we arguably have more in common with people in Western Washington.

And no, the accents in the Pacific Northwest of the US are actually not all that different from, Vancouver or even Calgary. There are some give aways, but someone from Vancouver is likely to sound more like someone from just south of the border than someone from Toronto for instance. It's even more noticeable with younger people in Metro Vancouver. Most of the people in my age group cringe at Eastern Canadians saying "eh" frequently just as much as the Americans I know do.
I find people of the Pacific Northwest in the States as well as Canada speak with what I would define to be a neutral accent, whereas when I listen to people in Ontario speak, it's definitely more of what I would define as the traditional Canadian accent.

If I went up to someone on the streets of Seattle, they'd probably know what Skookum means, whereas if I did that in Toronto, they'd think I was nuts.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Oh, come on, this is starting to get ridiculous. Just for starters, the people in Calgary have the same accent as you do, but as soon as you cross the border into Washington they sound very different.

I actually did that test for myself (remembering the debates we had on this forum) earlier this summer when I was about to cross MI and ON. Around Detroit I'd scan radio channels and pick random ones, and stay on them until I had a giveaway ("You're listening to 99.3, Chatham-Kent's Greatest Hits" or ads ending with a store address in Dearborn, MI) with the object of the experiment to see whether or not I'd have a good track record in guessing the side of the border the channel was from based on the accent of the people speaking.

I know I can tell a U.S. Deep South accent and a British accent from what to my ears is a "normal Anglo North American" accent, but my track record on this experiment was quite poor.

I can tell that someone is from Saguenay, though. The accent is "very different" from southern Quebec. Can you tell too?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by lio45

TIn fact, hunting would be a counter-example to your point that people on one side of the border tend to all do a given thing that people on the other side don't; Quebec and Michigan are in one group on this one, while apparently Southern Ontario is in the opposed group...

I'm sure there's lots of hunting in northern Ontario, just like in rural Quebec, but the point is that hunting is widespread throughout the U.S.

As per my anecdote, tens of thousands of people from southern Michigan go north in the state for hunting. To the point where the I-75 is literally filled with pickup trucks with gun racks and those little trailers (still don't know exactly what they were) come hunting season.

Do you see this in Ontario? No. Are you saying that when hunting season starts in Quebec you see thousands and thousands of pickup trucks driven by hunters jamming the highways going north? Really?

I'm not talking one or two, or an anecdote about your grandfather, I'm talking about something that is unmistakably a major part of the culture that is impossible to avoid. If this is really what it's like in Quebec, then wow, I had no idea. But somehow I suspect we're talking about vastly different degrees of scale.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

And no, the accents in the Pacific Northwest of the US are actually not all that different from, Vancouver or even Calgary. There are some give aways, but someone from Vancouver is likely to sound more like someone from just south of the border than someone from Toronto for instance.

This is not true, though. We've been through this on this forum before. Go to baitcar.com for the standard working class BC accent. BCers are closer to baitcar.com than they are to Seattle. Vancouver and Calgary sound more like Toronto, save for the flatter Os and As (which in Toronto they are a bit more Americanized).

Sorry, but you're in denial if you think you sound more like Tom Hanks in Sleepless in Seattle than baitcar.com.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I'm sure there's lots of hunting in northern Ontario, just like in rural Quebec, but the point is that hunting is widespread throughout the U.S.

As per my anecdote, tens of thousands of people from southern Michigan go north in the state for hunting. To the point where the I-75 is literally filled with pickup trucks with gun racks and those little trailers (still don't know exactly what they were) come hunting season.

Do you see this in Ontario? No. Are you saying that when hunting season starts in Quebec you see thousands and thousands of pickup trucks driven by hunters jamming the highways going north? Really?

I'm not talking one or two, or an anecdote about your grandfather, I'm talking about something that is unmistakably a major part of the culture that is impossible to avoid. If this is really what it's like in Quebec, then wow, I had no idea. But somehow I suspect we're talking about vastly different degrees of scale.

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Hunting can certainly be found in rural parts of Canada, but in the States it's quite common, even in the suburbs. Lots of people in say suburban Seattle, Atlanta, and Minneapolis own rifles, and drive out to the sticks on weekend hunting trips.

In Canada you really don't see many people living in the suburbs of Vancouver, Toronto, or Montreal rushing out of the city on the weekend to go hunting, whereas it's common in relatively large American cities, and the number of outdoor stores like Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops reflects that.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Oh, come on, this is starting to get ridiculous. Just for starters, the people in Calgary have the same accent as you do, but as soon as you cross the border into Washington they sound very different.

If you were in a third country working with American and Canadian expats you'd feel more of a socio-cultural affinity with the Canadians from Calgary before you would with the Americans from Seattle. Not talking about choosing friends here, just shared culture and various others kinds of expectations shaped by social commonalities.

I think you're talking more about geography here, i.e. about being next to the mountains and the ocean in Vancouver, by contrast with Calgary, where that isn't true. But in terms of people? Like it or not, and you seem clearly not to, we really do have certain fundamental things in common that define us. The only real outlier is Quebec. I'm not even so sure about Newfoundland, all endless protestations on this forum to the contrary. I've met tons of Newfoundlanders here and abroad, seen them around Irish and British expats, and I've always experienced an unspoken acknowledgement of the socio-cultural affinity we share as citizens of the same country.

Consider this: is there another internet forum out there populated mainly by Americans living directly to the south of you where you can comfortably talk about Canadian issues and concerns the way you can here? Is Signalhillhiker talking about the issues he raises here on an Irish online forum?

I wouldn't even know where to begin looking for online discussion forums full of Western New Yorkers or Detroiters, but the very idea seems preposterous to me anyway. Where, for example, on the internet or in the real world, do you see forums or places for people in Eastern Michigan and southern Ontario southwest of London to meet and chat about their shared concerns?

Do they even exist? Why would they? Someone in Flint is going to have kids playing football against Saginaw, and there's a very real likelihood that said someone barely even knows London Ontario exists, much less would they ever decide one day that they would like to go to London Ontario. Because they'd have no reason to.

I'm blathering on at length here in this thread, I know. Apologies for this.

What? Actually I noticed an accent difference in Calgary, not Seattle.

No one even knew I was Canadian in Seattle until I actually mentioned it or tried to give it away.

Someone would ask, "what part of town are you from, or " where are you from"

I'd say Vancouver and they'd say something akin to "ah near portland?"

That surprised me. But regardless sorry to state this but culturally and politically BC and Washington are EXTREMELY similar. I didn't find Calgary familiar culturally or politically at all yet I could walk around Seattle and feel at home very easily.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by lio45

I can tell that someone is from Saguenay, though. The accent is "very different" from southern Quebec. Can you tell too?

No, but I'd love to see some Youtube videos showing the difference. I can tell a French person from a Quebecker right away, but I don't know much about the regional variations.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by lio45

Even for "connectivity", too. There might be more lifestyle and interests overlap between for example a NS fisherman and a ME fisherman; a Tonawanda worker/an Oshawa worker/a Hamtramck worker; a cattle rancher in S. AB and one in Montana; a logger in BC and a logger in WA; etc.

What you call "physical components" aren't merely physical only; employment, lifestyle choices derive from the "physical components" in a significant way.

The reason why for example a Canadian from Northern Ontario and an American from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan likely have a lot more in common for lifestyle (activities/interests/hobbies) than an American from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and an American from Southern Florida is precisely that and that only, the physical and climactic characteristics of where they live.

Yes. No doubt the life of a fisherman in a small village in Maine is more similar in many ways to the life of a fisherman is a small town in Hokkaido than the life of an accountant in central Boston.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Consider this: is there another internet forum out there populated mainly by Americans living directly to the south of you where you can comfortably talk about Canadian issues and concerns the way you can here? Is Signalhillhiker talking about the issues he raises here on an Irish online forum?

I wouldn't even know where to begin looking for online discussion forums full of Western New Yorkers or Detroiters, but the very idea seems preposterous to me anyway. Where, for example, on the internet or in the real world, do you see forums or places for people in Eastern Michigan and southern Ontario southwest of London to meet and chat about their shared concerns?

Do they even exist? Why would they? Someone in Flint is going to have kids playing football against Saginaw, and there's a very real likelihood that said someone barely even knows London Ontario exists, much less would they ever decide one day that they would like to go to London Ontario. Because they'd have no reason to.

Yes. I dislike talking about Canada here because Vancouverites for whatever reason are mostly ignored and I have very little in common with easterners. I go to another American site where Vancouverites are much more plentiful to talk about our issues, and even the American posters seem more similar in values.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Calgarians had a weird pseudo american drawl when I visited. It was like a mix of a stereotypical Canadian accent and the deep south. It was weird.