Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

The other thing I wonder is how much space corporate boxes are going to take up. I fully expect a third of the seating to be corporate seats.

The way I understand it is the inverted sections above the main bowl will have boxes in or directly behind them, so I would assume the upper seats will function similar to the upper box seats in the Dome now where there is a full box at the back, and a few rows in front that can be part of the box if the demand is there.

[Oilkountry]

Can you imagine if the Inverted style was around in 2002. Bell MTS place would have been a 17,000 seat arena within the same footprint with more amenities

i kinda like the inverted bowl vs the traditional construction style.

[Franco401]

IIRC the MTS Centre wasn't built to 15k for footprint, it was because that's as big as you can go while being viable for an AHL team or a very small NHL market. Would the great atmosphere in Winnipeg be any better if there was less of a squeeze to buy tickets? Would the Jets have guaranteed sellout crowds every night?

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Where are you getting your information? The CSEC has been begging the city for money for years, and continues to. The city is only just finally warming up to the idea because it fits into the Entertainment District ARP now. The city is calling the shots, not the team. Where would it be at all economically feasible for them to move to?

Entertainment District? I guess it fits the moniker. I wish the stadium site wasn't so isolated as far as downtown locations go. It's hemmed in by the river, the stampede and, the convention centre wall. The only connection to the urban fabric (future) is to the north. IMO, it would be better to swap the convention centre site with the stadium site for creating atmosphere down the road. I agree it's more practical to have the convention centre beside transit.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Franco401

IIRC the MTS Centre wasn't built to 15k for footprint, it was because that's as big as you can go while being viable for an AHL team or a very small NHL market. Would the great atmosphere in Winnipeg be any better if there was less of a squeeze to buy tickets? Would the Jets have guaranteed sellout crowds every night?

Not sure I believe that if I'm being honest. AHL teams play in bigger arenas than the MTS centre. And honestly I think they squeezed the biggest arena possible into that footprint with the budget they had. I would have a hard time believing Chipman would build the MTSC the same way if he could have seen into the future. I'm sure he would have raised the roof a bit and added another row of luxury suits knowing what he knows now. it's a feel good story that the MTS centre is perfect for Winnipeg...But 16,500 would have been the same story. We wouldn't be talking about how it's too big for the jets. just my 2 pennies.

I see another 600-1000 premium seats coming in the buildings near future 400 level seating. 2021ish

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I see another 800-1200 seats coming in the buildings near future. 2021 off season

It's easier (and cheaper) to charge more for current seats than spending money on adding seats and decreasing demand. The arena is large enough for the team as long as they're effectively selling out - why would they ruin a good thing and try to enlarge it?

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's easier (and cheaper) to charge more for current seats than spending money on adding seats and decreasing demand. The arena is large enough for the team as long as they're effectively selling out - why would they ruin a good thing and try to enlarge it?

what happens when the building cant generate enough capital to sustain the jets? I think it's getting closer to that scenario

Math is pretty simple here at $5000 a seat x 800 thats 4M a season on jets gate revenue alone. The bigger picture with concerts and concession you're looking at 6-7M a year in extra revenue. Fact is bell mts place is going to be around another 30 years its tough to think of a scenario where the NHL doesn't outgrow its current revenue capability. You can only keep raising ticket prices to bridge that gap so much before you have to introduce some new revenue generators. The cap itself has risen almost 15M since the jets relocated in 2011. Ticket prices have consistently risen 3-5% a season since then as well. You can see how this is a slippery slope.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

what happens when the building cant generate enough capital to sustain the jets? I think it's getting closure to that scenario

I'm not really sure the team is reaching that point. Revenue YoY is still increasing at a reasonable enough clip to ward off any sort of revenue generation from gameday worries, at least IMO, although I will note that, according to Forbes, team & arena debt is still floating around 30% of the value of the team.

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

You can only keep raising ticket prices to bridge that gap so much before you have to introduce some new revenue generators.

Sponsors on jerseys are going to be one additional revenue generator along with further sponsors on ice and broadcast. I suppose this conversation depends on whether or not you think the NHL relies on gate revenues at the same level in ten years as they do now. Their next media rights contract will likely be an increase considering what the NBA and MLB got for theirs. Overall franchise revenue sharing amongst all teams should be strong enough to keep the owners in Winnipeg happy.

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

The cap itself has risen almost 15M since the jets relocated in 2011. Ticket prices have consistently rose 3-5% a season since then as well.

And the CAD is lower than it was when they first entered which would further handcuff them on revenue capture v. rest of league. Dollar was at parity in 2011 and has been hovering around $0.75 for a few years now. This line of thinking is why I think Quebec City never happens.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Entertainment District? I guess it fits the moniker. I wish the stadium site wasn't so isolated as far as downtown locations go. It's hemmed in by the river, the stampede and, the convention centre wall. The only connection to the urban fabric (future) is to the north. IMO, it would be better to swap the convention centre site with the stadium site for creating atmosphere down the road. I agree it's more practical to have the convention centre beside transit.

Entertainment district isn't really incorrect, the Stampede is there and lots of Events are held there outside the 10 days of the festival (They announced Cirque du Soliel will be there for a month this summer for example), and a new arena that will host many more events will certainly help. The new library and studio bell are there, Arts Commons (home base for theatre Calgary) is about to undergo a major revitalization, and the proposed revitalization of the area should attract lots of bars and restaurants. As long as there are some venues for things like live music involved I think it fits. What will be lacking is a movie theatre, but most any other entertainment option will be in the immediate area.

[Calgarian]

How many boxes are there in MTS? the lack of boxes is one of the biggest reasons the Flames want a new barn so badly.

[GORDBO]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

How many boxes are there in MTS? the lack of boxes is one of the biggest reasons the Flames want a new barn so badly.

MTS has 55 suites, ranging from 12-20 seats per.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Sponsors on jerseys are going to be one additional revenue generator along with further sponsors on ice and broadcast. I suppose this conversation depends on whether or not you think the NHL relies on gate revenues at the same level in ten years as they do now. Their next media rights contract will likely be an increase considering what the NBA and MLB got for theirs.

They Absolutely will. If they didn't the Panthers,Coyotes,Hurricanes ect wouldn't be losing into the double digit millions a season. The extra revenue will help but the problem is this is extra hockey related revenue and again further increases the cap. It's all relative, as it will increase franchise values...it also increases operating expenses. I may have been a little premature saying they are approaching a situation of unprofitably. The jets have a couple great deals made with the city/province (vlt's,taxes breaks) The farm team costs them basically nothing and actually may even add to True Norths profits which isn't generally the case. They own both facilities they operate out of. I'm sure the jets are making money and if our dollar rebounded would be in the top 10 in terms of revenue. I guess what i'm getting to is if the cap keeps rising the MTSC will be a hurdle and adding seats/suites will be the answer and if the cap is 100 million in 10-15 years that's a scary situation. Adding 600-1000 seats isnt gonna tip the scales of demand too much

[esquire]

^ What are other teams going to if the cap hits 100 million? There are a bunch of middling markets that presumably don't have an endless capacity to absorb more payroll costs. Winnipeg has a small rink but every game is 100% sold out at a reasonably high price point, no papering here. How will the Islanders or Coyotes survive on 12,000 fans a night, a good number of whom are probably not paying full price or any price at all for their tickets?

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ What are other teams going to if the cap hits 100 million? There are a bunch of middling markets that presumably don't have an endless capacity to absorb more payroll costs. Winnipeg has a small rink but every game is 100% sold out at a reasonably high price point, no papering here. How will the Islanders or Coyotes survive on 12,000 fans a night, a good number of whom are probably not paying full price or any price at all for their tickets?

The one thing the islanders/Coyotes have is being paid in american dollars on almost any gate/concession/Sponsors ect. I can only imagine in Winnipeg companies are taking half season for boxes/Sponsorship. You don't have as many multi million dollar companies in Winnipeg as Newyork,Arizona. They are losing money no doubt about it, Not saying its sustainable by any means but The coyotes situation isnt permanent eventually something is going to change....same goes for Islanders. They will eventually be playing in arenas/locations that they feel will put them on solid ground. fact is they aren't surviving now at an 80M cap let alone a 100M. Difference between the islanders/coyotes and jets is that those franchises have room to grow and the jets really don't. The building/community/and ticket prices are all pretty tight as it is. Are they in danger? Absolutely not...15 years from now?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ What are other teams going to if the cap hits 100 million? There are a bunch of middling markets that presumably don't have an endless capacity to absorb more payroll costs. Winnipeg has a small rink but every game is 100% sold out at a reasonably high price point, no papering here. How will the Islanders or Coyotes survive on 12,000 fans a night, a good number of whom are probably not paying full price or any price at all for their tickets?

General revenue-sharing from the league (media, sponsorships, etc.). The cap is adjusted based on total league revenues from the season prior, so as long as revenues continue to rise on the whole so will the cap.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradadg.../#431fa874e445

Originally Posted by Forbes

For the 2017-18 season, NHL revenue was $4.86 billion, doubling the total from the 2006-07 season. The NHL was aided by a record high $559.5 million in sponsorship deals. According to Forbes, the average NHL franchise in 2018 was valued at $630 million, a 6% increase from the previous year. Four of the franchises are valued at over $1 billion.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

General revenue-sharing from the league (media, sponsorships, etc.). The cap is adjusted based on total league revenues from the season prior, so as long as revenues continue to rise on the whole so will the cap.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradadg.../#431fa874e445

Well, there we go. Besides, the Jets have never been last in team revenue so I don't see why the league should fret about Winnipeg more than any other team.

The real issue here IMO is the CAD. If it ends up sitting at 60 cents US for al ong time then you end up with an imbalance that I'm not sure can be easily remediated. It has been often mentioned that the Canadian teams are much more sophisticated with their FX hedging than they were back in the 90s, but even that has its limits. Dealing with a 10 cent gap is one thing, 40 cents is quite another.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I can only imagine in Winnipeg companies are taking half season for boxes/Sponsorship. You don't have as many multi million dollar companies in Winnipeg as Newyork,Arizona.

It's interesting, when you walk around the skybox level there are a lot of suites with three or four firms with their name on the door (sharing a suite), and a lot of those companies are ones I have never heard of in my life, or are ones you'd never expect to have a suite. The suites are sold out as far as I can tell, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were other little-known businesses who would be prepared to buy in if the supply became available.

I wonder if any thought has been given to raising the roof to accommodate a ring of suites at the top, sort of like at Rogers Arena in Vancouver?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

The real issue here IMO is the CAD. If it ends up sitting at 60 cents US for al ong time then you end up with an imbalance that I'm not sure can be easily remediated. It has been often mentioned that the Canadian teams are much more sophisticated with their FX hedging than they were back in the 90s, but even that has its limits. Dealing with a 10 cent gap is one thing, 40 cents is quite another.

This is pretty much the biggest concern (along with being a free agency deadzone in some markets...). It's what nearly killed half the Canadian franchises in the 90s.

I'm less concerned about Arizona or Carolina and more concerned about a franchise like Buffalo - stagnant local population, minimal corporate support, small media market (the smallest NHL media market in the US). The main thing in their favour is that their owner is insanely wealthy, which I suppose offsets most of the difficulties. I'm not sure where Buffalo is in 15 years when their arena is approaching 40 years of age. The Isles will eventually have their arena situation resolved so that wraps up the concern around them...

[esquire]

^ On that note, it should be pointed out as well that the Jets majority owner is the 32nd richest guy on the planet. It's not like the old days when we had a local lawyer and businessman owning the team who certainly had a few bucks in his pocket but didn't even register on the global wealth chart. There is more than enough capacity to absorb losses here... to put it in perspective, my annual Jets ticket purchase is a harder hit on my net worth than a $50 million annual operating loss is on Thomson's.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's interesting, when you walk around the skybox level there are a lot of suites with three or four firms with their name on the door (sharing a suite), and a lot of those companies are ones I have never heard of in my life, or are ones you'd never expect to have a suite. The suites are sold out as far as I can tell, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were other little-known businesses who would be prepared to buy in if the supply became available.

I wonder if any thought has been given to raising the roof to accommodate a ring of suites at the top, sort of like at Rogers Arena in Vancouver?

Ive thought about the structure in MTS you could add 3 rows of loge seats similar to what they hung off the 300 level. just by cloning what they did for the press box. This has been done in MSG as well. No need to raise the roof although its not gonna be luxurious it will be an awesome view and comfortable. Further more if you open up the walls behind the 300's like they did for the organ room theirs a great opportunity for a club type atmosphere on the front of the building and more loge seats on the rear.

as for the hanging loge seats. Little ceasers arena in Detroit comes to mind