SkyCity Centre Winnipeg | 45F | 575 Ft | 175.26 M | Cancelled

[Jammon]

I wanted to throw in my two cents on the great downtown debate. From my experience, most cities under 2 million do not have an overly thriving downtown. Many cities, including Winnipeg, struggle with urban sprawl. I agree with some of the posters that Minneapolis is hardly a model of perfection. I'm only speaking as a frequent traveler, but I have been in DT Minneapolis many, many times and I have found it to be a ghost town aside from the regular business hours. But, in all honesty, Kansas City, St. Louis, Edmonton, and Milwaukee are all examples of cities that are in the same boat as Winnipeg. While I appreciate that we all envision a day when Winnipeg will have a thriving DT, I think that as whole, the city has done a fair job of creating this vision at present. I'm not an engineer or architect, so I am speaking strictly as a forumer who has visited most major North American cities. Honestly, Winnipeg is doing ok IMHO.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Jammon

I wanted to throw in my two cents on the great downtown debate. From my experience, most cities under 2 million do not have an overly thriving downtown. Many cities, including Winnipeg, struggle with urban sprawl. I agree with some of the posters that Minneapolis is hardly a model of perfection. I'm only speaking as a frequent traveler, but I have been in DT Minneapolis many, many times and I have found it to be a ghost town aside from the regular business hours. But, in all honesty, Kansas City, St. Louis, Edmonton, and Milwaukee are all examples of cities that are in the same boat as Winnipeg. While I appreciate that we all envision a day when Winnipeg will have a thriving DT, I think that as whole, the city has done a fair job of creating this vision at present. I'm not an engineer or architect, so I am speaking strictly as a forumer who has visited most major North American cities. Honestly, Winnipeg is doing ok IMHO.

That's a good dose of reality. It seems that the biggest cities and smaller ones have thriving downtowns... it's those midsized ones from about 100,000 to 1,500,000 that tend to run into problems. And yes, when you compare apples to apples, Winnipeg holds up fairly well.

[Urban recluse]

It is easy to see Graham Avenue becoming a popular destination. I hope once SkyCity is built, more property owners will update their buildings. 240 Graham, in particular, could emulate the following redevelopment I stumbled across recently, which resembles 240 Graham:

[drew]

A couple years ago I was staying in Downtown Minni for a conference and thought that I could just walk around and do a bit of shopping later on in the afternoon.

I was surprised to find that there was basically nothing to shop for, and what was there closed up at 6pm. Except for the Target. But even the Target was a small and crappy one compared to what I am generally used to.

The downtown is nice and clean however. Just not much that is obvious to do. The most entertaining thing I saw was some battle rapping happening at a bus stop.

[CoryB]

The big question with 240 Graham is does Cargil own or lease? As their principal Manitoba office is there over several floors they would be the ones to have the influence over getting the exterior updated.

That said, it makes me sad to think Hydro passed on developing the gravel surface lot across the street to demo a block filled with active low rise buildings for the headquarters.

[Urban recluse]

I believe it is owned by Royal Canadian Properties.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

That said, it makes me sad to think Hydro passed on developing the gravel surface lot across the street to demo a block filled with active low rise buildings for the headquarters.

Argh. Don't remind us.

From a downtown development standpoint I'm not convinced that Hydro picked the right location for its tower... I think putting it by Portage and Main would have done more to help establish a critical mass at that corner. That block was populated by buildings that were mostly occupied and filled with various functions that had people coming and going all day.

I guess MH looks nice and flashy as you drive by on Portage and provides a bit of an image boost to a somewhat drab stretch that really hadn't changed since Portage Place was developed in the 80s, but I think we could have had better bang for the buck had it gone on the site you mentioned, or any number of empty lots around Portage and Main.

[Urban recluse]

What we could question is the likelihood that the buildings Manitoba Hydro replaced would be vacant and troublesome to lease. Out of all of the location options, I would argue they were ill in their choice; to replace a parking lot on Graham would have been the best choice in my opinion despite my concern over the possible dead zone that may exist along Portage had Manitoba Hydro not chosen that location. Who knows.

[Urban recluse]

In terms of Graham Ave, I think it would be charming to have an overhead arch at Graham and Main, a decorative piece to warm up the area. What infills and skyscrapers cannot do for us now, such additions could:

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

What we could question is the likelihood that the buildings Manitoba Hydro replaced would be vacant and troublesome to lease. Out of all of the location options, I would argue they were ill in their choice; to replace a parking lot on Graham would have been the best choice in my opinion despite my concern over the possible dead zone that may exist along Portage had Manitoba Hydro not chosen that location. Who knows.

But as CoryB pointed out, the buildings demolished to make way for Hydro were mostly occupied and they were the kinds of older buildings that were accessible to smaller businesses and therefore typically full with a revolving door where some would fizzle and others would move onward and upward.

The Portage Ave side was mostly occupied too with a discount department store, a bank, a used bookstore...

It's not like we lost some amazing Shangri-La of urbanity, but in a downtown with so many dead zones it's always preferable to see something new go on one of those instead of displacing a block with buildings on it.

[Urban recluse]

You are referring to that period in time, while the same may not be said for anytime after up until present day. Saan was on the verge of or had already closed. As we see, there are plenty of vacancies along Portage. No one could say the same fate did not await that stretch.

[esquire]

^ Given the age and size of those buildings though, the probability of finding new tenants was pretty reasonable. Seems that in downtown Winnipeg, the older, cheaper buildings can typically attract tenants. Meanwhile, the surface lot on Graham remains a surface lot.

[Urban recluse]

No one can say with absolute certainty what that block would resemble. What I can say is Marcello's is wonderful, as is Rudy's and I do not believe we would be presented with anything as desirable had the tower not been built there. The Portage Avenue elevation has presented us with a fresh, modern streetscape, and while I do think the surface lot on Graham would have been preferable, I am not going to yearn for what was on the site prior.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

In terms of Graham Ave, I think it would be charming to have an overhead arch at Graham and Main, a decorative piece to warm up the area. What infills and skyscrapers cannot do for us now, such additions could:

I don't think it's the arch that makes those pictures charming, it's the people. It's people that could do something that skyscrapers and infills couldn't.

That front corner of Graham and Main is the least pedestrian friendly of the entire stretch. Blank wall along CDI College and 200 Graham, completely underground mall along the other... I don't think adding an arch would do much.

But I do like the idea, just perhaps further down nearer Vaughan and all the store fronts.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

What I can say is Marcello's is wonderful,

Really? I ate in there once, it was gross. Do you prefer microwaved eggs?

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

I guess MH looks nice and flashy as you drive by on Portage and provides a bit of an image boost to a somewhat drab stretch that really hadn't changed since Portage Place was developed in the 80s, but I think we could have had better bang for the buck had it gone on the site you mentioned, or any number of empty lots around Portage and Main.

On my drive home last night I was actually thinking how terrible MHP looks at night. The only lights are the 5 columns on the sidewalk and the sign on the tower/roof that's hidden from nearby. Such a signature building should have some good lighting to make it stand out at night. Even the podium is dark and omnious. I also REALLY wish there was the MH logo (peace sign) on the solar chimney... it actually looks like it was made for a sign and they just forgot.

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

You are referring to that period in time, while the same may not be said for anytime after up until present day. Saan was on the verge of or had already closed. As we see, there are plenty of vacancies along Portage. No one could say the same fate did not await that stretch.

I'm pretty sure SAAN was where Dollarama is now. SAAN > Red Apple > Dollarama

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Really? I ate in there once, it was gross. Do you prefer microwaved eggs?

Hahaha. No, I have only had lunch items.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

What we could question is the likelihood that the buildings Manitoba Hydro replaced would be vacant and troublesome to lease. Out of all of the location options, I would argue they were ill in their choice; to replace a parking lot on Graham would have been the best choice in my opinion despite my concern over the possible dead zone that may exist along Portage had Manitoba Hydro not chosen that location. Who knows.

I recall there also being a proposal for the "One Portage and Main" surface lot in the Hydro final pool. Also the tower on the highly problematic HBC site would have been another much more preferable choice. Heck, even the pitch for the Portage Place tower pad would have been higher on my personal list.

As for leases of the buildings where Hydro went, we might have lost some of the tenants but others would have moved in. Rudy's and Marcello's would still have happened as part of Hydro. Having existing buildings could also have attracted other people to launch other restaurants when the Jets returns. Overall, I real feel choosing that block was a huge missed opportunity for the city we will not get back. We seem to be heading on a repeat of that course with the MLLC headquarters crash landing into the Medical Arts building.

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by steveosnyder

I don't think it's the arch that makes those pictures charming, it's the people. It's people that could do something that skyscrapers and infills couldn't.

That front corner of Graham and Main is the least pedestrian friendly of the entire stretch. Blank wall along CDI College and 200 Graham, completely underground mall along the other... I don't think adding an arch would do much.

But I do like the idea, just perhaps further down nearer Vaughan and all the store fronts.

Agreed. My supposition is based on the lack of such an environment, and no immediate change, such as the construction of a building atop the underground mall. It is atrocious that CDI College covered the windows along Graham. Basically, it would be affordable aesthetics, to me preferable over dead air.

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I recall there also being a proposal for the "One Portage and Main" surface lot in the Hydro final pool. Also the tower on the highly problematic HBC site would have been another much more preferable choice. Heck, even the pitch for the Portage Place tower pad would have been higher on my personal list.

As for leases of the buildings where Hydro went, we might have lost some of the tenants but others would have moved in. Rudy's and Marcello's would still have happened as part of Hydro. Having existing buildings could also have attracted other people to launch other restaurants when the Jets returns. Overall, I real feel choosing that block was a huge missed opportunity for the city we will not get back. We seem to be heading on a repeat of that course with the MLLC headquarters crash landing into the Medical Arts building.

I am not convinced. There are plenty of vacancies around the MTS Centre; its construction had nowhere near the impact the arena being constructed in downtown Edmonton already has despite it still being under construction, and will have in the foreseeable future. With the return of the Jets, the adjacent retail space in the Somerset Building is now becoming a Dollar Tree, so I would not champion their impact. Again, there are vacancies aplenty within a few blocks in either direction.