Banning drive-thrus

[SteelTown]

Some cities pushing back against drive-thrus
Updated Sun. Dec. 9 2007 9:36 AM ET

The Canadian Press

It might be tempting to pull up to the drive-thru window to fill up on food and coffee on frosty winter mornings, but some Canadian communities are arguing that traffic safety and concern for the environment should trump convenience.

At some popular fast-food restaurants across the country, lineups are so long they stretch out of parking lots and spill onto public streets, and politicians are eyeing the emissions spewed by all the idling cars, trucks and sport utility vehicles.

In London, Ont., civic leaders are considering restrictions on existing drive-thrus to try to clear the air. A citizens' advisory committee is also recommending a moratorium on new drive-thrus, although the mayor is trying to strike a balance.

"I don't support a ban or a moratorium on drive-thrus ... but if there are ways in which we can improve the air quality in ways that I can't imagine at this point, I'm really open to looking at that and seeing if we can strengthen our bylaws," says Anne-Marie DeCicco-Best.

London council is gathering public input on a range of options, from banning new outlets to tightening zoning bylaws to make more areas of the city drive-thru-free. City staff have floated the idea of restricting the hours of operation for drive-thrus, and a decision is expected in the new year.

In Hamilton, Ont., where Mayor Fred Eisenberger describes himself as "reasonably anti-drive-thru," council is studying an environmental group's call for a moratorium on new drive-thrus.

In Kings County, N.S., one politician has argued that only people with decreased mobility should be entitled to get their food while in their vehicle.

"I think a pregnant mom or a disabled person or a person who couldn't get out of their vehicle or an older person, they could use the drive-thru," says Wayne Atwater. "But these people that are able-bodied men and women, I certainly don't see any reason why they can't get out of their vehicle."

Atwater pushed for a moratorium on new drive-thrus last winter, citing concerns about carbon monoxide and traffic problems, but he couldn't persuade his council colleagues.

Communities from Toronto to St. John's, Nfld., have taken steps to ensure that drive-thrus are far from certain residential streets or big enough to fit a long lineup of cars. But it's the increasing worry over greenhouse gas emissions that's prompting a second look.

Students at the University of Alberta monitored a popular Tim Hortons outlet in Edmonton last year for 54 hours and counted 3,756 vehicles idling for an average of more than five minutes each. The longest idle was more than 12 minutes.

Tim Hortons's drive-thrus tend to generate the most attention because of their popularity. In Winnipeg, cars spill out of Tim's lots onto such major thoroughfares as Portage Ave. and St. Mary's Road as drivers queue up for a java jolt.

"They're victims of their own success," said Winnipeg councillor Mike O'Shaughnessy. "You can see 15, 16 cars in line at three in the afternoon or seven in the evening."

Winnipeg has rejected two proposals for Tim Hortons this year. One was nixed because it would have interfered with a driveway of an adjacent business. The other was axed because nearby residents expressed concerns about traffic.

But O'Shaughnessy says those were individual cases and Winnipeg has no plans to crack down on drive-thrus. "We're not against Tim Hortons. We're not against drive-thrus," said O'Shaughnessy. "They're very popular."

Tim Hortons says it has taken steps to reduce drive-thru lineups, such as allowing motorists to use credit cards that don't require signatures. Many drive-thru work stations now have their own coffee maker and other equipment, so attendants don't have to walk to another part of the shop to fill an order.

The company also says it meets or exceeds space requirements in city bylaws. "We tend to find sites that are a little bit larger so we can accommodate a big parking lot and have a larger than required drive-thru," said Tim Hortons spokesperson Rachel Douglas from the company's headquarters in Oakville, Ont.

"(Drive-thrus) are almost becoming a bit of an essential service. You have parents with young children, you have elderly people with mobility issues. We find that our customers are wanting drive-thrus and are using drive-thrus and that's really what's behind the demand."

[chris k]

I agree with banning dirve thrus as it will help people realize cars are not as conveniant and will probably lower obesity rates and other health rates as people will have to walk out of their car to get their coffees and fatty burgers. Another benefit would of course be the lower emissions from idling vehicles.

The only downside would be all the space dedicated to drive thrus will be turned into.....more parking!

I think drive-thrus should be banned in certain locations (downtown and inner city), but not banned altogether. Obviously when you're trying to create vibrant mixed-use streets, you don't want that being interrupted with a drive-thru. But with the way we build suburbs today, drive-thrus make sense. In the case of Tim Horton's in Cambridge, they get so backed up that people park, get out of their cars and line up inside at a certain point because it takes less time. Having both means faster service (assuming there's enough staff). And at Timmy's, anything to make the lines shorter helps.

[DC83]

Drive-Thrus don't quite make sense... they just fit in better w/ suburbs than in inner-cities.

Drive-thrus in an inner-city environment causes un-wanted/needed congestion. Take a look at King/Dundurn's Tim's-Harvey's plaza. The exit from that lot onto King creates such a back-log of cars. So once they sit, idle, pollute while waiting for the non-recylable Tim's cup of Coffee they have to sit, idle, pollute again while waiting in line to get OUT of the lot.

So thinking of all the bad that comes from drive-thrus (greenhouse emissions, laziness, obesity & it's related diseases, killing urban life, etc)... I don't think they should limit the ban to only inner-city but rather city-wide INCL suburbs!

[SteelTown]

I think they should ban drive thrus. Most of the Tim Hortons on the Mountain are mostly without the drive thrus, though lately they've been closing the old ones and replacing them with drive thrus. I live close to the Tim Hortons that's close to Ancaster and it doesn't have a drive thru.

The Tim Hortons at Upper James and Stone Church has a huge line up because it's the only drive thru Tim Hortons in the upper West Mount area, yet the West Mount area is the most populated area in Hamilton, that's why there's two Tim Horton's next door to each other.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

I live close to the Tim Hortons that's close to Ancaster and it doesn't have a drive thru.

The one across from Olympic Park? I like that one. Still has the old time Tim's feel to it. Kind of like Tim Horton's #1 did b4 they re-did it in 2000

And ya, those lineups are just rediculous. It's not just Upp James/Stonechurch, but the majority of the drive-thru locations.
There are actually TWO Tim's drive-thru's right there and yet both are packed.

[raisethehammer]

let's not waste our time. this is Hamilton. The car is king.

I agree with an urban ban on drivethrus.
It's kind of tough to ban them in wastelands like meadowlands. if we're going to let crap like that get built, then drive-thrus will be natural in those areas since the entire thing is dedicated to cars.

and I wouldn't worry about places adding more surface parking if they lose their drivethrus.
I've never seen a fast food place with a full lot. ever.

[SteelTown]

^ You should see the new A&W at Upper James. Packed with cars lined up and people lining out the door. They even have music playing outside, right now it's Christmas music.

[raisethehammer]

A&W is so gross. nothing like the original.
Now it's the same mass produced little burger patties full of filler like McD's and everyone else.
I don't drink pop, but I'm hoping they at least sell A&W root beer like the old stuff. I recall it was pretty good last time I had some (going back a decade, so my memory may be failing me..haha)

[fastcarsfreedom]

Needless to say, I'm against a ban on Drive Thrus. Opposed to it Thru-and-Thru. The only reason this is cropping up as an issue is because of Tim Hortons--the previous generation stores which were built without Drive-Thru service are being replaced en masse. Those locations around you that you like so much--are probably all endangered, the sales from Drive Thru are such that just won't do without them--I suspect this is happening in other cities with older TH's (like most of the Ontario cities mentioned). Starbucks follows this same tack--though not exclusively--it's 'urban' locations obviously don't have Drive Thrus...but it's suburban "new build" stores all do--they've built 5 or 6 here in Windsor in the last couple of years.

As for A&W, they were one of the pioneers of "mass produced little burger patties full of filler"...my only beef with them is those nasty coated french fries--I don't know why so many places (KFC, BK, A&W, DQ) went to this wretched things...they are awful and taste like no stick spray...oh well, if nothing else it keeps me from eating fries...which isn't a bad thing.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Oh, and, McDonald's doesn't use filler.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Oh, and, McDonald's doesn't use filler.

'beef' from hundreds of different mass-raised cows pumped full of steroids, chemicals and injections from several different nations all arriving in a single "all beef patty" is not my idea of food. Doesn't get more filler than that.
Anyone hungry??

Again, the drive thru ban is a non-issue in this city.
We don't have leadership on council that will even do simple things like have people become responsible for their OWN garbage. private business has hijacked much of our so-called 'public' life and process in Hamilton.
Drive thru ban won't happen here....along with many other progressive, healthy and image changing initatives that are taking place all over the real world.
We should put up a new entrance sign coming into town -
"Welcome to Hamilton. You'll love reliving the 1950's. Everyday. Don't worry about the few years of your life you'll lose living here. All those other cities have it wrong."

[HAMRetrofit]

Keep drive throughs. Just ban surface parking lots province wide. That is the way to get cities to stop wasting space. Think of the millions of hectares of developable land this would open up.

[SteelTown]

Doesn't Hamilton ready ban drive thrus for the downtown core?

[DC83]

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

Keep drive throughs. Just ban surface parking lots province wide. That is the way to get cities to stop wasting space. Think of the millions of hectares of developable land this would open up.

The MAIN issue with drive-thrus is health & environment, not wasted land.
Surface lots ARE a huge problem (especially in this city), but they don't kill.
Drive-Thrus cause ppl to be lazy which inturn creates obesity and it's accompanied diseases. Drive-Thrus also allow for more-than-necessary amounts of Carbon Emissions to enter our atmosphere (thanks to idling cars).

Surface lots waste space that we can build on.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Doesn't Hamilton ready ban drive thrus for the downtown core?

not that I know of. IF they do, I'm sure there are a pile of exemptions making it a useless bylaw.

Hortons opened one a few years ago at Bay and Cannon.

I'm not aware of any bylaw affecting downtown. Although it would make sense in the urban area.

[HAMRetrofit]

Is there a study available that concludes the health risks of drive-thrus? I would like to take a look at it.

Banning surface lots would cut down on emissions in a significant way because it would force developers and municipalities to be more strategic in the way they develop. For example, when faced with construction costs of buried or raised parking structures, they would become more dependant on building formats that favor access to transit and pedestrians. Additionally, development areas on the periphery would loose their advantage of providing quantifiable land with cheep building types. Since available parking would be reduced, more alternative methods of transportation would develop. It would place city cores at a major advantage for development reducing the major infrastructure burden of low density growth on the province.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

Is there a study available that concludes the health risks of drive-thrus? I would like to take a look at it.

Traffic, air quality mean double-double trouble for drive-thrus
Last Updated: Monday, December 10, 2007 | 9:24 AM ET

The Canadian Press

It might be tempting to pull up to the drive-thru window to fill up on food and coffee on frosty winter mornings, but some Canadian communities are arguing that traffic safety and concern for the environment should trump convenience.

At some popular fast-food restaurants across the country, lineups are so long they stretch out of parking lots and spill onto public streets, and politicians are eyeing the emissions spewed by all the idling cars, trucks and sport utility vehicles.

In London, Ont., civic leaders are considering restrictions on existing drive-thrus to try to clear the air. A citizens' advisory committee is also recommending a moratorium on new drive-thrus, although the mayor is trying to strike a balance.

"I don't support a ban or a moratorium on drive-thrus … but if there are ways in which we can improve the air quality in ways that I can't imagine at this point, I'm really open to looking at that and seeing if we can strengthen our bylaws," said Anne Marie DeCicco-Best.

London council is gathering public input on a range of options, from banning new outlets to tightening zoning bylaws to make more areas of the city drive-thru-free. City staff have floated the idea of restricting the hours of operation for drive-thrus, and a decision is expected in the new year.

In Hamilton, Ont., where Mayor Fred Eisenberger describes himself as "reasonably anti-drive-thru," council is studying an environmental group's call for a moratorium on new drive-thrus. In Kings County, N.S., one politician has argued that only people with decreased mobility should be entitled to get their food while in their vehicle.

"I think a pregnant mom or a disabled person or a person who couldn't get out of their vehicle or an older person, they could use the drive-thru," says Wayne Atwater.

"But these people that are able-bodied men and women, I certainly don't see any reason why they can't get out of their vehicle."

Atwater pushed for a moratorium on new drive-thrus last winter, citing concerns about carbon monoxide and traffic problems, but he couldn't persuade his council colleagues.

Cars in Tim Hortons queue idle an average of 5 minutes: study

Students at the University of Alberta monitored a popular Tim Hortons outlet in Edmonton last year for 54 hours and counted 3,756 vehicles idling for an average of more than five minutes each. The longest idle was more than 12 minutes.

Winnipeg has rejected two proposals for Tim Hortons this year. One was nixed because it would have interfered with a driveway of an adjacent business. The other was axed because nearby residents expressed concerns about traffic.

But Winnipeg Coun. Mike O'Shaughnessy says those were individual cases and Winnipeg has no plans to crack down on drive-thrus.

"We're not against Tim Hortons. We're not against drive-thrus," said O'Shaughnessy. "They're very popular."

Drive-thrus an 'essential service,' company says

Tim Hortons says it has taken steps to reduce drive-thru lineups, such as allowing motorists to use credit cards that don't require signatures. Many drive-thru work stations now have their own coffee maker and other equipment, so attendants don't have to walk to another part of the shop to fill an order.

"(Drive-thrus) are almost becoming a bit of an essential service. You have parents with young children, you have elderly people with mobility issues. We find that our customers are wanting drive-thrus and are using drive-thrus and that's really what's behind the demand."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...drivethru.html

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Now I'll see if I can find any reports. Geez, ur like a Prof or something hahaha

[the dude]

tim horton's is very lucky this country's full of fat, lazy lardasses.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I think the majority of posters here have some good positive ideas. Unfortunately comments such as "tim horton's is very lucky this country's full of fat, lazy lardasses." make you sound like elitist snobs. Again, visiting the places I've visited in this country and elsewhere--I have yet to determine where "the real world" is--or these wonderful places that are doing all these progressive and positive things. And what are these things? And where are these places so free of big box stores and fast-food?

RTH--you're great--honestly, it's rare that someone is committed as you to wanting this to be a better place--but your passion translates into consistently negative diatrades--I can't help but ask myself why you tough it out, honestly, when the place you live, and claim to love--is so miserable and backward. And as for McDonald's--what can I say--free will--no one forces you to eat the food--so what's your worry?

This Forum is increasingly less about ideas for the future and more about self-rightousness and piety. Seriously, are all of you really that much better than the rest of us? Sure sounds that way.