SkyTrain Station Renovations

[officedweller]

Yup - "opportunistic rezonings" - take any previously consolidated parcel (commercial or industrial), whether or not close to rapid transit, and upzone it while leaving surrounding single family homes with the old zoning. The neighbours don't complain too much because its better than the previous industrial site or a large parking lot.

i.e. Carling O'Keefe (Arbutus Lands), King Edward Village (Safeway), Collingwood Village, Portico (Pacific Press), BC Transit bus yard (Pacifica on Cambie), CityGate (former cement plant), Oakridge redevelopment, El Dorado Hotel, Marpole Safeway, Marine Gateway, East Fraser Lands, Southeast False Creek.

[SpongeG]

its too cost prohibitive - houses in that area must be pushing $1,000,000 each - a developer would have to pay market prices for each one and to get a decent size development would cost a fortune

I thought the areas were already rezoned around the stations anyway - its just not something developers wanna touch

[officedweller]

Not for Nanaimo and 29th Ave. on the Expo Line - the City has had a policy in place preventing densification.

[Metro-One]

What a frustrating city. They go on these anti-viaduct and bike lane crusades all in the name of their "green agenda," yet they zone against increasing density around these mass transit stations?

Am I missing something here? This is one of the main reasons why I don't buy their "more land" excuses in regards to removing the viaducts.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

What a frustrating city. They go on these anti-viaduct and bike lane crusades all in the name of their "green agenda," yet they zone against increasing density around these mass transit stations?

Am I missing something here? This is one of the main reasons why I don't buy their "more land" excuses in regards to removing the viaducts.

You are confusing East Vancouver with Vancouver "proper". I don't think that Vancouver city council would be able to locate Nanaimo station on the map.

[jlousa]

There is nothing stopping rezoning applications at 29th or Nanaimo, there simply isn't any free property to rezone. If a developer were able to accumulate enough property they would be free to try and rezone just like they are anywhere else in the city. The fact is the land is too expensive to accumulate because it's already so dense, the lots in the area are smaller then even the East Van norm of 33"*120" they also have the largest percentage of basement suites in the city. The density in both areas is considerable higher then Vancouver's average and believe it or not put a a lot of the tower in the park suburban stations to shame. Density != towers. Both stations will be undergoing a zoning review shortly as well which will give much more power to individual landowners to upzone their existing properties, so land accumulation isn't mandatory nor is the onerous rezoning process burdening the average Joe.
The city hasn't been too interested as simply the gain is going to be very minimal and there won't be much lift generated for civic coffers.

[officedweller]

There used to be (i.e. following the opening of the Expo Line and in through the 1990s) a policy of the City not to rezone simply because of proximity to SkyTrain stations - I had seen it referenced in Council Minutes from the 1990s. That has only recently changed due to the Canada Line with precinct-wide rezonings. That's also the reason there are so many empty lots near Nanaimo Station - remember how old the Expo Line is - property prices were not sky-high when that line was built - so what else was preventing redevelopment? The City.

The City hasn't entertained the idea of up-zoning areas such as Broadway & Commercial until recently - and even then, that's on the Safeway site, not existing single family parcels. The Transit Village concept for the Broadway & Commercial precinct does not contemplate up-zoning single family housing on a precinct wide basis (which would allow developers to onsolidate lands without it being a case by case crap shoot as to whether rezoning would be allowed).

Found this article on transit-oriented development on a Google search:

http://www.istp.murdoch.edu.au/ISTP/.../canadian.html

A community-based process

Generally, the zoning in Vancouver has resulted from a planning process which has a long tradition of community involvement. Redevelopment is a sensitive issue anywhere in the world and particular efforts have been made by local authorities in Vancouver to consult with the mostly single-family housing areas to be affected by the changes.

For example, in the City of Vancouver, local area strategies were designed for residents and businesses located within a ten minute or 800m walk of stations. This was done through public meetings and the establishment of local advisory committees (City of Vancouver, 1987b).

The plans for intensifying development were pursued with the following specific aims and were supported by a series of specific strategies. The aims were to:

Provide new housing within station precincts without compromising the quality of life for existing residents;
Create sub-centers with diversity and character;
Encourage medium density residential development;
Encourage commercial, mixed use development;
Increase train patronage;
Reduce the impacts of rail generated traffic and parking problems (eg through enhancing the pedestrian environment);
Update facilities required to house future population increases such as parks and libraries;
(City of Vancouver, 1987a; City of Vancouver, 1987b; City of Vancouver, 1987c).

An important aspect of these local area strategies was that general, widespread redevelopment within the station precincts was not undertaken. Rather, development was concentrated on publicly owned vacant sites, land severely impacted by the rail system and under-utilised or derelict land (City of Vancouver, 1987a). Construction on only these land types helped to reduce community fears that the development was out of character for the local area and that re-development within the station precincts would compromise existing lifestyles.

Note the references for that article:.

City of Vancouver (1987a) Broadway Station area plan: Summary. City of Vancouver Planning Department, Vancouver.

City of Vancouver (1987b) Joyce Station area plan: Summary. City of Vancouver Planning Department, Vancouver.

City of Vancouver (1987c) Nanaimo/29th Avenue Station areas Plan: Summary. City of Vancouver Planning Department, Vancouver.

Here are two of them:

Broadway Station Area Plan Summary 1987
http://former.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/guidelines/B020.pdf

Nanaimo/29th Avenue Station Areas Plan Summary 1987
http://former.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/guidelines/N003.pdf

***************

Broadway Station Area Plan

The preamble includes a tidbit about how CoV wanted to cut and cover (!!) under Commercial Drive ($14 million) but the Province didn't want to - talks broke down and the line ended up in the alley where it is today (and was never approved by the City of Vancouver along that segment).

The Plan also tells a story that should not be quickly forgotten. It is the story of a community's fight to overcome the physical reality of ALRT in its midst.

***************

Nanaimo/29th Avenue Station Areas Plan

Under the heading "New Development Opportunities" this plan identifies the only sites tht would be allowed to up-zone to multi-family:

"Through discussion with the Nanaimo/29th Avenue Station Areas Planning Advisory Committee, it was agreed that wholesale redevelopment was not desirable but that residential development should be directed to sites meeting the following criteria:
- vacant city-owned sites
- sites severely impacted by ALRT
- sites zoned for uses other than residential
- sites either under-utilized or containing derelict properties.

... 21 sites were identified aong the ALRT alignment ...
... community input was received ...
Straw votes were held to determine resident support or opposition to redevelopment.
The sites recommended for rezoning and redevelopment in this chapter are the result of this process.
...

Maybe someone would like to compare the recommended sites with those that have actually been developed.
I think only sites 'G' (partially developed) and site 'P' have been developed. A satellite view on Google Maps shows many of the sites as vacant land and many still having single family homes.

************

I also found the following CD-1 Rezoning bylaws, which requires multi-family housing to be compatible with existing single family houses:

29TH AVENUE STATION AREA - CD-1 GUIDELINES
http://former.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/.../CD-1/T003.pdf

NANAIMO STATION AREA - CD-1 GUIDELINES
http://former.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/.../CD-1/N001.pdf

This is the large apartment complex next to Nanaimo Station:
http://former.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/.../CD-1/N002.pdf

***********

Even the 2001 rezoning for the Broadway & Commercial area when the Millennium Line was built does not impose the precinct wide increases in density that are currently being proposed for the Canada Line precincts.
In 2001, the amended zoning bylaws provided for conditional zoning with height limits to be raised to a maximum of 18.4 metres but only immediately adjacent to the station.

http://former.vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/...010802/pe7.htm

[red-paladin]

You can't say that the fact threre are houses already there makes it impossible to redevelop. Downtown Poco was mostly single family houses and even small commercial buildings and one by one almost every block has been bought up and redeveloped into four storey buildings at the city's instigation. In fact, many of the property owners liked the fact that their land was worth more when it was rezoned, and some people I know waited years for a developer to consolidate their block, to get a higher offer on the property. It's just that the City of Vancouver doesn't really support densification in some of these areas and doesn't look at the good of the population of the city at large, but only what the people in that block of land want. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are complete BANANAs and don't want anything to ever change.

[nova9]

Originally Posted by WBC

You are confusing East Vancouver with Vancouver "proper". I don't think that Vancouver city council would be able to locate Nanaimo station on the map.

which is why we need a ward system in city hall rather than just having these area non-specific councillors.

[SpikePhanta]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

You can't say that the fact threre are houses already there makes it impossible to redevelop. Downtown Poco was mostly single family houses and even small commercial buildings and one by one almost every block has been bought up and redeveloped into four storey buildings at the city's instigation. In fact, many of the property owners liked the fact that their land was worth more when it was rezoned, and some people I know waited years for a developer to consolidate their block, to get a higher offer on the property. It's just that the City of Vancouver doesn't really support densification in some of these areas and doesn't look at the good of the population of the city at large, but only what the people in that block of land want. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are complete BANANAs and don't want anything to ever change.

Also around Edmonds and south of Royal Oak.
Edmonds = all the town houses and Park 360&Reflections were once houses.
royal oak = Many Town houses on where single family houses were.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

You can't say that the fact threre are houses already there makes it impossible to redevelop. Downtown Poco was mostly single family houses and even small commercial buildings and one by one almost every block has been bought up and redeveloped into four storey buildings at the city's instigation. In fact, many of the property owners liked the fact that their land was worth more when it was rezoned, and some people I know waited years for a developer to consolidate their block, to get a higher offer on the property. It's just that the City of Vancouver doesn't really support densification in some of these areas and doesn't look at the good of the population of the city at large, but only what the people in that block of land want. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are complete BANANAs and don't want anything to ever change.

There is a good chance that land values in Downtown poco were cheap enough in the past that developers were able to buy up block after block of detached homes and redevelop them.

Most developers could not afford to buy lots of houses around 29th Ave and Nanaimo and redevelop them. Also a developer could buy one house. But may have to sit on it for the next 10-20 years waiting for other houses to sell. Most developers don't want to do that so they won't.

So the only thing a developer can do is take an old house and rebuild it with more dwellings on that lot. Or in cases of double lots split the lot up and build two homes.

There is nothing stopping the city from buying up the lots as they come onto the market. But of course people would be upset and complain about how the city has all these lots and why don't they sell them. I have the feeling though that this is what will happen as the price of land gets to the point that most people can't afford to buy a home on it. At that point the city will then buy up the lots over time. Then rezone and sell the lots to a developer to develop new residential.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cabotp

There is nothing stopping the city from buying up the lots as they come onto the market.

That's exactly what the city's been doing at Clarendon Street between 33rd & 34th in order to build the Clarendon Connector. But it's taken something like a decade so far, and I still don't think they have all the space they need.

[Mac Write]

When they buy the house do they rent it out to cover costs until they need the actual lot?

[jlousa]

Rents wouldn't cover the expense, commercial mortgages cost significantly more then residential mortgages plus you have the overhead of managing the property. Property accumulation only works in currently undesirable locations, if an area is desirable you need to pay a premium to convince people to sell and that kills already thin margins.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

When they buy the house do they rent it out to cover costs until they need the actual lot?

I don't know what the city's policy in general is, but for the Clarendon connector the houses have been demolished and the land is now empty lots.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by nova9

which is why we need a ward system in city hall rather than just having these area non-specific councillors.

Agreed. The sooner the better.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I don't know what the city's policy in general is, but for the Clarendon connector the houses have been demolished and the land is now empty lots.

After you mentioned it. I took a look on google. I can see the two empty lots. From what I can see they still need to buy the two lots on the west side.

I'm pretty sure the owners of those houses have gotten constant letters in the mail asking if they would like to sell.

This proves why it can take years for a new development to happen. A lot of times land has to bought up. And that alone can take years. Especially when the land you need is owned by multiple owners. If you only have to deal with one owner. It is far more easier. Which is why we have seen higher density residential in former industrial or commercial areas. The developers only had to deal with a small amount of owners. While in the case of a detached homes. There are far more owners that have to be bought from. Thus slowing down the process.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by cabotp

There is a good chance that land values in Downtown poco were cheap enough in the past that developers were able to buy up block after block of detached homes and redevelop them.

Most developers could not afford to buy lots of houses around 29th Ave and Nanaimo and redevelop them. Also a developer could buy one house. But may have to sit on it for the next 10-20 years waiting for other houses to sell. Most developers don't want to do that so they won't.

So the only thing a developer can do is take an old house and rebuild it with more dwellings on that lot. Or in cases of double lots split the lot up and build two homes.

There is nothing stopping the city from buying up the lots as they come onto the market. But of course people would be upset and complain about how the city has all these lots and why don't they sell them. I have the feeling though that this is what will happen as the price of land gets to the point that most people can't afford to buy a home on it. At that point the city will then buy up the lots over time. Then rezone and sell the lots to a developer to develop new residential.

exactly and what is happenning in east van and thanks to rezoning is single detached houses are being knocked down and replaced by duplexes even some duplexes wiith two basement suites that are sold as separate units - where my friend lived in east van we saw quite a few of those happening over the time he was there and on of his friends even looked at buying one of those kind of basement suites

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

exactly and what is happenning in east van and thanks to rezoning is single detached houses are being knocked down and replaced by duplexes even some duplexes wiith two basement suites that are sold as separate units - where my friend lived in east van we saw quite a few of those happening over the time he was there and on of his friends even looked at buying one of those kind of basement suites

Is that actually rezoning.

Currently most of vancouver is zoned as RS-1. Which is the detached house with a suite and a laneway house. Is there now a new zone code for a case where a lot has a laneway house + 3 dwellings in the main house.

Rezoning to me would mean the zone code for that lot has changed. Which I don't think a developer has to do in a situation that you described.

I also don't think you can buy those basement suites. You can only rent them.

I know there is a house just recently built that is that 3 lots from mine. It has a upstairs dwelling, 2 downstairs dwellings and a laneway house. I believe it sold for about $900,000 before it was even finished. And I know someone is already living in the laneway house. I haven't seen them though.

[SpikePhanta]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I know there is a house just recently built that is that 3 lots from mine. It has a upstairs dwelling, 2 downstairs dwellings and a laneway house. I believe it sold for about $900,000 before it was even finished. And I know someone is already living in the laneway house. I haven't seen them though.

Is it possible to do, a laneway house, one basement, two ground floor dwellings and an up stairs dwelling?

Seems like a good way to pay for morgage and get some extra income