Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by SLCHenry

Ok I haven’t heard anything from The Soren Project, Main Street Twr, 600s Tower, or Regent Street twr in a really long time… Seeming like these projects are pretty much dead.

More likely just delayed due to economy.

[bob rulz]

The favorable conditions of the last few years have definitely ended. I imagine we'll still see some projects pull through, but there's a few that likely won't. I'm not optimistic about the Main St Tower or Sundial anymore.

The Regent Street Tower was always going to wait until Astra was finished.

[Blah_Amazing]

• Video Link

[TheGeographer]

Originally Posted by wrendog

More likely just delayed due to economy.

Could someone explain why skyscraper development in other cities is moving forward at a quicker pace than SLC. I’m thinking Austin and Denver as examples. I’m sure they’ve hit supply chain, economy, what ever it may be as well. But when I snoop on their skyscraper pages it always seems like more is going up and in the works. Salt Lake is population wise similar to Austin, so I feel like our downtown taller building development slowdown is partially due to economic issues, but also is being caused by other factors unknown to me. As far as I’m concerned we have two taller buildings currently being built, but I do not consider liberty sky and buildings like liberty of poor design to be dial movers. All the 5-10 story apartment buildings going up in SLC are great, they add to the infill but I’m speaking to the slow down of taller buildings, or buildings 10 stories or more that have high quality design (liberty or that state street building do not meet the eye test for me personally). The west quarters first phase would meet my eye test. So buildings like that design quality or taller buildings. Do we have supply chain issues in SLC because we have so many 5-10 story buildings that are being built? I know we have a ton of those going up throughout the valley. I also know taller buildings require additional resources (cranes, more concrete, specialized workers, etc.). So is the slowdown in SLC downtown of taller building development a combination of local and national things? Or are we just regressing back closer to our norm of a few 400 foot tall buildings built a decade. I know having two tall buildings going up at once in SLC is above our norm, so I’m excited about the two current tall buildings being built.

[Blah_Amazing]

Originally Posted by TheGeographer

Could someone explain why skyscraper development in other cities is moving forward at a quicker pace than SLC. I’m thinking Austin and Denver as examples. I’m sure they’ve hit supply chain, economy, what ever it may be as well. But when I snoop on their skyscraper pages it always seems like more is going up and in the works. Salt Lake is population wise similar to Austin, so I feel like our downtown taller building development slowdown is partially due to economic issues, but also is being caused by other factors unknown to me. As far as I’m concerned we have two taller buildings currently being built, but I do not consider liberty sky and buildings like liberty of poor design to be dial movers. All the 5-10 story apartment buildings going up in SLC are great, they add to the infill but I’m speaking to the slow down of taller buildings, or buildings 10 stories or more that have high quality design (liberty or that state street building do not meet the eye test for me personally). The west quarters first phase would meet my eye test. So buildings like that design quality or taller buildings. Do we have supply chain issues in SLC because we have so many 5-10 story buildings that are being built? I know we have a ton of those going up throughout the valley. I also know taller buildings require additional resources (cranes, more concrete, specialized workers, etc.). So is the slowdown in SLC downtown of taller building development a combination of local and national things? Or are we just regressing back closer to our norm of a few 400 foot tall buildings built a decade. I know having two tall buildings going up at once in SLC is above our norm, so I’m excited about the two current tall buildings being built.

I think its likely that a lot of projects in larger cities received funding before interest rates went up. You also need to consider profitability. Some cities that charge higher rents than in Salt Lake can better finance towers as they still have a better path to profitability. That said, if this high interest environment were to continue, larger cities will also likely see a slowdown as the projects funded prior complete and other projects that weren't stall. That's why I suspect Astra and Convexity are still moving, since they were likely financed before the rapid increases in rates. I do think we will see movement on at least a few tower projects, including the announcement of new ones, it's just going to be slower as developers wait to see if the economy stays stable and if they still pencil out at these rates.

There are over 100 lower density (5-10 floors projects) planned or under construction in Salt Lake right now that would naturally have a drag on tower construction, as they are overall cheaper and easier to build. We essentially have about 20+ towers worth of low density buildings planned or under construction in the city right now. Even with this, we were about to have a burst in tower construction, but interest rates have made that difficult for Salt Lake. I suspect as soon as rates goes down (which could very well be a long time from now) we will see a large burst of them. Until then, it will likely be slower than what we were seeing in the low interest environment.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by TheGeographer

Could someone explain why skyscraper development in other cities is moving forward at a quicker pace than SLC. I’m thinking Austin and Denver as examples. I’m sure they’ve hit supply chain, economy, what ever it may be as well. But when I snoop on their skyscraper pages it always seems like more is going up and in the works. Salt Lake is population wise similar to Austin, so I feel like our downtown taller building development slowdown is partially due to economic issues, but also is being caused by other factors unknown to me. As far as I’m concerned we have two taller buildings currently being built, but I do not consider liberty sky and buildings like liberty of poor design to be dial movers. All the 5-10 story apartment buildings going up in SLC are great, they add to the infill but I’m speaking to the slow down of taller buildings, or buildings 10 stories or more that have high quality design (liberty or that state street building do not meet the eye test for me personally). The west quarters first phase would meet my eye test. So buildings like that design quality or taller buildings. Do we have supply chain issues in SLC because we have so many 5-10 story buildings that are being built? I know we have a ton of those going up throughout the valley. I also know taller buildings require additional resources (cranes, more concrete, specialized workers, etc.). So is the slowdown in SLC downtown of taller building development a combination of local and national things? Or are we just regressing back closer to our norm of a few 400 foot tall buildings built a decade. I know having two tall buildings going up at once in SLC is above our norm, so I’m excited about the two current tall buildings being built.

How is it a regression? When did SLC progress beyond building more than a few tall buildings over a decade? We just saw a photo posted yesterday which shows an 10-year difference and I believe there we're 4 new high-rises over that time. I'd say it's staying about where it's always been.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by coxim

One potential factor impacting the slowdown could be the supply chain. SLC has numerous 5-10 story buildings being constructed, which could be placing strain on the availability of resources needed for taller buildings, such as cranes, concrete, and specialized workers. It's possible that this concentration on smaller-scale projects is diverting resources away from taller building development.

Most cities with substantial tall building growth have a ton of smaller buildings going up too, Austin and where I live in Phoenix is no exception to a plethora of smaller project activity. Since crane count statistics are notoriously difficult to find, this is the only one I know of. You can see powerhouses like Toronto have 100's of cranes. Yet New York City only has 10, at least as this survey includes.

https://www.bdcnetwork.com/construct...e-high-q1-2023

[Comrade]

Salt Lake City has always been dwarfed by cities of relative size. But it also goes back to what we've discussed previously: is SLC a peer of Portland and Austin - or Buffalo, Memphis and Richmond?

If it's the latter, then we're likely feeling the crunch of being a small-ish city.

But I agree with loco that we're not seeing much difference in overall high-rise growth from what the city has experienced the last 50 or so years.

Here's a breakdown by decade of high-rises (300+ feet) built in SLC since the 1970s:

1970s: 2 (LDS Office Building, Beneficial Life)
1980s: 3 (American Towers N/S, Eagle Gate)
1990s: 3 (One Utah Center, American Stores Tower, Gateway Tower West)
2000s: 2 (Grand America, 222 South)
2010s: 2 (99 West, 111 South Main)
2020s: 4 (95 State, Hyatt Regency, Astra, Worthington)

So, we're actually exceeding the 2000s and 2010s but it's not significantly.

With that said, Salt Lake has grown a lot since the 1990s ended and we're barely exceeding what we were seeing in the city back then, so, I do agree that construction has not kept up with growth.

Of course, if you believe SLC is more a peer with Portland or Austin, we're probably out-pacing Portland right now but certainly didn't in the 2010s. Currently, Portland has only one 300+ foot tower under construction (Block 216, which is 460 feet).

I'd wager the 2000s is what set SLC back. The city hasn't kept up with the growth of the state/area up until recently That gap is huge. Case in point: again, Portland. I mentioned how they outpaced SLC considerably in the 2000s and 2010s. Whereas SLC only saw 4 300+ foot towers constructed, Portland saw seven, including one 500 footer.

But again, if we're more aligned with cities like Memphis or Tucson, Salt Lake is certainly out-pacing those areas.

[wrendog]

That drone video was great! As someone who lives out of state, it's great to see videos like that. SLC looks soo much different than it did when I left 9 years ago.

I am currently in a city that is similar in CSA size to SLC (San Antonio) and SLC downtown doesn't seem that much smaller. San Antonio is growing like crazy too, but SLC seems to have had more of a building boom. Now up the road in Austin? Crazy different.

[scottharding]

Originally Posted by locolife

Most cities with substantial tall building growth have a ton of smaller buildings going up too, Austin and where I live in Phoenix is no exception to a plethora of smaller project activity. Since crane count statistics are notoriously difficult to find, this is the only one I know of. You can see powerhouses like Toronto have 100's of cranes. Yet New York City only has 10, at least as this survey includes.

https://www.bdcnetwork.com/construct...e-high-q1-2023

Comparing SLC to Toronto, or any Canadian city for that matter, is simply not fair. Canada is far more favorable toward urban growth than any American state. The housing crisis in the U.S. is largely the result of bad policy. Zoning and bureaucracy really make it tough here. Some states/cities are better than others.
For example, Toronto does not have parking minimums. Imagine how much easier it is for a building to pencil out financially if a third of the building isn't dedicated to square footage that does not pay rent.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by Comrade

1970s: 2 (LDS Office Building, Beneficial Life)
1980s: 3 (American Towers N/S, Eagle Gate)
1990s: 3 (One Utah Center, American Stores Tower, Gateway Tower West)
2000s: 2 (Grand America, 222 South)
2010s: 2 (99 West, 111 South Main)
2020s: 4 (95 State, Hyatt Regency, Astra, Worthington)

So, we're actually exceeding the 2000s and 2010s but it's not significantly.

Well, I mean, to be fair, it's only 2023.

There is a chance that some of the already proposed towers and maybe some newly proposed towers get built this decade

[RC14]

That's what I was thinking. It's still very early in the decade. We already have 4 under our belt and several still proposed or rumored. It all depends on what the economy does.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Salt Lake City has always been dwarfed by cities of relative size. But it also goes back to what we've discussed previously: is SLC a peer of Portland and Austin - or Buffalo, Memphis and Richmond?

If it's the latter, then we're likely feeling the crunch of being a small-ish city.

But I agree with loco that we're not seeing much difference in overall high-rise growth from what the city has experienced the last 50 or so years.

Here's a breakdown by decade of high-rises (300+ feet) built in SLC since the 1970s:

1970s: 2 (LDS Office Building, Beneficial Life)
1980s: 3 (American Towers N/S, Eagle Gate)
1990s: 3 (One Utah Center, American Stores Tower, Gateway Tower West)
2000s: 2 (Grand America, 222 South)
2010s: 2 (99 West, 111 South Main)
2020s: 4 (95 State, Hyatt Regency, Astra, Worthington)

So, we're actually exceeding the 2000s and 2010s but it's not significantly.

With that said, Salt Lake has grown a lot since the 1990s ended and we're barely exceeding what we were seeing in the city back then, so, I do agree that construction has not kept up with growth.

Of course, if you believe SLC is more a peer with Portland or Austin, we're probably out-pacing Portland right now but certainly didn't in the 2010s. Currently, Portland has only one 300+ foot tower under construction (Block 216, which is 460 feet).

I'd wager the 2000s is what set SLC back. The city hasn't kept up with the growth of the state/area up until recently That gap is huge. Case in point: again, Portland. I mentioned how they outpaced SLC considerably in the 2000s and 2010s. Whereas SLC only saw 4 300+ foot towers constructed, Portland saw seven, including one 500 footer.

But again, if we're more aligned with cities like Memphis or Tucson, Salt Lake is certainly out-pacing those areas.

I just counted how many highrises Portland has over 300 feet versus how many highrises Salt Lake City has over 300 feet, and believe it or not, both cities have 16. However, Portland has about 3 or 4 highrises that are over 500 feet, and 3 times as many 200' to 299' foot towers.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by scottharding

Comparing SLC to Toronto, or any Canadian city for that matter, is simply not fair. Canada is far more favorable toward urban growth than any American state. The housing crisis in the U.S. is largely the result of bad policy. Zoning and bureaucracy really make it tough here. Some states/cities are better than others.
For example, Toronto does not have parking minimums. Imagine how much easier it is for a building to pencil out financially if a third of the building isn't dedicated to square footage that does not pay rent.

It wasn’t a city comparison, just a data point relative resources potentially being limited by the current development volume in SLC. If any city can support over 200 cranes the dozen or so around SLC is not likely a limiting issue.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Orlando

I just counted how many highrises Portland has over 300 feet versus how many highrises Salt Lake City has over 300 feet, and believe it or not, both cities have 16. However, Portland has about 3 or 4 highrises that are over 500 feet, and 3 times as many 200+ foot towers.

I know Wiki isn’t great for staying updated on counts like this but how many total does SLC have under construction or built at 200+? Wiki says 29+2 under construction (Astra and Worthington).

[TheGeographer]

Originally Posted by locolife

How is it a regression? When did SLC progress beyond building more than a few tall buildings over a decade? We just saw a photo posted yesterday which shows an 10-year difference and I believe there we're 4 new high-rises over that time. I'd say it's staying about where it's always been.

I suppose we’re not regressing back to the mean, you’re right we are about we’re we’ve always been, if not better when looking at Comrades info on tower construction by decade. I was generally wondering why taller towers are so slow to get started. Thinking Main Street tower and a few others that were proposed but have yet to break ground. Blahs explanation about securing lower interest rate loans prior t interest rate hikes and larger cities charging even higher rents (yikes!) makes sense.

[TheGeographer]

Originally Posted by wrendog

Well, I mean, to be fair, it's only 2023.

There is a chance that some of the already proposed towers and maybe some newly proposed towers get built this decade

True that, 2020’s are starting off great. As usual Im just impatient and want more. Have to be happy about all the development that is going on. Thanks Comrade for throwing this info together for us to provide some good perspective

[Blah_Amazing]

I haven't done this is a while so I thought I'd post the major commercial building permits filed this month.

30 West
https://citizenportal.slcgov.com/Cit...howInspection=
30 W 900 S
7 story (5 type IIIA over 2 type IA), mixed use building with commercial and parking at ground floor, parking at second floor, and 5 stories of residential units above podium

Station 424 Apartments
https://citizenportal.slcgov.com/Cit...howInspection=
424 S 700 E
258 Unit Multifamily Project. (5) Stories of wood, type III construction over (2) stories type I podium construction.

Pickle & Hide (demo)
https://citizenportal.slcgov.com/Cit...howInspection=
741 S 400 W
Demolition of 3 masonry walls at boiler enclosure attached to rear of existing structure to allow for asbestos abatement.

10th & Elm Apartments
https://citizenportal.slcgov.com/Cit...howInspection=
2131 S LINCOLN
5 stories type 3B construction over 1 story type 1A construction with 2 parking levels subterranean.

West Temple Micro Apartments
https://citizenportal.slcgov.com/Cit...howInspection=
820 S WEST TEMPLE
This permit is for a 4 story, 34 unit apartment project to be located at 820 S West Temple. The building will be constructed out of wood and will be type V construction.

Silo Park Apartments, Miller Building
https://citizenportal.slcgov.com/Cit...howInspection=
470 W 600 S
Existing Commercial Building, Type VB, to be remodeled with a reduced footprint to 39,700 SF.

Silo Park Apartments, Building 1
https://citizenportal.slcgov.com/Cit...howInspection=
522 S 400 W
65 Multifamily Units, 5 Levels Type IIIA over 1 Level Type IA

Silo Park Apartments, Building 3
https://citizenportal.slcgov.com/Cit...howInspection=
568 S 400 W
221 Unit, Multifamily project. 5 Levels Type IIIA over 1 Level of Type IA

1345 Jefferson St
https://citizenportal.slcgov.com/Cit...howInspection=
1345 S JEFFERSON
New Construction Mixed Use Multi-Family Residential 5 story type IIIA construction over 2 story type IA podium with limited retail amenity and parking on lower levels.

West Village
https://citizenportal.slcgov.com/Cit...howInspection=
936 S 400 W
The project consist on 5 levels of residential type III construction containing 229 units over 3 levels of residential parking & retail type i construction. The project provides amenities, commercial retail and a leasing office. Level 4 houses a roof deck and amenity space. Level 8, houses an amenity spaces adjacent to a open roof terrace. The project provides studio, 1-bedroom, 2- bedroom and two level townhome with 2-bedrooms.

Salt Lake City Main Library Roof Renovation
https://citizenportal.slcgov.com/Cit...howInspection=
210 E 400 S
Repair and remodel of the 22,000 SF occupiable green roof on top of the SLC Main Library at 210 E 400 S in Salt Lake City, UT

[Atlas]

Thanks Blah. Silos, West Village, and the Pickle & Hide project are the standouts. There was actually an article in the WSJ a couple days ago showing off the Pickle & Hide project. (paywalled, summary here) All of this just underscores that the 400 W TRAX extension needs to happen asap.



Also looking forward to seeing the renovated library rooftop!

[locolife]

Originally Posted by TheGeographer

I suppose we’re not regressing back to the mean, you’re right we are about we’re we’ve always been, if not better when looking at Comrades info on tower construction by decade. I was generally wondering why taller towers are so slow to get started. Thinking Main Street tower and a few others that were proposed but have yet to break ground. Blahs explanation about securing lower interest rate loans prior t interest rate hikes and larger cities charging even higher rents (yikes!) makes sense.

I'm not sure but it feels similar in Phoenix, I've lived here for a long time now and grew up in Salt Lake so I follow urban development in both cities. It's usually about a year between my visits to SLC so I always tour downtown to see what's new.

Right now Phoenix has about 11 buildings over 200' with cranes up but 14 more that are stuck in some kind of earlier development phase. That backlog of "approved, proposed, or under review" always seems to take forever, we've been waiting on one here that is also called Astra for at least 2-years now. It would be the new tallest so it's being watched very closely by us enthusiasts.

I don't work in the development world so I can't say why some cities seem to boom on high-rise development while others it seems to struggle. But I will say that having tall buildings isn't everything, I go to Austin quite a bit for work and can say it's cool to have tons of shiny new buildings but all the rapid growth has had it's fair share of negatives too. Some of what made Austin weird has been lost and the city certainly feels a bit more generic now.

So take the bad with the good and vice versa. Maybe SLC and PHX will get their boom days with dozens of 500+ towers some day but it doesn't seem like that's coming soon.