The "me-too" movement

[RWin]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Valid point. I would say you are correct as long as she chose to drink and was not tricked into getting drunk in anyway.

This sounds like you are saying rape is okay if the victim is drunk. Please say this isn't so.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Let's see, what do we have here.

A self styled soap box constructed to explicitly vent about theoretical issues which have no actual bearing on reality.

A general ignorance of the timeline of events to invoke the self constructed soap box.

A twisting of facts to blame the victim of sexual harassment.

A total ignorance of the abuse of power factors involved in the circumstances.

A general attitude which encourages other individuals to keep quiet about similar circumstances lest they be blamed as the victims and other crass ignorant comments to be made regarding the circumstances of your harassment.

When people lament about the potential for innocent lives being ruined, responses like this will be referenced to justify the necessity of collateral damage in forcing the conversation to be changed regarding the nature of these things.

Your time is up.

Amen!

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by geotag277

I think people are being deliberately obtuse in characterising what is actually happening and what people actually have a problem with. In both the Kent Hehr case and the Patrick Brown case, we are talking about individuals in a position of authority preying on individuals who work for them. That is inappropriate workplace conduct, and in both cases the circumstances of the events seem to clearly indicate impropriety with respect to their positions.

No one is talking about guys using pick up lines at a bar and getting shot down. No one is talking about "the chase" of girls playing hard to get and guys being immediately guilty of sexual harassment "playing the game".

As far as a widespread chilling effect - GOOD. Look at what is happening and what has happened. A widespread chilling effect cannot be characterised as anything other than a positive. Things have been so out of balance for so long, people are equating having a widespread chilling effect as being the apocalypse, but that's just a sign of how people got comfortable with the status quo.

Again, I expect there to be quite a few bumps along the way. Progress towards justice and a more civil fair society is never a straight line linear path with no problems along the way. Are some careers and lives going to be ruined along the way, perhaps unjustly? Undoubtedly. But the pendulum is swinging the other way and on balance this is generally a good thing for society and for us to progress towards a better future.

We need to have this conversation. We all need to take it more seriously. And the responses littered in this very thread mocking the "me too" movement and inventing theoretical reasons for why it is a negative thing on society are telling of just how far we have to go to move towards that ideal. Just take a look at some of the responses in this thread, which "me too" detractors seem to be wilfully ignoring or tacitly accepting as status quo "the way society works".

ab-so-lute-ly!

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Let's see, what do we have here.

A self styled soap box constructed to explicitly vent about theoretical issues which have no actual bearing on reality.

A general ignorance of the timeline of events to invoke the self constructed soap box.

A twisting of facts to blame the victim of sexual harassment.

A total ignorance of the abuse of power factors involved in the circumstances.

A general attitude which encourages other individuals to keep quiet about similar circumstances lest they be blamed as the victims and other crass ignorant comments to be made regarding the circumstances of your harassment.

When people lament about the potential for innocent lives being ruined, responses like this will be referenced to justify the necessity of collateral damage in forcing the conversation to be changed regarding the nature of these things.

Your time is up.

I knew I would get chastised for asking these questions, which is why I started out my post as "sort of off topic" in which a meant a girl, not necessarily the girl in question. I meant that question in a responsible way, which is when do we hold a person accountable for their sexual behaviour when drunk, in the same way we would if they were driving drunk. I'd say at this point in society, a girl who has mistakenly but made the choice to have sex when she is drunk is considered a victim, whereas a girl who has mistakenly but made the choice to drive drunk is considered a culprit.

I feel, and maybe I am wrong by society's standards, that the former is more easily to be sold as a victim case the next day when she realizes the mistake she made, as being pressured into drinking.

For example, if I meet a woman at a bar and we both get drunk and have sex that. Ought, can she more easily claim victim, saying I got her drunk, and not be held accountable for her decision.

I understand this is a touchy subject, which is why I contemplated even asking, but if I am silenced to ask these questions, or chastised for asking them like you have, how progressive really is our society to better understand the rules, boundaries, standards and expections we expect ourselves to be held accountable to?

Sorry if I hit a nerve...

[geotag277]

I would suggest if your first reaction to hearing these stories is to immediately jump to ways in which you can invent theoretical reasons for why the individual sharing their story can be discredited, and should not feel harrassed, and are invalid in sharing their story, that it is time to quiet that part of your brain compelling you to react in this way, and just listen.

It's time to learn how to listen.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

I knew I would get chastised for asking these questions, which is why I started out my post as "sort of off topic" in which a meant a girl, not necessarily the girl in question. I meant that question in a responsible way, which is when do we hold a person accountable for their sexual behaviour when drunk, in the same way we would if they were driving drunk. I'd say at this point in society, a girl who has mistakenly but made the choice to have sex when she is drunk is considered a victim, whereas a girl who has mistakenly but made the choice to drive drunk is considered a culprit.

I feel, and maybe I am wrong by society's standards, that the former is more easily to be sold as a victim case the next day when she realizes the mistake she made, as being pressured into drinking.

For example, if I meet a woman at a bar and we both get drunk and have sex that. Ought, can she more easily claim victim, saying I got her drunk, and not be held accountable for her decision.

I understand this is a touchy subject, which is why I contemplated even asking, but if I am silenced to ask these questions, or chastised for asking them like you have, how progressive really is our society to better understand the rules, boundaries, standards and expections we expect ourselves to be held accountable to?

Sorry if I hit a nerve...

Allow me to explain it in less combative terms. Comparing a girl getting drunk at a party or bar to a girl drinking and getting behind the wheel of a car is problematic for a few reasons. First it's a false equivalence because going out to have fun and drink legally should not be the same as risking your life operating a vehicle while impaired. Secondly driving drunk is illegal whereas last I checked women are allowed to consume alcohol if they are of age. Third you are shifting the blame from the perpetrators of sexual assaults and rape to the victims. This mentality is the same as "She was asking for it" if a woman dresses provocatively.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by geotag277

I would suggest if your first reaction to hearing these stories is to immediately jump to ways in which you can invent theoretical reasons for why the individual sharing their story can be discredited, and should not feel harrassed, and are invalid in sharing their story, that it is time to quiet that part of your brain compelling you to react in this way, and just listen.

It's time to learn how to listen.

Ok... now you are being condescending... trust me, my first reaction was listen, I listened to all the stories and heard their unfortunate circumstances, and I agree with each and every single one of them, and believe each and everyone of them... My first reaction was certainly not come onto this board and question their stories legitimacy, as I think you perceive.

I have been giving you examples of scenarios in general, not in particular to any of these women's stories. Every one of them I believe are legitimate: please don't get me wrong.

This entire topic is what prompted me to ask the questions I did. And seeing as I did, I am being told to just shut my mouth.

[RWin]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

I meant that question in a responsible way, which is when do we hold a person accountable for their sexual behaviour when drunk, in the same way we would if they were driving drunk. I'd say at this point in society, a girl who has mistakenly but made the choice to have sex when she is drunk is considered a victim, whereas a girl who has mistakenly but made the choice to drive drunk is considered a culprit.

One thing about driving drunk though is the car isn't in a position of power sitting out there in the parking lot pressuring her to drive.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Allow me to explain it in less combative terms. Comparing a girl getting drunk at a party or bar to a girl drinking and getting behind the wheel of a car is problematic for a few reasons. First it's a false equivalence because going out to have fun and drink legally should not be the same as risking your life operating a vehicle while impaired. Secondly driving drunk is illegal whereas last I checked women are allowed to consume alcohol if they are of age. Third you are shifting the blame from the perpetrators of sexual assaults and rape to the victims. This mentality is the same as "She was asking for it" if a woman dresses provocatively.

Sincerely, Thank you, for providing answers or responses to my questions and topic of discussion.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by RWin

One thing about driving drunk though is the car isn't in a position of power sitting out there in the parking lot pressuring her to drive.

I'm didn't describe in the scenario that the male was in position of power, just that it was a male.

Anyway... I regret asking... the scenario I was trying to describe has been taken out of context anyways.

[bless-u]

Again, not to comment on any specific case. I've found an article which may give new perspective or input on the on-going discussion here.

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/chr...7-7791981ec651

[O-tacular]

Can I just say that in spite of its' blemishes the #metoo movement is amazing for how it has changed our victim blaming culture. Simply hearing politicians and CEO's and other public figures acknowledge victims rather than condemn them has done so much to empower those who have been wronged. It isn't easy to come forward with allegations. No one does it lightly because they know the scrutiny it will bring. In the past this was used as a weapon to keep victims silent. Not coming forward and simply moving on was seen as the less painful option. But you never get closure that way and justice is never done. Predators re-offend with impunity. Well that time is over! I hope these abusers of power are quaking in their boots. Their enablers too.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by bless-u

Again, not to comment on any specific case. I've found an article which may give new perspective or input on the on-going discussion here.

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/chr...7-7791981ec651

Thanks for sharing. I am glad the author is a female. Otherwise I fear it may be judged in an entire different light.

[RWin]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

I'm didn't describe in the scenario that the male was in position of power, just that it was a male.

Even so, a person is not a car whether in a position of power or not.

Much of this conversation just shows how the victim is victimized again when coming forward.

It makes me afraid for my own kids.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by RWin

Even so, a person is not a car whether in a position of power or not.

Much of this conversation just shows how the victim is victimized again when coming forward.

It makes me afraid for my own kids.

This! One of the hardest parts about coming forward is whether or not you will be believed. The insanity of it is that a victim can start questioning their own victimhood. That is the nature of these kinds of abuses. Abusers thrive by making their victims afraid to tell the truth and afraid that no one will believe them. They are told that they were complicit or that they enjoyed it. The shame that it causes is indescribable. It's toxic. It leads to addiction and suicide and lives wasted. You carry that shame in your bones and your very soul is contaminated by it. That cloak of shame is being lifted and we as a society will be the better for it.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by bless-u

Again, not to comment on any specific case. I've found an article which may give new perspective or input on the on-going discussion here.

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/chr...7-7791981ec651

The article is disingenuous because it assumes no research or vetting was done on the claims themselves. The article might have been more appropriate concerning the Kent Hehr accusations (which were simply twitter messages), not the Patrick Brown events. In either case, the result seems to be congruent with the claims (Kent Hehr stepped down and will resign pending the outcome of the investigation, Brown was forced out).

Finally, the author doesn't seem to be a friend of sexual assault victims, as one victim who ended up hanging herself over bullying, her father had to respond to a particularly insensitive article regarding this same author:

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/...chfords-column

A lack of empathy for the victims seem to run throughout her commentary. Perhaps this way of thinking appeals to a certain personality?

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by RWin

And your insight has been ignored for 44 posts.

Is there a reason you are being snarky?

[niwell]

Every time I read a Christie Blatchford article I can feel my brain seeping out of my orifices. I am not sure why, with Patrick brown, people don’t understand it’s the PC party who pressured him to resign after the accusations. Presumably his own party and closest staffers know more than the rest of us. This isn’t a court of law. It doesn’t involve the liberals at all.

[RWin]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Is there a reason you are being snarky?

Yes. I think you have important insight and everyone is ignoring you.

And that may speak louder than anyone actually addressing your comments.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Is there a reason you are being snarky?

I could be wrong but I think RWin was saying your opinion was ignored in favour of (predominantly) hetero male views. It was worded a bit awkwardly though.