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  #9121  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2018, 4:42 PM
MG922 MG922 is offline
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Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
You guys should see the study done by Dillon in the early 2000's. It was pretty sweet and is no way similar to the plan now. It was the complete opposite. Dedicated roadway and corridor with numerous bridges and it was awesome.
Is that study for Eastern or for SW? Is it publicly available anywhere?
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  #9122  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2018, 6:06 PM
bomberjet bomberjet is offline
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All the median lanes and that are great local improvements. But do not constitute an RT network of any kind. I guess that's where I'm disappointed.
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  #9123  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2018, 6:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MG922 View Post
Is that study for Eastern or for SW? Is it publicly available anywhere?
Eastern route. And no it's not publically available. I may be able to scratch some things in Google earth if I get some time. It's along the same lines as what the current study was looking at. North St. Boniface route or a Point Douglas route. It included a lot of new roadways and a new Louise Bridge location.
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  #9124  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2018, 6:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
All the median lanes and that are great local improvements. But do not constitute an RT network of any kind. I guess that's where I'm disappointed.
Agreed. That stuff should be a standard component of major transit routes in Winnipeg. However, that is not rapid transit.

If that's all that EBRT is going to be, a glorified diamond lane, then honestly... the City might as well consider redirecting the money to other improvements.
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  #9125  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2018, 9:13 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Agreed. That stuff should be a standard component of major transit routes in Winnipeg. However, that is not rapid transit.

If that's all that EBRT is going to be, a glorified diamond lane, then honestly... the City might as well consider redirecting the money to other improvements.
Or take a phased approach. Now that we have theTMC, we could easily put in diamond lanes and implement optimized/automated transit priority signals that let busses through on arrival. Would cost very little in terms of infrastructure.
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  #9126  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2018, 9:19 PM
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The point being, it's not rapid transit. Just transit. Which is fine. Just don't dress it up as rapid transit when they're doing 50 or 60 kmh.

They'll have a dedicated roadway or diamond lane so shouldn't be held up in traffic.

Take the Nairn Ave route as an example. They propose median bus lanes. Why not widen the road to 6 lanes and have the 2 curb lanes as diamond lanes. Just like they had/have on Regent east of Lag. It would be 6 lanes, with 2 curb diamond lanes, from at least Watt/Archibald to Plessis. I don't see a need for fancy stations in the median for that sort of thing.
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  #9127  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2018, 9:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
The point being, it's not rapid transit. Just transit. Which is fine. Just don't dress it up as rapid transit when they're doing 50 or 60 kmh.

They'll have a dedicated roadway or diamond lane so shouldn't be held up in traffic.

Take the Nairn Ave route as an example. They propose median bus lanes. Why not widen the road to 6 lanes and have the 2 curb lanes as diamond lanes. Just like they had/have on Regent east of Lag. It would be 6 lanes, with 2 curb diamond lanes, from at least Watt/Archibald to Plessis. I don't see a need for fancy stations in the median for that sort of thing.
That could be why WT seems to be phasing out the RT branding already. They've removed it from a lot of the on-street stops that used to have it, nothing on busses anymore, and the IGF station and transitway doesn't have a single RT logo to be seen. Just the standard flying T.

I think that's a good call – just makes it more confusing for people who don't frequently use transit to make it seem like a different system. Most cities (if not almost all) that have multi-modal transit systems all use one "brand" (TTC, Metro Transit, etc.). You differentiate mode the numbering/naming system.

Here, all "RT" routes are in the 100s. Some routes use the transitway, but if not for the whole thing, it's not a 100 bus – makes sense. Eventually when we have 2+ RT legs and/or rail, we'll likely switch to or add in coloured lines (ex: green line).
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  #9128  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 8:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Agreed. That stuff should be a standard component of major transit routes in Winnipeg. However, that is not rapid transit.

If that's all that EBRT is going to be, a glorified diamond lane, then honestly... the City might as well consider redirecting the money to other improvements.
All BRT money would have been better spent hiring more drivers and buying more buses, this whole BRT fiasco is a select few on city council selling Winnipeg citizens a bill of goods. $600 M to save 3 minutes from downtown to the U of M, whippty doo!
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  #9129  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 8:20 PM
windypeg windypeg is offline
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
All BRT money would have been better spent hiring more drivers and buying more buses, this whole BRT fiasco is a select few on city council selling Winnipeg citizens a bill of goods. $600 M to save 3 minutes from downtown to the U of M, whippty doo!
What would that accomplish? More drivers and more buses, stuck in gridlock just like they are now. Same travel times. Zero improvement to service, therefore zero change in ridership. Also, you keep saying it only saves 3 mins as if that claim hasn't already been thoroughly discredited here...
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  #9130  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 8:29 PM
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I'm going to attend the open house again tonight as it's only a 5 minute drive from home and better articulate my message to the hosts. I'll talk to someone different than I did last time based on what I've heard here.

Lots of good local improvements, but not a connected City wide transit system.

On the RT thing. The poster board entering the open house last time had a nice, big, colourful RT logo. So I'm not sure they're intending to phase it out. That will be a question of mine tonight.
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  #9131  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 12:48 AM
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https://media.winnipegfreepress.com/...NEP4368623.jpg
This week, construction crews discovered parts of that piece of Winnipeg's past when they found rusted streetcar rails while doing road work on Notre Dame Avenue, between Portage Avenue and Princess Street.
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  #9132  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 1:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
I'm going to attend the open house again tonight as it's only a 5 minute drive from home and better articulate my message to the hosts. I'll talk to someone different than I did last time based on what I've heard here.

Lots of good local improvements, but not a connected City wide transit system.

On the RT thing. The poster board entering the open house last time had a nice, big, colourful RT logo. So I'm not sure they're intending to phase it out. That will be a question of mine tonight.
How did the Open House go?
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  #9133  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 3:39 PM
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Shitty. lol Well it was good, they listened. But nothing in there is rapid. The guy from the City even said he doesn't like calling it BRT. It's just frequent transit service.

Diamond lanes with maybe a stretch of dedicated roadway if they go with the Thomas Ave route instead of Nairn. And the Union Station part.

I kept hearing a lot of things like they bridge would be too expensive, or CN is the problem. Or the Pointe Hebert neighbourhood didn't become a high rise city so there's no point in putting the transitway there anyways.

Overall I'm quite disappointed and we'll never have any sort of dedicated corridor for this. They'll figure out the other part of the study, such as louis bridge and the stadacona extension once they figure out where the buses will go.

There was a person attending from the Point Douglas community group. They want to keep PD 'rural'. Is what they said. And they don't want to create even more divides in PD and they will fight haha. I'll bet it goes down Provencher and hopefully through the backway down in the Foster area. Then I don't really care if it goes down Nairn or Thomas, whatever.
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  #9134  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 3:44 PM
dmacc dmacc is offline
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Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
Shitty. lol Well it was good, they listened. But nothing in there is rapid. The guy from the City even said he doesn't like calling it BRT. It's just frequent transit service.

Diamond lanes with maybe a stretch of dedicated roadway if they go with the Thomas Ave route instead of Nairn. And the Union Station part.

I kept hearing a lot of things like they bridge would be too expensive, or CN is the problem. Or the Pointe Hebert neighbourhood didn't become a high rise city so there's no point in putting the transitway there anyways.

Overall I'm quite disappointed and we'll never have any sort of dedicated corridor for this. They'll figure out the other part of the study, such as louis bridge and the stadacona extension once they figure out where the buses will go.

There was a person attending from the Pointe Douglas community group. They want to keep PD 'rural'. Is what they said. And they don't want to create even more divides in PD and they will fight haha. I'll bet it goes down Provencher and hopefully through the backway down in the Foster area. Then I don't really care if it goes down Nairn or Thomas, whatever.
If they can't do this section properly in one go how about they plan it properly but do it in sections? Do the Union Station portion, then the Thomas route. Leave the rest diamond lanes with no additional infrastructure until they can properly budget for it?

I thought they were getting an additional $530 million just for transit from the feds?
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  #9135  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 3:50 PM
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^ At this point they might as well go back to the term 'quality corridor'... calling it rapid transit is a bit of a joke if that's all they're planning on doing. What a letdown.
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  #9136  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 5:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
Shitty. lol Well it was good, they listened. But nothing in there is rapid. The guy from the City even said he doesn't like calling it BRT. It's just frequent transit service.

Diamond lanes with maybe a stretch of dedicated roadway if they go with the Thomas Ave route instead of Nairn. And the Union Station part.

I kept hearing a lot of things like they bridge would be too expensive, or CN is the problem. Or the Pointe Hebert neighbourhood didn't become a high rise city so there's no point in putting the transitway there anyways.

Overall I'm quite disappointed and we'll never have any sort of dedicated corridor for this. They'll figure out the other part of the study, such as louis bridge and the stadacona extension once they figure out where the buses will go.

There was a person attending from the Point Douglas community group. They want to keep PD 'rural'. Is what they said. And they don't want to create even more divides in PD and they will fight haha. I'll bet it goes down Provencher and hopefully through the backway down in the Foster area. Then I don't really care if it goes down Nairn or Thomas, whatever.
Fuck, even third world countries get BRT right.

Oh, thanks for going by the way.
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  #9137  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 5:56 PM
buzzg buzzg is offline
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Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
I'm going to attend the open house again tonight as it's only a 5 minute drive from home and better articulate my message to the hosts. I'll talk to someone different than I did last time based on what I've heard here.

Lots of good local improvements, but not a connected City wide transit system.

On the RT thing. The poster board entering the open house last time had a nice, big, colourful RT logo. So I'm not sure they're intending to phase it out. That will be a question of mine tonight.
To be fair it's WSP that makes the boards, so they might not have any idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WpG_GuY View Post
https://media.winnipegfreepress.com/...NEP4368623.jpg
This week, construction crews discovered parts of that piece of Winnipeg's past when they found rusted streetcar rails while doing road work on Notre Dame Avenue, between Portage Avenue and Princess Street.
Same thing happened when they redid Sherbrook a couple years ago. Crazy that they used to just dump concrete over everything lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
Shitty. lol Well it was good, they listened. But nothing in there is rapid. The guy from the City even said he doesn't like calling it BRT. It's just frequent transit service.

Diamond lanes with maybe a stretch of dedicated roadway if they go with the Thomas Ave route instead of Nairn. And the Union Station part.

I kept hearing a lot of things like they bridge would be too expensive, or CN is the problem. Or the Pointe Hebert neighbourhood didn't become a high rise city so there's no point in putting the transitway there anyways.

Overall I'm quite disappointed and we'll never have any sort of dedicated corridor for this. They'll figure out the other part of the study, such as louis bridge and the stadacona extension once they figure out where the buses will go.

There was a person attending from the Point Douglas community group. They want to keep PD 'rural'. Is what they said. And they don't want to create even more divides in PD and they will fight haha. I'll bet it goes down Provencher and hopefully through the backway down in the Foster area. Then I don't really care if it goes down Nairn or Thomas, whatever.
Lol how on earth can you call a downtown area rural? It's not rural – it's impoverished and underdeveloped.
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  #9138  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 8:58 PM
michelleb michelleb is offline
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Lol how on earth can you call a downtown area rural? It's not rural – it's impoverished and underdeveloped.
A not inaccurate description of many rural areas. Those community association members are doing Point Douglas no favors.
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  #9139  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 11:58 PM
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GarryEllice GarryEllice is offline
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Same thing happened when they redid Sherbrook a couple years ago. Crazy that they used to just dump concrete over everything lol.
It seems that they did take out all the straight track long ago, but the intersection track was left in place. Presumably because it's more complicated, time-consuming, and disruptive to take it out compared to ordinary straight track. Sure is amazing to see how much was buried under there (I've had a front-row view from my window).
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  #9140  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2018, 9:07 PM
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Opinion
Time to think different about transit
Brent Bellamy By: Brent Bellamy
Posted: 06/25/2018 4:00 AM

The City of Winnipeg is currently seeking public input on the proposed alignment for its next Bus Rapid Transit line. The eastern corridor will connect Plessis Road in Transcona with Harkness Station on Stradbrook Avenue, where the existing Southwest Transitway currently terminates. Two routes are being presented, one running through Point Douglas and one through St. Boniface.

The plans begin by proposing an exciting option to locate the transitway on the elevated rail line between The Forks and Main Street, using Union Station as a magnificent transit stop. This creates the potential for the historic structure to become a multi-modal transportation centre for downtown, operating as a central hub for such things as cycling and transit, water-bus, taxi, airport shuttles, and tourist trolleys.

The spectacular central hall of Union Station once again bustling with activity represents an opportunity to stimulate growth around south Main Street, by bringing pedestrian traffic to the sidewalks and drawing the vibrancy of The Forks and its future railside community into the rest of downtown.

Beyond Union Station, the two proposals diverge. The Point Douglas option either continues up Main Street or passes through the Exchange District to Higgins Avenue, before crossing the river on a new bridge. The St. Boniface alignment crosses the river on the existing Provencher Bridge and then runs down Provencher Boulevard to Archibald Street and Nairn Avenue.

A key justification of BRT investment across North America has been its ability to influence the patterns of development in cities, through Transit Oriented Development (TOD). As ridership increases, commercial and residential growth is attracted to the pedestrian density generated at major nodes along the system. Urban planners can use this to target growth by strategically placing transit lines and stations.

Instinctively the Higgins Avenue option would seem to be the more logical choice because it runs through an area that might benefit more from the TOD economic catalyst. It has been found, however, that TOD is not a silver bullet solution in urban areas, and wouldn’t typically have the power to transform an industrial road like Higgins into a neighbourhood high street, particularly in a slow-growth city like Winnipeg.

Increased connectivity can be an economic catalyst, but it is most effective at generating next level of growth in neighbourhoods that are already places where people are. The traditional build-it-and-they-will-come strategy for TOD has been found to be less effective than placing transit where development is already happening, where people already are, and connecting it to other places with similar conditions.

Transit is only successful if it is frequent and accessible to a large population, and will only be a catalyst for growth if it has ridership levels sufficiently high to inspire the activity that is attractive to development. Relying on new projects to create the market for transit is rarely as successful as connecting to an existing population and using transit to intensify its density.

Understanding the true capacity of transit as a development tool, the St. Boniface alignment for the eastern corridor becomes an attractive option. Provencher Boulevard doesn’t need to be transformed; it only needs an injection of incremental growth to be prosperous. It has the physical characteristics of a neighbourhood high street but currently functions as a six-lane commuter road, serving the outer suburbs and the adjacent industrial park.

The single-family neighbourhoods surrounding it are not dense enough to support many neighbourhood services, shops, or restaurants, resulting in the strip that has the potential to be a primary business street being predominantly destination services or underdeveloped properties.

Councillor Matt Allard is championing a vision for Provencher Boulevard and St. Boniface that could use investment into a transit corridor to fulfil many long-standing community goals. He envisions Provencher as a multi-modal, complete street, designed to enable safe access for all users, including pedestrians, cyclists, motorists and transit riders of all ages and abilities.

He is proposing to transform one vehicle lane in each direction into a transit priority lane for electric buses. The plan would also slow vehicle traffic and eliminate truck traffic while developing protected bike lanes, enhanced sidewalks and centre boulevards.

This newly defined corridor could become the catalyst for appropriately scaled infill development that creates enough residential density and sidewalk activity to attract the businesses, restaurants and sidewalk cafes that have long been envisioned as amenities for the neighbourhood but have not quite had the conditions to support it.

The second largest francophone community in Winnipeg is Osborne Village, because it offers the vibrancy, connectivity and affordability that young people are seeking, but is not available in St. Boniface. With increased mobility options and a direct rapid transit line between L’Université de Saint-Boniface and the University of Manitoba, young people would not have to leave their neighbourhood to find more convenient access to education and employment.

New transit-inspired infill development along Provencher could provide the affordable housing options that are able to keep francophone youth, immigrants, and seniors in the community. Significant new investment to transform Provencher Boulevard into a transit corridor could restore its place as a bustling commercial street that is the vibrant centre of a rejuvenated and stronger francophone community.

The eastern corridor is an opportunity to think differently about rapid transit and Transit Oriented Development in Winnipeg. Instead of looking to bypass existing communities, the last few kilometres could be treated more like a streetcar system that is fully integrated into its neighbourhoods. With strategically located stops along the main streets of St. Boniface and even extending into the old town centre of Transcona, there is an important opportunity to become a model for future lines, using transit to inspire incremental, infill growth that helps to densify and reinvigorate Winnipeg’s mature neighbourhoods.

Brent Bellamy is a senior design architect for Number Ten Architectural Group.
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/op...486417301.html
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