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  #1081  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 6:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
i think theres tipping points to these things...chicago didnt “pride” itself above the others.
yeah, i think the whole "pride" angle is a silly way of looking at things.

chicago's size, combined with its rail transit infrastructure and more diversified economy, helped it weather the rust belt storm a little bit better than most of its peers.
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  #1082  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 6:54 PM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
Bungalow belt? huh? then what do you call these? https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9370...7i13312!8i6656

Most of everything away from the waterfront is detached and most of them look like single family, Chicago doesn't have miles of wall to wall rowhomes you see in the northeast. And he wasn't comparing Detroit today, old aerial photos show Detroit with miles of the exact same neighborhoods.
2 flats, 3 flats. Those are Chicago-ese for "duplex, triplex". Chicago is dominated by small multiunit buildings.
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  #1083  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
yeah, i think the whole "pride" angle is a silly way of looking at things.

chicago's size, combined with its rail transit infrastructure and more diversified economy, helped it weather the rust belt storm a little bit better than most of its peers.
the economy of st. louis was really not that much different really than chicago. it was home to what, around 30 fortune 500 companies just after mid century and a much more educated workforce than places like dallas, etc. at the time with something like 2X the proportion of college educated adults. it's really a tale of two cities, even though the scale was different.
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  #1084  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 6:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
1900 popualtion is probably a decent enough proxy for pre-car development.
But I don't think 1900 is a good proxy for urbanity. Cars didn't dominate the scene until after WW2. The greatest binge of urban development in North America occurred in the half century preceding WW2.

In 1900, the Bronx, now the second most urban place in North America, consisted of farms and woods, for the most part. There's very little intact pre-1900 urbanity in North America.
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  #1085  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 1:57 PM
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But I don't think 1900 is a good proxy for urbanity. Cars didn't dominate the scene until after WW2. The greatest binge of urban development in North America occurred in the half century preceding WW2.

In 1900, the Bronx, now the second most urban place in North America, consisted of farms and woods, for the most part. There's very little intact pre-1900 urbanity in North America.
I dunno. I tend to divide urban development into three semi-distinct eras.

Prior to 1890 - The "old urban" or finely-graded urban era.

Urban neighborhoods were pretty much exclusively built to interact with on foot. Thus most neighborhoods had a mixture of residential, commercial, and industrial. Neighborhoods tended to have class diversity as well, as the business owners in the poor neighborhoods, and the "help" in rich neighborhoods needed to be able to walk to their jobs. Larger cities during this age were, to a great degree, a whole lot of smaller cities smashed together, although proto-commuting (omnibus, cable car, ferry, horsecar, railroad commute, etc) did start to be used later in the period - particularly by the wealthy.

As an aside, surviving Old Urban neighborhoods are my favorite to walk through today, because they are such a chaotic jumble of smaller-scale buildings of different eras you never know what you'll find when you turn around the next corner. You could find a random restaurant in the middle of a residential block, or an old mini-mill which has been converted into live-work space.

1890 to 1919 - The (electric) streetcar era.

This era opened up vast new tracks of land which could be developed cheaply and quickly away from the urban core. Separation of uses began, because the new streetcar suburbs contained no employment anchors, and often only a smattering of shops. Blocks became longer, with the new neighborhood (in lower-density cities) dominated by block after block of closely spaced mass-produced single-family detached housing. The new neighborhoods themselves were often not particularly walkable, with the expectation that one would take the streetcar to their place of work or the nearest retail center.

At the same time, the development of the new residential nodes and the establishment of the streetcar system allowed the remaining "old urban" neighborhoods to specialize in many cases on non-residential uses, allowing for higher employment densities. Formerly mixed-use areas tended to become centers of office employment (the CBD), retail, or manufacturing. These new densities required much of the more small-scale, old-urban city to be demolished as the first office towers and factories spanning multiple blocks with thousands of workers took form. This era also saw the rise of dedicated apartment buildings for the first time in the U.S. - which were previously mostly limited to NYC, Boston, and Cincinnati, partially supplanting older forms of high-density living (rooming houses, boarding, hot bunks, long-term hotel residence, etc).

1920-1949 - The proto-suburban era.

For the most part this era is really just the 1920s, because very little got built during the latter period between the Great Depression and World War 2. Regardless, new neighborhoods in most cities built during this period are effectively suburban, because even though car ownership levels were relatively low, they were high among those with access to enough capital to buy homes. Neighborhoods of this vintage are dominated by single-family homes with driveways and garages (albeit detached garages). The exceptions were in dense cities like NYC and Philly, where the transit system was robust and car ownership levels stayed relatively low, but even the neighborhoods built during this era in the higher-density cities feel a bit more spread out than the streetcar suburbs which preceded them.
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  #1086  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 2:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
But I don't think 1900 is a good proxy for urbanity. Cars didn't dominate the scene until after WW2. The greatest binge of urban development in North America occurred in the half century preceding WW2.

In 1900, the Bronx, now the second most urban place in North America, consisted of farms and woods, for the most part. There's very little intact pre-1900 urbanity in North America.
I agree, I think a better proxy is America in about 1930

Much of the Bronx explosion (and growth in other cities) occurred after transit extensions were made in the early 1900s, with rapid development following.
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  #1087  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 2:56 PM
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But I don't think 1900 is a good proxy for urbanity.
i didn't say 1900 was a good proxy for urbanity.

i said it was a good proxy for pre-car development.

in 1900 virtually nobody in america owned a car. after 1900, people started owning cars. sure, it was only the wealthy at first in very small numbers, but the movement gradually picked up steam from there until its zenith in 1960 when virtually every middle class family in america owned a car.

it's not like someone flipped on a light switch in 1960 and america went from 0 cars to 100 million cars in an instant. it was a gradual process that played out over the course of many decades.



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I dunno. I tend to divide urban development into three semi-distinct eras.
fantastic breakdown.

my only (super minor) quibble with your proto-suburban era is that chicago was still building alleys into the 50s, so driveways never became a predominate thing in the city (except for a few oddball fringe hoods like edgebrook or mt. greenwood), or even in a lot of inner ring suburbia (evanston, oak park, cicero, berwyn, etc. are all heavily "alleyed"). few cities in the world have ever committed themselves as solidly to the idea of back alleys as chicago did.
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  #1088  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 6:10 PM
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In the 2006 census, Statscan actually separated pre-1920 and 1920-1945 era housing. Here's Toronto mapped. My amateurish mapping skills on display:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...54&postcount=3

Basically, the area south of St. Clair Ave. was built up before 1920; the old borough of York, Forest Hill, North Toronto, Leaside and Old East York (as well as the Etobicoke lakeshore, the Kingsway and the Scarborough Bluffs) were built up mostly between 1920-1945.

(Downtown of course course saw a lot of new development, and there are some CTs included with newer housing (condos, postwar high rises etc.), but that's pretty close to what I think the built-up urbanized area looked like ca. 1920 and ca. 1945).

Last edited by Docere; Mar 2, 2018 at 6:22 PM.
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  #1089  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 6:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
my only (super minor) quibble with your proto-suburban era is that chicago was still building alleys into the 50s, so driveways never became a predominate thing in the city (except for a few oddball fringe hoods like edgebrook or mt. greenwood), or even in a lot of inner ring suburbia (evanston, oak park, cicero, berwyn, etc. are all heavily "alleyed"). few cities in the world have ever committed themselves as solidly to the idea of back alleys as chicago did.
1920s-era housing which has a garage in an alley still has a garage, so it fits the normal typology of the era. The oddball cities during this era were NYC (because so much multifamily was still being built in the core) and Philly and Baltimore (because they kept doing rowhouses up through 1960 or so, albeit in more "car-friendly" formats).

Pittsburgh had largely abandoned alleys by that era. The most notable early automotive neighborhood (Squirrel Hill) lacks them almost entirely, despite having some higher-density nodes. On the other hand, Stanton Heights (which is mostly 1950s suburbia) has them in its northern half - in part because the plots were laid out many decades before there was significant development.
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  #1090  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 6:34 PM
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1920s-era housing which has a garage in an alley still has a garage, so it fits the normal typology of the era.
oh, absolutely. my super minor quibble was only with the "driveway" part, in the context of chicago. chicago still predominately built garages off of alleys during that time period, which meant no driveways, which meant more tightly spaced housing.

stuff like this is the epitome of the proto-suburban era in chicago, ie. "the bungalow belt". in a different city these homes would all be separated by a 10' driveway and a curb-cut every 50 ft.


source: http://talesofayoungurbanite.blogspo...-bungalow.html


also, it's important to remember that it wasn't all just bungalows in chicago during that era. the city was still building an untold shit-ton of 2-flats, 3-flats, 6-flats, and courtyard buildings all the way up until the great depression.
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  #1091  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 6:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
oh, absolutely. my super minor quibble was only with the "driveway" part, in the context of chicago. chicago still predominately built garages off of alleys during that time period, which meant no driveways, which meant more tightly spaced housing.

stuff like this is the epitome of the proto-suburban era in chicago, ie. "the bungalow belt". in a different city these homes would all be separated by a 10' driveway and a curb-cut every 50 ft.


source: http://talesofayoungurbanite.blogspo...-bungalow.html
That's a strange looking streetscape. Like some alternate reality where cars were never invented. I can't wrap my head around that place.

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  #1092  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 6:51 PM
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That's a strange looking streetscape. Like some alternate reality where cars where never invented. I can't wrap my head around that place.

i'll bet all of those houses have garages. probably could get two cars in them.
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  #1093  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I dunno. I tend to divide urban development into three semi-distinct eras.

Prior to 1890 - The "old urban" or finely-graded urban era.

Urban neighborhoods were pretty much exclusively built to interact with on foot. Thus most neighborhoods had a mixture of residential, commercial, and industrial. Neighborhoods tended to have class diversity as well, as the business owners in the poor neighborhoods, and the "help" in rich neighborhoods needed to be able to walk to their jobs. Larger cities during this age were, to a great degree, a whole lot of smaller cities smashed together, although proto-commuting (omnibus, cable car, ferry, horsecar, railroad commute, etc) did start to be used later in the period - particularly by the wealthy.

As an aside, surviving Old Urban neighborhoods are my favorite to walk through today, because they are such a chaotic jumble of smaller-scale buildings of different eras you never know what you'll find when you turn around the next corner. You could find a random restaurant in the middle of a residential block, or an old mini-mill which has been converted into live-work space.

1890 to 1919 - The (electric) streetcar era.

This era opened up vast new tracks of land which could be developed cheaply and quickly away from the urban core. Separation of uses began, because the new streetcar suburbs contained no employment anchors, and often only a smattering of shops. Blocks became longer, with the new neighborhood (in lower-density cities) dominated by block after block of closely spaced mass-produced single-family detached housing. The new neighborhoods themselves were often not particularly walkable, with the expectation that one would take the streetcar to their place of work or the nearest retail center.

At the same time, the development of the new residential nodes and the establishment of the streetcar system allowed the remaining "old urban" neighborhoods to specialize in many cases on non-residential uses, allowing for higher employment densities. Formerly mixed-use areas tended to become centers of office employment (the CBD), retail, or manufacturing. These new densities required much of the more small-scale, old-urban city to be demolished as the first office towers and factories spanning multiple blocks with thousands of workers took form. This era also saw the rise of dedicated apartment buildings for the first time in the U.S. - which were previously mostly limited to NYC, Boston, and Cincinnati, partially supplanting older forms of high-density living (rooming houses, boarding, hot bunks, long-term hotel residence, etc).

1920-1949 - The proto-suburban era.

For the most part this era is really just the 1920s, because very little got built during the latter period between the Great Depression and World War 2. Regardless, new neighborhoods in most cities built during this period are effectively suburban, because even though car ownership levels were relatively low, they were high among those with access to enough capital to buy homes. Neighborhoods of this vintage are dominated by single-family homes with driveways and garages (albeit detached garages). The exceptions were in dense cities like NYC and Philly, where the transit system was robust and car ownership levels stayed relatively low, but even the neighborhoods built during this era in the higher-density cities feel a bit more spread out than the streetcar suburbs which preceded them.
this isnt bad, there's arguable a more strictly "walking city" typology before horsecarts were used by almost anyone that's probably pre-1870s.
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  #1094  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 6:53 PM
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That's a strange looking streetscape. Like some alternate reality where cars where never invented. I can't wrap my head around that place.
behold, the magic of alleys!

that streetscape might look strange to you, but it's what 90% of chicago neighborhood side streets look like, whether it's with bungalows, or flats, or workers cottages, or some jumbled up mixture of all of it.

driveways just never become a thing here (until proper post-war suburbanization) because of the ubiquitous presence of alleys bisecting nearly every block in the city.

what the back of those houses looks like:


source: https://patricktreardon.com/the-lowl...er-of-chicago/
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  #1095  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 6:58 PM
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https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/governmen...lking-City.cfm

Period 1 - The Walking City (1820-1869)
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  #1096  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 7:43 PM
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My neighborhood mostly has alleys, although my block in particular does not. Instead, there's a "paper street" behind my house - a public right-of-way which was never either paved or turned back into parcels again. I guess they never bothered with it because there's a big "hill" on the other side, which would require the construction of retaining walls on the high-side of the alley in order to have a flat road.

That said, even though alleys exist, only around a quarter of the houses bothered building rear-facing garages. Now, they weren't built with garages because the neighborhood was mostly constructed from 1900 to 1923 - streetcar suburbia prior to mass auto ownership. Indeed, looking through old photos, the streets were not even paved when the streetcar lines first went in. That said, I don't know why more people didn't build garages later, except perhaps because since the standard lot is only around 100 feet deep, you need to use over half of your backyard if you want to build a two-car garage.
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  #1097  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 8:47 PM
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My neighborhood mostly has alleys, although my block in particular does not. Instead, there's a "paper street" behind my house - a public right-of-way which was never either paved or turned back into parcels again. I guess they never bothered with it because there's a big "hill" on the other side, which would require the construction of retaining walls on the high-side of the alley in order to have a flat road.
it's fascinating that there would just be left-over unspoken for space like that in the urban fabric. it looks strange from my chicago perspective.



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That said, I don't know why more people didn't build garages later, except perhaps because since the standard lot is only around 100 feet deep, you need to use over half of your backyard if you want to build a two-car garage.
in chicago lot depths tend to be in the 125'-150' range, which makes an alley-facing garage more doable, so most properties have them, or at a minimum a parking pad off of the alley.

the lot of our 3 flat is 125' deep and we have an oversized parking pad off the alley in back, which only leaves us with a very tiny back garden, roughly 10' deep between the parking pad and the rear decks.

my eventual fantasy is to scrunch down the parking pad a bit and maybe steal an additional 5-7 feet for the garden to make it more usable.

and when car ownership becomes egregiously stupid in the next decade or two, i'd love to get rid of the parking pad altogether.
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  #1098  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 9:15 PM
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1920s-era housing which has a garage in an alley still has a garage, so it fits the normal typology of the era.
Garage in an alley is very common in Toronto's 19th century neighborhoods.

Detached garage structures became more common probably around 1920 or so.

In the wealthier turn of the century streets with detached housing, you start seeing some driveways (often shared). Other houses have turned their small frontyards into driveways:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.65856...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/527...!4d-79.4130156

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.67376...7i13312!8i6656
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  #1099  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 9:20 PM
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^ perusing toronto's street layout on google maps, it doesn't appear to be anywhere close to as ubiquitously alleyed as chicago is.

then again, as i said earlier, there might not be another city on our planet that is as ubiquitously alleyed as chicago is.

yet another detail difference between the two cities.
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Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 9:49 PM
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it's fascinating that there would just be left-over unspoken for space like that in the urban fabric. it looks strange from my chicago perspective.
Paper streets are locally common in some parts of Pittsburgh. In some areas, it seems that the city subdivided parcels and routed where the streets would go, but no houses were built. In others, the area went "back to nature" due to the rugged topography.

Here's an example relatively close to downtown - near the neighborhood of Polish Hill. You can see although Brereton St and Stockholm Street end, there are empty spaces which continue blocks further on the hill, along with subdivided parcels. The vacant parcels are owned by the city and effectively the whole area is now parkland/green space. Some of these plots once held homes, others were never occupied.

It is possible to get "paper streets" expunged and annex your own little slice of the zone if you border one. However, considering there's a big retaining wall between our backyard and the paper street, there would be no no real benefit to our doing so.

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In the wealthier turn of the century streets with detached housing, you start seeing some driveways (often shared). Other houses have turned their small frontyards into driveways:
A newer thing you see done in Pittsburgh in expensive areas is digging out the front yard and having a driveway to a basement garage. Often very doable, considering the foundations are elevated pretty high on Victorian buildings, and sometimes the houses are on a slight hill as well.
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