Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[bob rulz]

People are way too fixated on the .05 law. Does 1 beer or 1 drink really get you to .05? Based on the research I've seen, you generally would have to have 2 drinks to get to .05, and if you wait an hour before you drive, you are unlikely to be over .05 any more. If you have a draft beer in Utah, it may even take more than 2. Of course these all depend on body weight, base alcohol tolerance, how much you've eaten, etc, but it all just feels overblown to me.

Utah's alcohol laws are pure stupidity, we can all agree on that, but there is a LOT of unproven hyperbole about this. I find it unconvincing that we are suddenly going to see a wave of people getting pulled over for DUIs after having a single drink.

I guess I also have little sympathy for people who drive after drinking anyway. If you are worried about actually driving while slightly impaired, then you are probably drinking too much anyway.

Originally Posted by Comrade

Agreed. The DUI laws are way too extreme and need to be tiered like speeding laws. Speeding causes more traffic deaths in America than drunk driving and yet, often, a speeding ticket is essentially a slap on the wrist. If you're blowing .05-.08, it should be treated similarly to going ten or so over the limit.

Could you imagine treating speeders with the same approach? You're arrested, car impounded, license revoked and forced to pay thousands of dollars in lawyer fees because you happened to be going 10 over the legal speed limit?

I can agree that they need to be tiered, but they're not an apples to apples comparison. Everybody speeds sometimes. Not everybody drinks and drives, so of course there's more deaths caused by speeding.

EDIT: Actually, digging a little bit more, it seems that speeding and drunk driving deaths are pretty comparable.

In 2015, 10,265 people died in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (29%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States. The speeding number for 2015 was 9,723.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by jetlag

In most of urban Europe yes, but Australia and rural Europe not as much (nor much of Canada i'd imagine). The times I've been someone was always a DD since public transportation was not always an option, the same way it isn't really an option here, where everyone lives in the suburbs. I'm not sure if it's changed much since the age of Uber/Lyft but as a broke kid, I still managed to have a ton of fun and drink plenty with other broke kids and never once did anyone drive after drinking. It's just in their culture to not do it. Americans have a hard time letting go of it. All of my buddies here are pissed about this law but it really doesn't seem to bother me. Probably because i've seen it work in other places.

In the U.S., only 1.3% live in an urban core and 13.5% in the inner ring. In Australia, 12.4% live in an urban core and 10% in what they call the “transit suburbs.” In Canada, 11.8% live in an urban core and 12.2% in transit suburbs.

So, 14.8% of U.S. live in transit areas.
22.4% in Australia and 24% of Canadians.

While they’re all largely suburban/exurban countries, they have considerably more people living within dense urban and inner suburban areas than the U.S.

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Yeah, they trip out because they live closer in to the center of town and they take a train or bus to go home.

So then we need better transit and urban design, not looser alcohol limits? Sounds like a different issue. Or are you saying people should be able to drink and drive as they please because they live in the suburbs and it would be too inconvenient not to?

[TonyAnderson]

Sugarhouse rising.


@ascentconstruction

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

People are way too fixated on the .05 law. Does 1 beer or 1 drink really get you to .05? Based on the research I've seen, you generally would have to have 2 drinks to get to .05, and if you wait an hour before you drive, you are unlikely to be over .05 any more. If you have a draft beer in Utah, it may even take more than 2. Of course these all depend on body weight, base alcohol tolerance, how much you've eaten, etc, but it all just feels overblown to me.

Utah's alcohol laws are pure stupidity, we can all agree on that, but there is a LOT of unproven hyperbole about this. I find it unconvincing that we are suddenly going to see a wave of people getting pulled over for DUIs after having a single drink.

I guess I also have little sympathy for people who drive after drinking anyway. If you are worried about actually driving while slightly impaired, then you are probably drinking too much anyway.



I can agree that they need to be tiered, but they're not an apples to apples comparison. Everybody speeds sometimes. Not everybody drinks and drives, so of course there's more deaths caused by speeding.

EDIT: Actually, digging a little bit more, it seems that speeding and drunk driving deaths are pretty comparable.

In 2015, 10,265 people died in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (29%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States. The speeding number for 2015 was 9,723.

As of 2013 the incarceration rate in Utah was 620 / 100000. That number is just 106 in Canada, 148 in England, and 151 in Australia(English speaking 1st world countries/shared legal heritage). I cannot support laws that may put even more people behind bars.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by TonyAnderson

Sugarhouse rising.


@ascentconstruction

That's a great photo. The urbanization of Sugarhouse is great!

[jetlag]

Originally Posted by Stenar

In the U.S., only 1.3% live in an urban core and 13.5% in the inner ring. In Australia, 12.4% live in an urban core and 10% in what they call the “transit suburbs.” In Canada, 11.8% live in an urban core and 12.2% in transit suburbs.

So, 14.8% of U.S. live in transit areas.
22.4% in Australia and 24% of Canadians.

While they’re all largely suburban/exurban countries, they have considerably more people living within dense urban and inner suburban areas than the U.S.

Thank you for the stats. There's absolutely no denying they are generally more urban than us, but i've spent considerable time in suburban parts of Australia, Sweden and Germany where people live not too differently than us. They don't seem to have a problem with the BAC driving laws either nor does it inhibit their fun. The vibe I got was that driving after drinking just simply isn't an option there whereas the vibe I get in the US is "Did I drink too much to get behind the wheel? Am I over or under the limit?".

I think the point here is if people there wanted to regularly be drinking and worrying about how to get home they'd go live in the city, not the suburbs.

We can hope that mass transit comes to our front doorsteps in Sandy, Cottonwood Heights, West Jordan and dozens of other suburbs so that we can go drink and come back home without driving or spending money on a taxi, or we can ask ourselves if going to bars is a regular enough activity, why are we living in those parts of town?

That's my take on the whole situation and why it doesn't bother me personally. I've never been one to question am I over or under the limit. If I drink at all, I just don't drive. Now that's not to say there aren't way more important areas to focus legislature on than this. I'd gladly trade this new law for one targeting air quality or improving sober drivers .

[jetlag]

Originally Posted by wrendog

That's a great photo. The urbanization of Sugarhouse is great!

Awesome indeed. When I first moved here everyone raved about Sugar House and how it was hip, cool and more like the trendy neighborhoods of other cities. I was totally put off when I exited 1300 and saw a giant strip mall, Red Lobster, Olive Garden, Sizzler, and didn't understand the hype. Seeing all these cranes is really exciting and I can't wait to see the next 10 years unfold there.

[Comrade]

I don't think the issue is having DUI laws or enforcing DUI laws. It's the severity of a DUI law for something that is statistically not an issue. In 2014, there were 41 DUI related fatalities in Utah. Of those 41, only 10% had a BAC level between .01-.08. That's still one too many, I agree, but let's be real: most fatalities are due to people who exceed the current legal limit by a lot.

If you're going to lower the BAC to .05, you've got to lower the penalties associated with it. That's just common sense. Someone's life shouldn't be completely ruined because they had two drinks and got behind the wheel, where statistically they're as risky on the road as someone who speeds. Due to the stigma, and severity of the laws, that's exactly what happens, though.

I know! But getting behind the wheel even after one drink can ruin someone's else's life. Yeah. And so can speeding or glancing down at the radio or having a screaming baby in the car or talking to the person sitting next to you. But we also don't treat every goddamn traffic violation as a potential felony. We have limits because we understand statistics and how big of a threat something is.

Someone driving with a BAC of .05 is likely no more a threat on the road than someone driving 10 miles over the speed limit. Okay. So, let's reexamine the laws and have a punishment that fits the crime. Why should someone blowing a .05 be treated at near the same level as someone who's two or three times over the current legal limit?

BAC laws aren't bad, IMO. It's the punishment I question on a lot of these.

But regardless. It's not worth the risk. So, even if you have a Utah beer, still don't get behind the wheel.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by jetlag

Awesome indeed. When I first moved here everyone raved about Sugar House and how it was hip, cool and more like the trendy neighborhoods of other cities. I was totally put off when I exited 1300 and saw a giant strip mall, Red Lobster, Olive Garden, Sizzler, and didn't understand the hype. Seeing all these cranes is really exciting and I can't wait to see the next 10 years unfold there.

To be fair they tore down the most interesting section of it in 2007 and then left a gaping hole in the ground for about 5 years.

[DMTower]

Originally Posted by jetlag

Thank you for the stats. There's absolutely no denying they are generally more urban than us, but i've spent considerable time in suburban parts of Australia, Sweden and Germany where people live not too differently than us. They don't seem to have a problem with the BAC driving laws either nor does it inhibit their fun. The vibe I got was that driving after drinking just simply isn't an option there whereas the vibe I get in the US is "Did I drink too much to get behind the wheel? Am I over or under the limit?".

I think the point here is if people there wanted to regularly be drinking and worrying about how to get home they'd go live in the city, not the suburbs.

We can hope that mass transit comes to our front doorsteps in Sandy, Cottonwood Heights, West Jordan and dozens of other suburbs so that we can go drink and come back home without driving or spending money on a taxi, or we can ask ourselves if going to bars is a regular enough activity, why are we living in those parts of town?

That's my take on the whole situation and why it doesn't bother me personally. I've never been one to question am I over or under the limit. If I drink at all, I just don't drive. Now that's not to say there aren't way more important areas to focus legislature on than this. I'd gladly trade this new law for one targeting air quality or improving sober drivers .

The difference between rural Europe and suburban U.S.A. is that there are many pubs within walking distance in rural Europe, so driving isn't really an issue. It's a whole different paradigm, and you really can't compare Utah's mentality of finding any way you can to punish people for drinking to Europe's sensible restrictions mentality.

[jetlag]

Originally Posted by Comrade

In 2014, there were 41 DUI related fatalities in Utah. Of those 41, only 10% had a BAC level between .01-.08. That's still one too many, I agree, but let's be real: most fatalities are due to people who exceed the current legal limit by a lot.

And I wonder how many deaths were attributed to just plain bad driving. I cant leave my house without someone tailgating me while talking on their phone, someone cutting me off, someone not letting me merge or switch lanes, or people stopping halfway into an intersection. I agree that any death due to alcohol is too many but frankly i'm more terrified by your average sober SLC driver. You wonder which is the bigger problem, alcohol or bad driving.

Originally Posted by DMTower

The difference between rural Europe and suburban U.S.A. is that there are many pubs within walking distance in rural Europe, so driving isn't really an issue. It's a whole different paradigm, and you really can't compare Utah's mentality of finding any way you can to punish people for drinking to Europe's sensible restrictions mentality.

Yes, with the little I know about Utah laws and politics, something tells me this was not enacted to be more sensible or more like Europe, hence there are 100 other more important policy changes i'd rather see than lowering the BAC limit, even if i'm not opposed to it.

[bob rulz]

I think that is a reasonable concern. I am 100% in agreement with tiered penalties but I'm not sure that's going anywhere. And the fact that Utah is moving forward with this law but refused to ban people talking on their cell phone while driving is hypocritical and shows where their priorities really lie.

Still, I'm not opposed to the idea of the law, but you're right Comrade, the enforcement of the law is a concern. I'm just not sure it's going to be as bad as people say. But I get it, and maybe I'm wrong.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by jetlag

Thank you for the stats. There's absolutely no denying they are generally more urban than us, but i've spent considerable time in suburban parts of Australia, Sweden and Germany where people live not too differently than us. They don't seem to have a problem with the BAC driving laws either nor does it inhibit their fun. The vibe I got was that driving after drinking just simply isn't an option there whereas the vibe I get in the US is "Did I drink too much to get behind the wheel? Am I over or under the limit?".

...

I've spent a considerable amount of time in the suburbs of Stockholm and Oslo (I'm part Swedish and part Norwegian). In Norway, we usually rode a bus or subway into town. In Sweden, we rode a train. We almost never drove when going out.

In Norway, you can go almost everywhere in the country via bus. We would ride buses to go up to stay at cabins in the mountains.

[Marvland]

The entire .05 statistical argument is complete and utter bullshit: Guy gets in car while eating hamburger and, while applying ketchup to said hamburger, he broadsides a guy who had a beer. THAT IS RECORDED AS AN ALCOHOLIC RELATED CRASH. The F&B industry got kicked in the balls by the OR debacle, followed closely by and one-two punch of .05 landing out of nowhere. I was in the bloody room when Brad Wilson promised the industry that Thurston's .05 legislation would "Not make it out of committee". I have the pleasure of reading food and beverage P&L's as a course of normal business, I see every restaurant that is struggling come across my desk and the above actions by the state HAMMERED the local food and beverage industry this year. Worst on record, bar none.

.05 was a social message delivered as a last dying gasp of a bunch of old muppets who can feel their grasp on Salt Lake City evaporating at the speed of light (but still not fast enough). This was a message, delivered loud and clear. And the message was not about safety, or how reasonable Europe's DUI laws are. I drink like a fish and don't drive. I have no sympathy for those who drink and drive. I think conversations about reasonable DUI regs deserve to be had, but that conversation was not had.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by jetlag

Awesome indeed. When I first moved here everyone raved about Sugar House and how it was hip, cool and more like the trendy neighborhoods of other cities. I was totally put off when I exited 1300 and saw a giant strip mall, Red Lobster, Olive Garden, Sizzler, and didn't understand the hype. Seeing all these cranes is really exciting and I can't wait to see the next 10 years unfold there.

Sugar House used to be cool, except for the Shopko/strip mall. It's not as cool as it used to be. :/

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by DMTower

The difference between rural Europe and suburban U.S.A. is that there are many pubs within walking distance in rural Europe, so driving isn't really an issue. It's a whole different paradigm, and you really can't compare Utah's mentality of finding any way you can to punish people for drinking to Europe's sensible restrictions mentality.

Very true. In Hønefoss, Norway, we would go dancing at a little disco within walking distance in our town. We didn't have to go all the way to Oslo. Although, we did go to Oslo as well.

[Utah_Dave]

The state should issue more liquor licenses so the public doesn't have to travel as far to get to a bar or brewery. I'm sure there are far more places to have a drink per capita in those countries then here in Utah. If we want to hold up European nations as an example of how low blood alcohol level laws can work we should take into account accessibility to liquor establishments. There are vast areas were the public has no choice but to drive long distances to find an establishment. I'm sure part of this is the difficulty in getting a liquor license but others here would have a better understanding of that.

[jetlag]

Originally Posted by Utah_Dave

The state should issue more liquor licenses so the public doesn't have to travel as far to get to a bar or brewery. I'm sure there are far more places to have a drink per capita in those countries then here in Utah. If we want to hold up European nations as an example of how low blood alcohol level laws can work we should take into account accessibility to liquor establishments. There are vast areas were the public has no choice but to drive long distances to find an establishment. I'm sure part of this is the difficulty in getting a liquor license but others here would have a better understanding of that.

100% agree. It sounds like they passed this law to add yet one more obstacle to drinking rather than to actually make the roads safer and follow other more progressive nations, hence why nothing else was enacted along with it (like looser permitting for establishments or increased public transportation).

Thats why i'm not against the .05 BAC limit itself, but I am 100% against the motives that drove this and think there are far more severe problems in Utah in need of new laws than drunk drivers.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Sugar House used to be cool, except for the Shopko/strip mall. It's not as cool as it used to be. :/

It lost its eclectic heart. I really wish a developer would recognize that and pounce on the opportunity to make their property the new heart of Sugarhouse.