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View Poll Results: Does Philadelphia have apron let with its economy and attracting new companies???
YES 17 53.13%
NO 15 46.88%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 11:04 PM
IrishIllini IrishIllini is offline
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
SF and SJ are the same city.

Philly gets lots of pluses and minuses based on proximity to NY. Agreed that it's an interesting position. Definitely it would stand out more as the capital of a 1000-mile radius though.
SJ and SF are considered one CSA. They are two separate MSAs and developed and function separately. There is a close relationship between the two. Just as there is with Dallas and Fort Worth & DC and Baltimore. I'm just saying SF's existence hasn't seemed to put any caps on SJ. I think Philadelphia does well by most measures.
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  #42  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 11:15 PM
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I'd say San Jose is more of an extension of San Francisco (Bay Area), and more interconnected, and Dallas and Fort Worth are even more so. Cities like Baltimore and Washington are close, but still operate independently with their own, independent institutions.
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  #43  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 11:28 PM
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I think the problem in Philly are problems that maybe you dont hear about because you live there. But Philly has been getting a bad rap on its crime stats, and its public school system has a failing grade, two of the worst things to fail in. Also the parking burden is bad too. Outside of those factors it seems like its ok.
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  #44  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I get that most of the housing stock isn't very nice, but nor is Philly's when you get too far from Rittenhouse Square. South Philly is full of the same crappy construction with no trees and above ground power lines.
Like other older, Northeast cities, much of Philly's architecture has been bastardized by modernization, but few cities do indeed offer such a sturdy housing stock. A pedantic point in this discussion, but it's almost an entirely masonry-based city, with most of the inner-suburbs following suit (which also makes it ripe for infinite adaptive re-use options).
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  #45  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 1:11 AM
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Originally Posted by IrishIllini View Post
SJ and SF are considered one CSA. They are two separate MSAs and developed and function separately. There is a close relationship between the two. Just as there is with Dallas and Fort Worth & DC and Baltimore. I'm just saying SF's existence hasn't seemed to put any caps on SJ. I think Philadelphia does well by most measures.
Being separate MSAs doesn't mean they function separately. It's a continuation of the same elongated city. There's no break between the two, and the biggest swath of jobs is right in the middle.

Suburbs don't get big without the core city. Maybe an independent city would have grown in the South Bay regardless, but the current one is part of the larger whole.
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  #46  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 7:30 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
I'm not touting Philly as being competitive with NY, but it is incontestably underutilized...financial firms with big salaries could offer their employees a far higher standard of living in philly (and suburbs) than in New york. great schools, big, cheap, and beautiful suburban or in-city houses close to rail links, quick commutes....the availability of said things is getting scarcer in new york, meanwhile philly has plenty.

south philly is kind of irrelevant for the discussion...fact is that the main line/west chester etc have a lot of advantages vs short hills, the north shore, and greenwich.
But financial firms aren't going to relocate in this way. Finance is an industry that depends on clustering, and it always has.

Philly has and should be trying to lure more biotech/pharma from suburban Jersey, or something like that.

South Philly is only relevant because it's got consistent urban built form (what younger people are looking for). It's just not very nice, but it's better than north Philly, which has a lot of abandonment. Otherwise we're just talking about suburbs, which are largely the same anywhere. You could make the same case for Cleveland or Detroit suburbs.
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  #47  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 1:39 PM
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It has been brought to my attention that the long time petroleum and energy company known as Sunoco has left Philadelphia and decamped to bucolic Newtown Square in Delaware County. I believe the main reason for Sunoco leaving Philadelphia has a lot to do with the current business tax structure currently in place. And for a long standing Philadelphia company like Sunoco to leave Philadelphia is like GM leaving Detroit, USX leaving Pittsburgh, and Anheiser Busch leaving St Louis: that company was tied to the city.

And many can claim that Sunoco is a "low-tech" company, meaning that the company came to sucess during the early 20th century, and that Phila needs to attract high-tech companies, and many have touted the bioengineering sector as something that the city should embrace, but as of today, I have yet to see a major bioengineering company based in Philadelphia, the way Genzyme is headquartered in nearby Boston.

And speaking about the city, a lot of companies have left Philadelphia for similar reasons. Sovereign Bank left Phila for Boston after being acquired by Banco Santander of Spain and left for Boston. We could've attracted a major company like GE to Philadelphia had a certain tower (the ACC) came to fruition in lieu of the current one (the CITC), but GE left NYC to CT, and finally to Boston. GSK, I believe left its American headquarters to Raleigh, NC, Lincoln Financial left Philly for Radnor after we attracted it from IL, and we could've attracted a few more companies here in Phila (TD Bank, Black Rock, Wawa).

As much as the fanfare for a second HQ for Amazon is buzzing here, I believe it's too little, too late, as the city and the powers that be dragged their feet on this business tax situation for far too long! We'll never get an Amazon or anything akin to it partly because of taxes an partly because the city and state gov't hasn't really done anything to promote Philadelphia as a place to do business to way IL promotes Chicago, MA promotes Boston, GA promotes Atlanta, and FL promotes Miami, the latter two also not having a state income tax, making it highly attractive for workers and another major reason why FL and GA are rapidly growing!

But, seriously, why is Philadelphia (and PA) stagnating in economic and population growth, but other cities and states are expanding theirs? Boston looks to be on par with NYC and Chicago when it comes to attracting major companies, Atlanta, once a regional rail hub in GA during the Civil War, has transformed itself into a major air hub, a major education center with Georgia Tech and the black colleges (Morehouse, Spellman, etc.), and had companies like Coca-Cola, Home Depot, Delta, SunTrust, and Georgia-Pacific within its city limits, and Miami was transformed from a swampy town of a few thousand in 1900, into a major metropolis that's practically considered the Hub of Latin America, as well as an international banking center and a major economic center in its own right (Burger King, Carnival, Norwegian Cruise Lines, American Airlines). And when the 2020 Census comes in a couple years, Atlanta and Miami proper won't surpass Philadelphia's city population, but the metro areas of both those cities will eventually surpass ours.

I don't believe you can compare Phila to Atlanta and Miami since those cities are relatively younger, but peer cities like NYC, SF, and Boston continue to grow in population, DC has even more growth despite the lack of major companies in its metro area, and probably the closest comparable city to ours, Chicago, has even more stagnation in certain parts, but has an even more healthier downtown core that what we can even imagine. I'm afraid that Philadelphia is going to be a Beta city by 2020 as well because the city and state gov't hasn't put any effort to really make this city an international and world class destination that's deserved. I'd love to hear more opinions on this matter.
Sunoco moved out of the offices on Market Street two years ago. The Sunoco you know of was bought by Dallas based ETP in 2012. The powers to be are in Dallas. The office in Newtown Sqaure was an "HQ" for the gas retail portion of the company for about 8 months when they opened the new HQ offices on Park Lane in Dallas in Spring of 2016. Now with the sale of the company owned gas stations to 7-11.....there will be less employees in Newtown Square. However, we aren't dead. Just a new focus on what we do best...sell and distribute gasoline and diesel.

Last edited by PhillyRising; Oct 14, 2017 at 2:05 PM.
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  #48  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 1:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
one thing must be said about philly: you shouldn't have a drive-in mcdonalds and popeyes within a short walking distance of a major orchestral music hall.

on the other hand the barnes museum is one of the top 10 museums in the US.

for decades philly suffers/suffered from being a jack of all trades city, while specialized cities gradually outcompeted it....

it's odd that pennsylvania has become one of the hydrocarbon powerhouses of the world via the marcellus shale in the last 10 years, and have so little to show for it in Philly.
The old Sunoco Marcus Hook refinery has been repurposed to handle the production from the Marcellus Shale. One pipeline was repurposed to carry it from Western PA to Marcus Hook (that used to carry gasoline and diesel from Marcus Hook to Western PA) and they are currently building the second one along side that has faced a lot of lawsuits from communities across PA. Much of what is producted in the shale region is being exported from the Philadelphia area.

Last edited by PhillyRising; Oct 14, 2017 at 2:03 PM.
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  #49  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 1:54 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Lived in Center City Philly. It's a quintessential east coast city.

But its problem then is the same as its problem now: it's 80 miles down the road from the capital of the Universe. That will always restrict its economy
I don't think New York is as much a factor as the horrible tax structure of the city and the fact that some business/city government leaders in Philadelphia like being big fish in a half empty pond. They like their control over who gets what and when.
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  #50  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 2:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
But financial firms aren't going to relocate in this way. Finance is an industry that depends on clustering, and it always has.

Philly has and should be trying to lure more biotech/pharma from suburban Jersey, or something like that.

South Philly is only relevant because it's got consistent urban built form (what younger people are looking for). It's just not very nice, but it's better than north Philly, which has a lot of abandonment. Otherwise we're just talking about suburbs, which are largely the same anywhere. You could make the same case for Cleveland or Detroit suburbs.
There are nice sections of South Philadelphia. North Philadelphia has great bones and a lot of transit connections. The prosperity is slowly creeping up North Broad Street. In 50 years, North Philadelphia won't be the slum it's considered today.
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  #51  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by UrbanRevival View Post
Like other older, Northeast cities, much of Philly's architecture has been bastardized by modernization, but few cities do indeed offer such a sturdy housing stock. A pedantic point in this discussion, but it's almost an entirely masonry-based city, with most of the inner-suburbs following suit (which also makes it ripe for infinite adaptive re-use options).
It's not just the modern bastardization. It's that these areas were originally built for the working class, not the gentry, so the "bones" aren't actually that good. They're too small, the ceilings are too low, the sidewalks are too narrow, the streets have no trees, etc.

Urban neighborhoods primed for revival are really areas that were built for the wealthy, went into decline, and can now be "rediscovered". Neighborhoods built for the working class, even out of Brick for the 19th century working class, just aren't that nice.
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  #52  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 5:12 PM
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^ What's wrong with keeping "working class housing stock" as rentals for young professionals?

You can't entirely have a city full of rich millionaires.
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  #53  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 6:59 PM
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^ What's wrong with keeping "working class housing stock" as rentals for young professionals?

You can't entirely have a city full of rich millionaires.
Because those young professionals would need to renovate that working class housing stock to make it livable (even for young professionals), and they're not going to do that if they're rentals.

In the UK it works, because the average house size for the whole country is about 1300 square feet. There are lots of working class "cottages" built for factory workers in London that are worth lots of money (like the Hillgate Village area near me).

But these South Philly neighborhoods need LOTS of investment to make them places that young professionals want to live.
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  #54  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 8:59 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
It's not just the modern bastardization. It's that these areas were originally built for the working class, not the gentry, so the "bones" aren't actually that good. They're too small, the ceilings are too low, the sidewalks are too narrow, the streets have no trees, etc.
Have to disagree with you here. At least in terms of your characterization of the "bones" of the neighborhood.

Yes, in their current form there are plenty of working-class neighborhoods that wouldn't necessarily appeal to upwardly-mobile young professionals, but trees/greenery may be added, fixtures are easily replaced, and modernization (e.g., gut rehabs or complete demolition and replacement) is now widespread across South Philadelphia. Walkable, finely-grained, mixed-use and narrow-streets neighborhoods are also a highly sought-after commodity, particularly in the American context where such authentic and organic urban living environments are extremely scarce relative to the "average" American built form.

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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
But these South Philly neighborhoods need LOTS of investment to make them places that young professionals want to live.
That's precisely what is happening. As noted above, the private sector clearly has been successful in redeveloping/renovating these neighborhoods into something more appealing for modern and upscale tastes, or else Philly wouldn't be considered one of the US "capitals" for flipping:

http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...illy_area.html

Last edited by UrbanRevival; Oct 14, 2017 at 9:12 PM.
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  #55  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 9:08 PM
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again, south phillly is an established italian neighborhood with tiny rowhouses for the most part. it's not going to be, nor does it need to be, a candidate for hipsterification.

in contrast, center city has its own brownstone brooklyn surrounding the skyscrapers. northwest and west philly have plenty of neighborhoods that would be acceptable for young professionals. ergo, philly has, in fact, much better suburban and in-city family-friendly housing stock than its east coast peers.

have you ever been to mt airy, or roxborough, or manayunk? germantown avenue has some of the most gorgeous in-city housing stock in the country. you could move there, send the kids to private school, and viola!

the only problem is north philly's partial dilapidation, now getting addressed with the revival of north broad and places like kensington, northern liberties, and fishtown.
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  #56  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2017, 1:22 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
in contrast, center city has its own brownstone brooklyn surrounding the skyscrapers. northwest and west philly have plenty of neighborhoods that would be acceptable for young professionals. ergo, philly has, in fact, much better suburban and in-city family-friendly housing stock than its east coast peers.
Philly has much cheaper housing, but I don't think it has a vast amount of professional-friendly housing. Philly rowhomes are nothing like Brooklyn-type brownstones. Typical blocks in South, North and West Philly are probably impervious to gentrification.

Yes, Center City has a large zone of very nice, professional-oriented housing, but that's already very expensive and desirable.

There are also many nice suburbs with homes half the cost of NYC suburbs, but that's true in every older metro. Cleveland has the same type of suburbs for half the cost of Philly.
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  #57  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2017, 3:10 AM
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...
There are also many nice suburbs with homes half the cost of NYC suburbs, but that's true in every older metro. Cleveland has the same type of suburbs for half the cost of Philly.
But Cleveland isn't commuting distance to Manhattan.
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  #58  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2017, 12:46 PM
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Large swaths of South Philly & North Philly are already gentrifying, and in places you wouldn't have expected 10 years ago.

North Philly's vacant lot problem turns into an asset. Francisville, the neighborhood directly east of tony Fairmount, is in full developmental explosion with a ton of new construction (and basically will have been completely rebuilt in less than a decade.) As is Brewerytown, the neighborhood directly to the north of Fairmount. But even when there isn't a vacant lot to build on, that's not stopping development. In Francisville, there are two or three blocks of hobbit-sized single story houses that were built with parking in the front. They're all being bought, torn down, and replaced with 3 story behemoths (of sadly varying quality) at breakneck speed.

Tear downs are actually a thing in South Philly as well. Point Breeze - which as recently as this decade was an almost universally a lower-income african-american neighborhood, has seen a bunch of development - much of it teardowns - that has led to a large increase in mostly white young professionals, with all of the attendant displacement issues that surround gentrification.

And that is far from an exhaustive list of gentrifying neighborhoods in North or South Philly. Northern Liberties is nearly completely built-out, and development has jumped north across Girard Avenue. You also have development going on in West Poplar, Callowhill, around Temple, etc. Development is even snaking it's way up the El, which I frankly didn't expect. Meanwhile, in South Philly, Passyunk Square is as desirable place for young professionals to live as anywhere else in Philly, and I know this because nearly all of my younger colleagues buy their first house there. The small rowhomes make great starter homes, in an authentic neighborhood with unique amenities (such as the Italian Market) that has easy access to Center City either by foot or the subway, so the size of the housing stock is not actually that much of an issue. It's actually an asset, as you can still afford to live just minutes away on foot from one of the truly great city cores in North America.

In the end, the thing that matters, what drives most of the development, is proximity to Center City and all that it has to offer, which is almost unique among American cities. As the outer neighborhoods of Center City have developed and have introduced more and more amenities (with resulting higher rents / home values), Center City's boundaries have semi-officially pushed south & north, so that the official boundaries - Vine to South, feel artificial, and increasingly the recently designated Greater Center City boundaries - Girard to Washington, feel justified, meaning that Center City is literally eating up parts of North & South Philly and has nearly doubled in size. What we're seeing now is that anything within those boundaries or adjacent to them is exploding with development.
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  #59  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2017, 2:23 PM
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https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ69mq2H...y=wefilmphilly

When the 2020 census numbers come out, Philly will be over 1.6 million for the first time since 1980 (stopping decades of population lost - which has already happened, and back to its highest pop. in 40 years ... not so bad for the old 'Birthplace of America' - (now if only Amazon comes here!).

Last edited by Jawnadelphia; Oct 15, 2017 at 2:25 PM. Reason: Photo credit: wefilmphilly on IG
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  #60  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2017, 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
But Queens is mostly 30 minutes or less by subway from Manhattan, which offers more of all of that than anywhere.

I get that most of the housing stock isn't very nice, but nor is Philly's when you get too far from Rittenhouse Square. South Philly is full of the same crappy construction with no trees and above ground power lines.

And Queens has some of the best food in the world. Seriously.
LOL. BS statement right here. Plenty of great housing stock outside of Rittenhouse.
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