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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2018, 9:26 PM
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Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal View Post
speaking french and being white doesn't make you a french canadian. To be considered french canadian you need to have ancestors back from the 17th-18th century. they are only 5,1M in Canada.
The number of Canadians of French origin is actually close to double that figure.

Though a couple million of the approx. 10 million French origin Canadians aren't French *speakers* anymore, and conversely the number of French speakers who aren't of French origins number in the hundreds of thousands now.

So Canada has over 7 million "francophones", and of those probably 90% or so are primarily of French origin, and roughly 10% (and growing) are of various non-French origins.
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  #22  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2018, 10:07 PM
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The number of Canadians of French origin is actually close to double that figure.

Though a couple million of the approx. 10 million French origin Canadians aren't French *speakers* anymore, and conversely the number of French speakers who aren't of French origins number in the hundreds of thousands now.

So Canada has over 7 million "francophones", and of those probably 90% or so are primarily of French origin, and roughly 10% (and growing) are of various non-French origins.
ok mais moi je compte seulement ceux qui sont arrivés avant 1800. Les premiers colons.
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  #23  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2018, 10:42 PM
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ok mais moi je compte seulement ceux qui sont arrivés avant 1800. Les premiers colons.
Moi aussi. Close to 10 million Canadians are descended in whole or in part from French colonists who came before 1800. No joke.
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  #24  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2018, 10:45 PM
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^exactly, and this is pretty unique in north America.
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  #25  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2018, 10:49 PM
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^exactly, and this is pretty unique in north America.
There are also almost as many Americans descended from those pre-1800 French colonists too. Between 5-10 million at least.
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  #26  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2018, 11:42 PM
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The average (francophone) Montrealer is probably 96% genetically French.
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In Montreal a few years ago it was estimated that 15% of the "francophone" population has no "French" origins whatsoever. The number is likely quite a bit higher today.
Surely, the number of Francophones who are not descended from French settlers must be higher than those numbers. Montreal is nearly a quarter (23-24%) foreign born, which already excludes by definition, "old stock" French Canadians. I find it hard to believe that quarter (plus the kids of those immigrants) is pretty much still all Anglophone.

I mean, Montreal is what, a third visible minority, right now (and while there's certainly mixing between old stock French-Canadians and these minorities, most are still recent first or second generation Canadians), and I'm sure a lot of them are Francophones now. Add to that, the descendants of non-visible minority white Montrealers descended from earlier waves of immigrants (at least the ones that haven't intermarried with "old stock" French Canadians) who started off English-oriented but eventually switched to, or their kids switched to (even if reluctantly) French, and I'd imagine that the idea that 85-90-something % of Francophones are "old stock" by ancestry seems too high.
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  #27  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 12:03 AM
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Moi aussi. Close to 10 million Canadians are descended in whole or in part from French colonists who came before 1800. No joke.
we're not talking about the same thing here. He was talking about Quebec, not Canada.
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  #28  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 3:41 AM
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Surely, the number of Francophones who are not descended from French settlers must be higher than those numbers. Montreal is nearly a quarter (23-24%) foreign born, which already excludes by definition, "old stock" French Canadians. I find it hard to believe that quarter (plus the kids of those immigrants) is pretty much still all Anglophone.
.
That quarter isn't all anglophone or even mostly anglophone, but it's not francophone either. Of course some of them already know French upon arrival and even more will learn it to live here, but very few of them are actually "francophones" (in that it's their main language) upon arrival. Pretty much just the people arriving from France. The others will learn French but will for the most part remain primarily speakers of their original language (allophones) for their entire lives. Certain in terms of census classification they will.
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  #29  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 3:46 AM
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I mean, Montreal is what, a third visible minority, right now (and while there's certainly mixing between old stock French-Canadians and these minorities, most are still recent first or second generation Canadians), and I'm sure a lot of them are Francophones now. .
Believe it or not there was only a modest amount of mixing until just a generation or two ago. (Though this has now exploded and has become extremely common.)

And keep in mind that until the 1970s, kids of anglophone-francophone marriages in Quebec predominantly became anglophones, and somewhat incredibly kids of allophone-francophone marriages also had very high degrees of anglicization.

So Jean-Pierre Gagnon married Maria Antonelli, and their kids Timothy and Peggy, born and raised in Montreal, were anglophones. It's true. That's what often happened.
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  #30  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 3:47 AM
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Add to that, the descendants of non-visible minority white Montrealers descended from earlier waves of immigrants (at least the ones that haven't intermarried with "old stock" French Canadians) who started off English-oriented but eventually switched to, or their kids switched to (even if reluctantly) French, .
That transition is occurring, but it's occurring slowly over several generations.
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  #31  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 3:54 AM
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That quarter isn't all anglophone or even mostly anglophone, but it's not francophone either. Of course some of them already know French upon arrival and even more will learn it to live here, but very few of them are actually "francophones" (in that it's their main language) upon arrival. Pretty much just the people arriving from France. The others will learn French but will for the most part remain primarily speakers of their original language (allophones) for their entire lives. Certain in terms of census classification they will.
I guess I overestimated the contribution of the international Francophonie in sending would-be new Canadians already fluent in the language. I'm guessing only some of the Middle Easterners or Asians (eg. Lebanese, Algerians, Vietnamese) would be already French-speakers, but I'm thinking a lot of foreign-born Black Montrealers would already arrive knowing French from their home country (eg. Haitians, Francophone Africans).
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  #32  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 3:56 AM
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we're not talking about the same thing here. He was talking about Quebec, not Canada.
Sure, but 5.1 million is basically the exact number of people in all of Canada who answered "French" as ethnic origin on the last Canadian census. So that is obviously where that number comes from.

As you probably know, the Canadian census ethnic origin data is now hopelessly screwed up due to the successful pressure campaign that prompted millions of Canadians of various origins to check off "Canadian" as their ethnicity.

This is especially true in Quebec where the data now gives the impression that the old stock French origin population is lower than it is.

The number of people in Quebec with ancestry going back to the original French settlers is likely more in the 5.5-6 million range.
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  #33  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 3:58 AM
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I guess I overestimated the contribution of the international Francophonie in sending would-be new Canadians already fluent in the language. I'm guessing only some of the Middle Easterners or Asians (eg. Lebanese, Algerians, Vietnamese) would be already French-speakers, but I'm thinking a lot of foreign-born Black Montrealers would already arrive knowing French from their home country (eg. Haitians, Francophone Africans).
Yes, but they're not statistically counted as "francophones" if their native language is something else like Wolof or Creole. Although effectively on the streets, in the schools, etc. they do help boost French, and likely their kids and almost certainly their grandkids will likely be native (as statistically counted) francophones.
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  #34  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 4:01 AM
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Believe it or not there was only a modest amount of mixing until just a generation or two ago. (Though this has now exploded and has become extremely common.)

Keep in mind that until the 1970s, kids of anglophone-francophone marriages in Quebec predominantly became anglophones, and somewhat incredibly kids of allophone-francophone marriages also had very high degrees of anglicization.

So Jean-Pierre Gagnon married Maria Antonelli, and their kids Timothy and Peggy, born and raised in Montreal, were anglophones. It's true. That's what often happened.
Didn't realize it was that common, but again, I can see why there's the whole idea (outdated now, since allophones assimilate to French now) that promoting "multiculturalism" and immigration pulls French Canadians away from their French, and towards English.

I wonder how much of a compromise it was for both sides in many of those marriages or if it was the source of much tensions (even surrounding the issue of how to raise the kids, for instance). I could imagine the allophone wanting to go English for reasons of upward mobility and the thinking that joining the "Anglo" society means they successfully "made it" as an immigrant, while the francophone doesn't want that, but reluctantly goes along. Or perhaps, these were situations where the allophone and francophone were both assimilationist towards English and eagerly thought the same way.
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  #35  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 4:06 AM
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Didn't realize it was that common, but again, I can see why there's the whole idea (outdated now, since allophones assimilate to French now) that promoting "multiculturalism" and immigration pulls French Canadians away from their French, and towards English.

.
Well, not all of them. But *most* of them at this point do.

And there is a still a significant demographic lag from the old days.
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  #36  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 4:09 AM
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I wonder how much of a compromise it was for both sides in many of those marriages or if it was the source of much tensions (even surrounding the issue of how to raise the kids, for instance). I could imagine the allophone wanting to go English for reasons of upward mobility and the thinking that joining the "Anglo" society means they successfully "made it" as an immigrant, while the francophone doesn't want that, but reluctantly goes along. Or perhaps, these were situations where the allophone and francophone were both assimilationist towards English and eagerly thought the same way.
Well, for all their problems francophone Montreal and Quebec were still sufficiently robust at that time that the francophone parent in the couple would have been able to at least partly stymie the assimilation of his or her kids if he or she really wanted to. So I'd say that in most cases they were fairly complicit in what happened - and of course you have to take into account the mores of that era. (When French was widely seen as inferior and a "loser" language in Montreal and even in Quebec.)
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  #37  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 4:28 AM
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Well, for all their problems francophone Montreal and Quebec were still sufficiently robust at that time that the francophone parent in the couple would have been able to at least partly stymie the assimilation of his or her kids if he or she really wanted to. So I'd say that in most cases they were fairly complicit in what happened - and of course you have to take into account the mores of that era. (When French was widely seen as inferior and a "loser" language in Montreal and even in Quebec.)
French is so strong in Montreal and Quebec as a whole now that it seems kind of hard to believe that only decades ago it was seen as a "loser" language, since it was the language of the majority (I think even during Anglo Montreal's peak).

But that kind of thinking makes me understand how, for instance Anglo-Americans were able to assimilate away Louisiana so easily (I mean, I actually expected Louisiana to be like Quebec, when I learned about it first as a kid, and saw the way it was portrayed with all the proud French symbolism and culture depicted on TV etc.). It's possible for a minority (eg. the Anglos) to assimilate the majority I suppose if the minority is seen as high status enough.

I mean, driving around in rural Quebec, and going places where you meet practically monolingual French speakers (I mean, the kind of places where literally stopping and asking for directions was not possible in English, and where I had to muster up the courage to bring forth my Torontonian elementary school-level French to sheepishly talk to the locals, or else I'd get blank stares otherwise), who are often older people, I have to wonder, did these rural small town people really, decades ago, think that their own native French was a loser language compared to the English-speakers in the city of Montreal. And did they ever expect that their kids, if they moved to the city, would lose their French and inevitably become part of Anglo Canada?
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  #38  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 4:34 AM
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Yes, but they're not statistically counted as "francophones" if their native language is something else like Wolof or Creole. Although effectively on the streets, in the schools, etc. they do help boost French, and likely their kids and almost certainly their grandkids will likely be native (as statistically counted) francophones.
I suppose "Francophone" is defined starting from the first, or mother tongue, so even if hey were fluent (say, learned French as a kid early in life, so that the gap isn't as large), but it wasn't literally the first language they learned, then it doesn't count in the stats.
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  #39  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 2:07 PM
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I mean, driving around in rural Quebec, and going places where you meet practically monolingual French speakers (I mean, the kind of places where literally stopping and asking for directions was not possible in English, and where I had to muster up the courage to bring forth my Torontonian elementary school-level French to sheepishly talk to the locals, or else I'd get blank stares otherwise), who are often older people, I have to wonder, did these rural small town people really, decades ago, think that their own native French was a loser language compared to the English-speakers in the city of Montreal. And did they ever expect that their kids, if they moved to the city, would lose their French and inevitably become part of Anglo Canada?
I think the past still taints the attitudes of many people.

It's worth noting that while most small villages in Quebec were always and still are close to 100% francophones, the smaller cities and towns of the province that are today also close to 100% francophone used to have a larger anglophone population today that often was at the top of socio-economic pecking order. So even if you were from a small village you were never far away from a larger town like Shawinigan, Drummondville, Rouyn-Noranda, Thetford Mines, Asbestos, etc. or a host of others where (for a lack of a better term) "anglo hegemony" was a factor to contend with. Especially as your society moved away from subsistence farming and young people began moving to the cities in search of work. They didn't have to go all the way to Montreal in order to face that reality.
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  #40  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 2:13 PM
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All of this is very apparent in the older urban geography of most towns and cities across Quebec.

This is where the bosses lived:
https://www.google.ru/maps/@45.65840...7i13312!8i6656

And this is where their workers lived:
https://www.google.ru/maps/@45.64872...7i13312!8i6656

Here is another example that's a five-minute drive from my place.

Where the bosses lived:
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Rue...2!4d-75.649207

Where their workers lived, literally a few blocks away:
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Rue...!4d-75.6457655

Today, the population in all four areas pictured is very predominantly francophone. But that wasn't always the case.
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