Gondola service pondered for N.W. Calgary

[Big Sky]

Interesting. Just curious where you got these numbers from? I'm not arguing against them, just curious. It sounds like you've had experience with these things.

Originally Posted by Cage

Hey folks,

Just want to point out that min crew per Gondolla station is 3, not 1. Additionally there would have to be an additional 2-3 people per line to handle shift breaks. This assumes all stations are loading and unloading passengers.

So for 5 station Gondolla line, 18-20 people are required at all times just to handle the basic operations and people movement. This does not include specialized ticket checkers and line up monitors. Nor does this include Maintenance personnel.

So lets say we are looking at 5 station line with 12 hour operating time. With these assumptions expect a minimum complement of 120-140 individuals.

[suburb]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

I'm sure the union would have something to say about that...

It already costs less for a driver of a smaller bus relative to the regular buses. A person holding a gondola steady is different from the driver of a 60 passenger bus. That is a reality.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by suburb

You need to compare apples to apples. A single bus that runs from 5am till 2am requires more than one personal also. During regular operations, you'd likely require one or two attendants at each stop. You don't need new specialized ticket checkers IMHO. Additionally, the attendants would likely be 50%-70% the cost of a regular bus driver.

I do not believe this line will have five stations. I believe it will be one at each end, plus one at FMC and one at ACH. Additionally, I don't actually see why it would need to be a loop at all. I think a single bi-directional line (such as at ski hills) from one of the LRT stations to the two principal destinations would be sufficient.

For a three station line (two destination stops plus one LRT stop) I'd say you'd need in total six people max for regular operations, perhaps less. Those six people would cost the same as four regular drivers.

Regarding size of gondola / tram, I'd suggest a true gondola size, though a small tram would be alright if there were savings to be had. A smallish size (say 8 passenger) would allow for a shorter interval between rides and easier management at the stations (perhaps making it easier for fewer staff).

That seems pretty optimistic on staffing requirements and different than what is being proposed. Even if the scope of the project was reduced to what you're proposing, eliminating the University entirely, staffing requirements would be greater than you think. There is no way we can run a service seven days a week ~20 hours a day with such minimal staffing. It would likely require four employees total for every employee working at a given time. I would imagine at any given time there would need to be an attendant at every station and an operator overlooking the entire line. even with three stations, that would be at least sixteen new employees. I sincerely doubt that Calgary Transit could get away with paying them half the wages of a bus driver. These won't be young Australians willing to trade lousy pay for a few months of free rent and skiing.

The major issue that I can see with the proposal is the incredibly narrow band of success vis a vis ridership. Cost and capacity would be relatively stable forever. No matter what the ridership was, staffing needs would be the same for a set time of operation. The areas services, ie hospitals, are essentially 24 hours a day, seven day a week activity nodes. Peak service would be pointless since there would be no peak. I would imagine that low ridership would render the entire project an expensive waste while high ridership would strain the entire thing. If we could be somewhat assured that ridership would sit inside of the band of success for a relatively long period, say upwards of 20 years, then it might make sense as a stop gap measure until capital funding could be found for something better. If not, then it is rather pointless. Either way we would need a study to determine the answer.

[fusili]

The best (and perhaps only) place I could see an urban gondola work in Calgary is between Westbrook Mall and Foothills Hospital. That is a 2.5 km hike over terrain that buses or rail would have a terrible time crossing and would only need two stations.

[Riise]

It's interesting that both my hometown and new home are both seriously considering adding gondolas to their public transport system. Unfortunately, I'm not a supporter of either implementation. My preliminary conclusion is that a tram would be a better option. Trams have proven themselves as excellent intra-neighbourhood rapid transit systems that can complement an inter-neighbourhood system. In addition, they provide more opportunities for development and redevelopment to occur along the transit line.

[sim]

Originally Posted by fusili

The best (and perhaps only) place I could see an urban gondola work in Calgary is between Westbrook Mall and Foothills Hospital. That is a 2.5 km hike over terrain that buses or rail would have a terrible time crossing and would only need two stations.

Fully agree, as in my post earlier.

I think this idea sounds really nice and cool, however it seems like CT is trying too hard to look innovative and ahead of the game when in fact there are many other things to be concentrating on. Bike lanes, transit lanes, dynamic [road] signage, the core Ctrain network...

But I would still rather see this than another ring road...

[fusili]

You will be able to see me and Bryce Tupper, a engineer from Norr who specializes in Urban Gondolas on Access tonight between 7:00 and 8:00. I don't know the exact time yet. All in all it was a fun discussion.

[suburb]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

... different than what is being proposed. Even if the scope of the project was reduced to what you're proposing, eliminating the University entirely ...

I don't disagree with all of what you said in your post, but I wanted to highlight that ACH *is on the university's west campus* and that FMC *is on the university's health sciences campus*. While it may still make sense to add a stop is in middle of the university's main campus (perhaps drop you into the skylight on mac hall) even without that we would not be eliminating the university.

Regarding the discussion about the additional stop in the centre of the university campus, it should be noted that this additional stop would not really reduce the number of cars, whereas the stops at ACH and FMC would most definitely.

Originally Posted by Riise

My preliminary conclusion is that a tram would be a better option. Trams have proven themselves as excellent intra-neighbourhood rapid transit systems that can complement an inter-neighbourhood system. In addition, they provide more opportunities for development and redevelopment to occur along the transit line.

You're correct with what trams are able to do, however, in this case the issue is FMC and ACH not being serviced well - and people don't necessarily want extra stops along the way to smell the roses. That being said, I'll toss you a carrot ... this could be nicely incorporated into the redevelopment of hotel village, and for that TOD would be a huge boon

[MichaelS]

Do medical staff have to move back and forth between Foothills and ACH very often? I am just asking, as I have no idea if they do or if they just stay in one hospital all day. If they do move, this would be a pretty easy way to do it.

[M II A II R II K]

Another talking point could be additional people using them to go on rides and not just transit.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Do medical staff have to move back and forth between Foothills and ACH very often? I am just asking, as I have no idea if they do or if they just stay in one hospital all day. If they do move, this would be a pretty easy way to do it.

I would guess not too much now, but certainly it would change the way resources are shared between the hospitals slowly overtime. I'd imagine depending on volumes that it might encourage a centralized lab be built to free up floor space in the hospitals themselves (but that might fall on the wayside due to climate control issues).

In my observations while in hospital there is very little movement even between wards for most staff except for some selected specialist doctors (like anethetists for example). Likely the first big people movements would happen if one hospital had a much better cafeteria, coffee shop, or the like. (or I guess to North Hill Mall's food court). Another change over time would be specialists that have in hospital clinics moving their clinics off the main hospital grounds if the system was reliable and fast enough.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Do medical staff have to move back and forth between Foothills and ACH very often? I am just asking, as I have no idea if they do or if they just stay in one hospital all day. If they do move, this would be a pretty easy way to do it.

Some would. More importantly lots of faculty and staff move between the UofC and the Hospitals during the day. Several doctors may need to go to Main Campus to do a lecture a few times a week and students in programs like the Bachelor of Health Sciences would move between the campuses. But I would have to agree with Malcolm Tucker in that the UofC and Alberta Health Services would be the primary beneficiaries of any transit system there and should contribute some.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by suburb

You're correct with what trams are able to do, however, in this case the issue is FMC and ACH not being serviced well - and people don't necessarily want extra stops along the way to smell the roses.

Well this is where the tram trumps the gondola, it can support both routes that stop to smell the roses and routes that blow the pedals off of their stems as the trams whiz by.

[suburb]

Originally Posted by Riise

Well this is where the tram trumps the gondola, it can support both routes that stop to smell the roses and routes that blow the pedals off of their stems as the trams whiz by.

Alright then, find and buy me a ROW that won't eat in to the traffic flow.

Regarding the other question about staff going between ACH and Foothills, there is but not that much. There used to be a ton more - when hundreds of overflow cars from Foothills used to park on University lands off of the ACH. At that time there were buses going back and forth all day.

The other comments about students and staff / faculty are accurate. There are people, including programs such as nursing, biomedical engineering, etc., that require folks to go back and forth. Don't know the numbers though.

Of ACH and FMC, it is FMC that particularly needs better service. If it was just one destination, it would be FMC.

The new hospital building (McCaig Tower) is very nice on the inside!

[Bigtime]

Fusili should be up any moment on Alberta Primetime discussing the Gondola idea, it's on Access.

[Bigtime]

Mrs. Bigtime has a crush on Fusili.

[monocle]

http://www.albertaprimetime.com/Stories.aspx?pd=2298
Cross post!

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

Mrs. Bigtime has a crush on Fusili.

I look down too much. Oh well, it was fun. I got to see where Barb Higgins sat.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Big Sky

Interesting. Just curious where you got these numbers from? I'm not arguing against them, just curious. It sounds like you've had experience with these things.

7 years working as a ski instructor in Edmonton.

Family history has both parents on Board of Directors for a ski hill and sister with 10+ years experience including 6 years at Sunshine. Cousin worked at Sunshine in lift operations.

During this time I have spent a lot of time hanging around ski lift operations personnel. The numbers quoted above are applicable to Sunshine's new gondola.

To get to a minimum crew of three:
- One operator for the switches.
- One person to load pax.
- One person to off load pax.
At peak times more crew is required for loading and off loading assistance.

Also needs to have one maintenance perosn on shift at all times. However this maintenance person can be responsible for multiple lifts.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by fusili

I look down too much. Oh well, it was fun. I got to see where Barb Higgins sat.

Both of you did, which was pretty funny. You both looked like you were afraid to look at the camera for any length of time haha. It's pretty strange feeling though so I don't blame you.