Transit Fantasies

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by mr.x

I'm all for it, but only if the West End densifies even further.

I rather think it will !!

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by nname

Maybe using a Monorail would serve the same purpose at a much lower cost.

You mean something like this?


source:http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...-_monorail.jpg

I've always wondered what Yaletown would be like if we built the new buildings around the monorail.

P.S. We should have brought back Skyride and the McBarge for the Olympics.

[Alex Mackinnon]

I've been working on this for a while mostly just to teach my self sketchup. It's a mockup of a connector between the Georgia Viaduct and Hwy 1. This should be the first of 3 parts if I have the time to finish it. If anyone wants the model just let me know as is it sits at 14.4 MB. Let me know what ya think.












All renders are my own. Overview map done using google earth, edited by myself.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I've been working on this for a while mostly just to teach my self sketchup. It's a mockup of a connector between the Georgia Viaduct and Hwy 1. This should be the first of 3 parts if I have the time to finish it. If anyone wants the model just let me know as is it sits at 14.4 MB. Let me know what ya think.












All renders are my own. Overview map done using google earth, edited by myself.

Wow. That's an impressive mockup. Well done. You have some really interesting ideas. I like 'em.

[Canadian Mind]

Nice, someone who can creatively put roads underground. Wish all roads in downtown could be stacked like this with pedestrian walkways up top, and the streets underground.

Question is, why only 60kph? Is it not a dedicated expressway? biggest complaint about the Golden Ears bridge and approach is that, while it isn't a highway, it's speeds are far too slow (60kph). Maybe highway speeds of 80-90kph, but not expressway speeds of 110-120kph would be more appropriate?

[DKaz]

Because the West Coast Express travels 60km/h most of the way between Waterfront and Port Moody and takes 10 minutes to get from Vancouver to the 2nd Narrows Bridge and 22 minutes to Port Moody Station.

70km/h is a good speed though. 80 underground with no shoulders would be scary.

Looks great!

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Because the West Coast Express travels 60km/h most of the way between Waterfront and Port Moody and takes 10 minutes to get from Vancouver to the 2nd Narrows Bridge and 22 minutes to Port Moody Station.

70km/h is a good speed though. 80 underground with no shoulders would be scary.

Looks great!

Personally I think the idea of doing a tunnel like this without shoulders would be idiotic. Where the hell is a person gonna pull over if they get a flat tire or other car problems? who's to say the car can make it up the ramp?

All the same though, I'd rather see the lane be dedicated to transit/commercial/ 3+ person HOV vehicles only. Leave the SOV to take the slow routes above.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

All the same though, I'd rather see the lane be dedicated to transit/commercial/ 3+ person HOV vehicles only. Leave the SOV to take the slow routes above.

HOT = High Occupancy Toll, just like on Highway 167 south of Seattle. If you're an HOV, there is no toll. If you're an SOV, you pay toll.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

Nice, someone who can creatively put roads underground. Wish all roads in downtown could be stacked like this with pedestrian walkways up top, and the streets underground.

Question is, why only 60kph? Is it not a dedicated expressway? biggest complaint about the Golden Ears bridge and approach is that, while it isn't a highway, it's speeds are far too slow (60kph). Maybe highway speeds of 80-90kph, but not expressway speeds of 110-120kph would be more appropriate?

I figured it would make sense just so you could fit it in smaller places. All the corners aren't very big and the ramps I've put in so far aren't exactly huge. Its not like traffic probably wouldn't do 70 or 80 but I would bit a lot easier to build something like this if you didn't have to worry so much about speed restricting turning radius and the like.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I've been working on this for a while mostly just to teach my self sketchup. It's a mockup of a connector between the Georgia Viaduct and Hwy 1. This should be the first of 3 parts if I have the time to finish it. If anyone wants the model just let me know as is it sits at 14.4 MB. Let me know what ya think.

All renders are my own. Overview map done using google earth, edited by myself.

As Canadian Mind said, I think shoulders are vital for safety reasons. However, the idea, in my opinion is RIGHT ON!!

It takes that ridiculously narrow exit from the CN railyards, where all the trains have to pass through, and brilliantly expands it into two tracks, all the while putting two layers of roadway on top, eliminating the need for widening expansion - tearing out the ravine, tearing down houses, and so forth.

It's a slick piece of work, and with a few necessary improvements (like the shoulders) plus your slow speed limit to enhance safety, it's about the most brilliant and original concept for that right-of-way I have ever seen.

Go sell it to the city engineering department, before someone beats you to it!! Good stuff. The kind of thinking we need!!

[kylemacmac]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Well-planned transit is never wasted, and in my opinion, Zassk has a good idea which lends itself to potential expansion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Loop,_Melbourne ///// ckeck out the Melbourne City Loop at this address

No offense trofirhen, as you usually have cool ideas, and are bullish on new things, but the Melbourne City Loop is drastically different to the proposed loop in the West End. It's essentially a loop used by all the commuter railways, which are somewhat of a hybrid between Skytrain and the West Coast Express. The Melbourne City loop is directly connected to all the lines, and brings hundreds of thousands of people onto it a day, while the West End Circle line is essentially a disconnected loop, requiring transfers for anyone wanting to get to/from the West End. It's much more like the Detroit People mover, which has been labeled an absolute fail by everyone involved. Not that a people mover would fail in Vancouver, as the West End is much more populated than downtown Detroit, but the disconnected circular path is not the ideal way to attract rapid transit riders.

Please note, I think some form of rapid transit LINE to the West End is completely justified, but one that connects directly to the existing or future Skytrain network would probably be more successful than a standalone line/loop. A high-frequency streetcar/trolleybus loop is slightly different though, as it's essentially an at grade, frequent stop service.

Bring better transit to the West End!

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by kylemacmac

No offense trofirhen, as you usually have cool ideas, and are bullish on new things, but the Melbourne City Loop is drastically different to the proposed loop in the West End. It's essentially a loop used by all the commuter railways, which are somewhat of a hybrid between Skytrain and the West Coast Express. The Melbourne City loop is directly connected to all the lines, and brings hundreds of thousands of people onto it a day, while the West End Circle line is essentially a disconnected loop, requiring transfers for anyone wanting to get to/from the West End. It's much more like the Detroit People mover, which has been labeled an absolute fail by everyone involved. Not that a people mover would fail in Vancouver, as the West End is much more populated than downtown Detroit, but the disconnected circular path is not the ideal way to attract rapid transit riders.

Please note, I think some form of rapid transit LINE to the West End is completely justified, but one that connects directly to the existing or future Skytrain network would probably be more successful than a standalone line/loop. A high-frequency streetcar/trolleybus loop is slightly different though, as it's essentially an at grade, frequent stop service.

Bring better transit to the West End!

I've long been a proponent of extending Skytrain into the West End, but I think that a disconnected loop would be a bad idea. I think that we should create a spur from the Canada Line, branching off at Yaletown, and having stops at Burrard/Davie, English Bay, Stanley Park, (maybe one in Coal Harbour near the Community Centre), and a terminus at Waterfront.

Every third train--or some other configuration--could go through the West End to Waterfront, rather than through downtown to Waterfront.

[Zassk]

^ A Canada Line spur to the West End would be fantastic, but as you said, it would have to be a spur, since the existing configuration of Waterfront doesn't allow the Canada Line to just turn westward. And obviously Expo Line is situated ideally for an extension eastward, not westward.

As for the issue of it being a disconnected loop - having to transfer is not automatically a bad thing. Other cities' metro users don't seem deterred by the need to transfer. The circle line would allow transfers directly to both Expo and C-line, so I thought it would actually draw more residents of the peninsula into using the existing lines.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by mrjauk

I've long been a proponent of extending Skytrain into the West End, but I think that a disconnected loop would be a bad idea. I think that we should create a spur from the Canada Line, branching off at Yaletown, and having stops at Burrard/Davie, English Bay, Stanley Park, (maybe one in Coal Harbour near the Community Centre), and a terminus at Waterfront.

Every third train--or some other configuration--could go through the West End to Waterfront, rather than through downtown to Waterfront.

What I was thinking was slightly different (and I hope it is possible).

You extend the Canada Line from Waterfront Station.

You make it do a sharp turn to the West and bring it past the Convention Center extension (I think it was designed so a station there would be possible, expensive but possible). From there you can dig under Coal Harbour and have a station on the other side of the business district, bringing RAV riders to more offices. From there extend it through the West End with 1 or 2 stations, it would function like a cross downtown express more than like a downtown loop service.

After hitting the West End, tunnel under English Bay and bring it up into Kits. You could bring it up under Arbutus and have a station at Kits Beach, 4th, and then have a transfer station at Arbutus and Broadway where it will meet the UBC Extension.

You can't tell me that direct, rapid service between Kits, West End, Business District and Yaletown wouldn't be huge. Trains can travel through downtown without having to branch or spur, so all trains go everywhere. And you also offer a faster reverse service for people traveling between Downtown/the West End and UBC.

[Zassk]

^ The only thing that discourages your idea is that we would have to completely abandon the existing Waterfront Station for the Canada Line, because it points the wrong way. It might be an acceptable cost of extending the line to new riders, but you could fill the Waterfront Station pit under Granville & Cordova with the cash that was wasted.

[DKaz]

Part of Mary Hill Bypass don't have shoulders either, just saying.

[BCPhil]

I don't think you have to abandon the current station. The line just needs to duck under the current Expo line and make a 90 degree turn. I mean, the current configuration on the Expo line of Waterfront -> Burrard -> Granville doesn't make much sense, but it works well and was facilitated by the existing tunnel.

Everything there is up on pillars so you might need to reroute some roads or buy up some parking, but you probably wouldn't need more than a trench in most spots to get it past the Convention Center Expansion. And the Canada Line already makes some sharp curves and grades so adding some more shouldn't be much of an issue.

If it's done in conjunction with the CoV plans to extend Granville street and improve Waterfront Station, it probably wouldn't be much of an issue.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think that line would be much better as a rectangular streetcar, down hastings (or georgia), denman, up davie, or down beach, whatever. Great for tourists and locals.

I agree, but I would say for it to go down Robson rather than Georgia or Hastings. Seems like it would better suit tourists this way.

Actually, what would be interesting would be to have both Robson and Granville shut down to vehicular traffic, and have street cars running down both.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think that line would be much better as a rectangular streetcar, down hastings (or georgia), denman, up davie, or down beach, whatever. Great for tourists and locals.

Agreed. And because the stations are so close to each other, it really wouldn't be that much faster than a streetcar with part of its own ROW (or even its own lanes). There is a limited potential for more ridership, especially compared to the Canada Line, or Surrey's Expo Line extension, because they have a lot more room to grow than the West End. Bare in mind, I'm not saying there isn't room to grow. Frankly, money would be better well spent on improving areas outside of the downtown core, where transit isn't as nice. At least in downtown, everything is within walking distance with each other. Other modes of transport, including cycling and public transit, isn't as viable. The need for providing improvement within a city core isn't as urgent as improving other areas in the region.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I don't think you have to abandon the current station. The line just needs to duck under the current Expo line and make a 90 degree turn. I mean, the current configuration on the Expo line of Waterfront -> Burrard -> Granville doesn't make much sense, but it works well and was facilitated by the existing tunnel.

Everything there is up on pillars so you might need to reroute some roads or buy up some parking, but you probably wouldn't need more than a trench in most spots to get it past the Convention Center Expansion. And the Canada Line already makes some sharp curves and grades so adding some more shouldn't be much of an issue.

If it's done in conjunction with the CoV plans to extend Granville street and improve Waterfront Station, it probably wouldn't be much of an issue.

That's true, it might fit well underneath the extended Granville Street. However, Canada Line is at a higher elevation than Expo Line there, so I'm guessing the Canada Line would have to be elevated above the Expo Line (and below the roadway) as it curves to the west, and run above or beside Expo Line until west of the Dunsmuir Tunnel portal. I wonder if there is enough clearance.