Mobility Pricing

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Any referendum on this will fail and those who bring it forward will be punished.

Apparently referendums aren't a requirement anymore:
https://twitter.com/richardzussman/s...74643934568448

Originally Posted by Richard Zussman

Big change from @bcliberals to scrap requirement to have referendum for new funding sources for transit bucks. #bcpoli

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by dpogue

Apparently referendums aren't a requirement anymore:
https://twitter.com/richardzussman/s...74643934568448

This will go through a referendum. Otherwise it would just be political suicide and any work towards would be rolled back and killed for good.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by cornholio

This will go through a referendum. Otherwise it would just be political suicide and any work towards would be rolled back and killed for good.

If they do a referendum, it should come after a trial period in which everybody can experience the benefits like they did in Stockholm.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

If they do a referendum, it should come after a trial period in which everybody can experience the benefits like they did in Stockholm.

Stockholm does not have mobility pricing, it has a small flat variable toll to enter a <30km central section of the city that has adequate other infrastructure in place. Mobility pricing first of all will be a infringement on privacy rights, ignoring that it will cost billions to set up and hundreds of millions yearly to administer. There will be no trial. The idea is dead. I cant believe people are even proposing it, the same people surely that are responsible for the state we are in.

And if it ever got to it there absolutely would be a referendum. This proposal is borderline insane and the people would be voting on it. Or do you think you know better and you want to circumvent democracy and the will of the vast majority of the working class population that is already overtaxed and suffering as a result of congestion among other problems that are all due to poor planning by municipal and regional governments?. /rant

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by cornholio

And if it ever got to it there absolutely would be a referendum. This proposal is borderline insane and the people would be voting on it. Or do you think you know better and you want to circumvent democracy and the will of the vast majority of the working class population that is already overtaxed and suffering as a result of congestion among other problems that are all due to poor planning by municipal and regional governments?. /rant

This would replace the gas tax, so people wouldn't be paying more taxes.

[Gordon]

The NDP\ Green government will get rid of th requirement for a transit referendum

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Mobility pricing first of all will be a infringement on privacy rights, ignoring that it will cost billions to set up and hundreds of millions yearly to administer. There will be no trial. The idea is dead. I cant believe people are even proposing it, the same people surely that are responsible for the state we are in.

I believe Mobility Pricing if designed properly can protect people's privacy.

Let me try an analogy to explain how it might work: People currently use mobile phones and the mobile phone providers record all the phone calls you make and who you make them to. They, however, do not record what you say in the conversations. Mobility pricing could work in a similar way - it record when you made the trip and how much it cost, but no specific location data would recorded for anybody to look at. It would be very similar to your phone bill.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

I believe Mobility Pricing if designed properly can protect people's privacy.

Let me try an analogy to explain how it might work: People currently use mobile phones and the mobile phone providers record all the phone calls you make and who you make them to. They, however, do not record what you say in the conversations. Mobility pricing could work in a similar way - it record when you made the trip and how much it cost, but no specific location data would recorded for anybody to look at. It would be very similar to your phone bill.

Mobile companies do record location data and give it to law enforcement when a warrant is issued.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Mobile companies do record location data and give it to law enforcement when a warrant is issued.

Yes, and the government does give out traffic camera footage as well, and I'll wager that this guy had toll camera photos used against him.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

This would replace the gas tax, so people wouldn't be paying more taxes.

Not so... read below from a recent Global news article. They are looking to raise new revenue for transportation projects. Therefore, it is not just about reducing congestion. Sounds like another tax grab!!!


( “We’re going to work with the Mayors’ Council, we’re going to work with members of the legislature to come up with a framework to build the transit and transportation infrastructure we need in British Columbia but we’re going to do it in a way that is fair to all British Columbians,” he said.

If such tolls go away, Metro Vancouver drivers could end up facing some sort of “mobility pricing,” an idea that the Mayors’ Council believes could help pay for billions of dollars in transit and infrastructure improvements. )

[Trainguy]

News 1130

"The Port Mann Bridge has seen its fair share of delays since tolls were lifted on September 1st, and it’s not just the extra traffic volume.

The crossing is handling an extra 30-thousand trips per day, leading to more significant accidents and frustrations for drivers.


Commuters like Charity Long — who drives between Maple Ridge and Vancouver — have seen the difference.

“My commute into work is an extra 25 minutes a day and my commute home has been at least an extra half hour,” she tells NEWS 1130, blaming more traffic and more accidents since the tolls were eliminated on the Port Mann and Golden Ears bridges.

Long almost wishes the province would start charging drivers for crossing them again.

“Absolutely, it’s terrible,” she laughs. “It’s selfish but I want those tolls back on.”

Jen Coles in the NEWS 1130 Traffic Centre reports on the Port Mann Bridge during the busy weekday commute and says the delays have noticeably increased along Highway One over the past six weeks.

“There are definitely more collisions, more problems and more volume. Every day we are seeing an issue in that stretch between the Port Mann and the Iron Workers Memorial Crossing,” she says.

“Now that we are into the fall we can see it is an increase in volume and, in turn, an increase in problems. People are not paying attention, they’re driving too fast and not leaving enough time and room, causing problems.”

Coles says callers to *1130 have been frustrated.

“We went from a bridge that was not seeing a lot of volume, with a quick commute through the Burnaby Lake stretch. When there was a problem it didn’t cause much of a back up — we hadn’t seen a back up into Surrey since the tolls were put in,” she explains.

“When you remove the tolls you get more volume and more collisions and now people are late for work and they’re trying to race, which is only adding to the problems on the highway.”

Those additional problems are not surprising to transportation expert Gordon Price at Simon Fraser University.

“This is physics. Whether it’s atoms or automobiles, if you increase the number of units going the same speed in the same space, I think a physicist can probably work out exactly what you’re likely to see in the way of more collisions,” he says.

Price suggests the return to longer delays on the Port Mann Bridge likely won’t change if the region moves ahead with some form of road-pricing as a replacement for individual bridge tolls.

“It really isn’t reasonable or fair to think that tolling should only be on bridges, and certainly not for only parts of the region,” he adds.

“But how you do it fairly across a whole region in a way that all transit users and drivers feel is fair — that’s the political challenge.”

Price expects Metro Vancouver and the province to move forward with some form of mobility pricing — paying for distance travelled — as a replacement for bridge tolls.

“One way or the other, new technologies are going to allow us to properly price the use of the road or any form of transportation in a way that better reflects what the real value is,” Price says.

“Making the right choices is what the mobility pricing commission is looking at and ultimately what our political leaders are going to have to decide on.”

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Long almost wishes the province would start charging drivers for crossing them again.

I've always maintained that removing tolls is a stupid idea, but if it teaches people about their benefits and brings about actual widespread political support for them then perhaps it was a good idea after all...

[theKB]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

an idea that the Mayors’ Council believes could help pay for billions of dollars in transit and infrastructure improvements. )

We already have one of these through the fuel tax within the metro vancouver boundaries, that said there is your issue, tying the tax to something that is totally avoidable and also declining in income through more efficient cars and cars that use no gas at all. They would be smart to eliminate the gas tax entirely and move the funding to another source. Frankly property taxes or utilities are the way to go because each and every person contributes to these taxes whether you own property or not.

So if we limit this (like the gas tax) to metro residents only, the people that live mission and east are off the hook?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by theKB

They would be smart to eliminate the gas tax entirely and move the funding to another source. Frankly property taxes or utilities are the way to go because each and every person contributes to these taxes whether you own property or not.

The huge problem with doing that is that it completely disconnects the fee you pay from the amount of driving you do. There are two reasons why that's a problem:

a) it means that someone who bikes, walks, or drives very little pays just as much as someone who commutes 150km every day.

b) it does nothing to alleviate congestion by discouraging unneeded trips.

The sudden congestion on the Port Mann bridge illustrates exactly how this latter problem manifests itself - tens of thousands of motorists who used to avoid this bridge have materialized to fill it to near capacity during peak hours.

The whole point of mobility pricing isn't to raise money - it's to control congestion. And you can only do that if you charge something for every trip. It doesn't have to be the same cost - a smart system could vary the prices based on congestion, location and time of day. But you need that link in order to influence driver behaviour.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by theKB

We already have one of these through the fuel tax within the metro vancouver boundaries, that said there is your issue, tying the tax to something that is totally avoidable and also declining in income through more efficient cars and cars that use no gas at all. They would be smart to eliminate the gas tax entirely and move the funding to another source. Frankly property taxes or utilities are the way to go because each and every person contributes to these taxes whether you own property or not.

Mobility pricing would replace the gas tax. The 10-Year Vision states:

Mobility pricing on the road network would help generate funding to implement the remainder of this Vision and shift taxation away from the fuel sales tax -- which is a declining revenue source due to increased vehicle efficiency and leakage to areas outside of the region

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Mobility pricing would replace the gas tax. The 10-Year Vision states:

This is from last June. Will be interesting to see what they come up with.

"An independent commission tasked with figuring out the future of transportation pricing in Metro Vancouver has officially started its work.

Over the next ten months, members will consider a wide range of mobility pricing options, including new fees for using certain roads at certain times, tolls on more bridges, and tweaks to the current public transit pricing model.

Vancouver Mayor Gregor Robertson, chair of the Mayors’ Council on Regional Transportation, notes that some key commuter routes already take drivers ten to 15 minutes longer than they did a decade ago, and that one million more people are expected to move to the region over the next 30 years.

“We need to improve the system to reduce the traffic congestion,” says Robertson. “We need a system that’s more fair, and mobility pricing is an approach many cities are taking now to raise some funding.”

Former BC deputy minister Allan Seckel has been tapped to chair the commission, and former NDP MLA Joy MacPhail will be the vice-chair. Other members of the commission are still being finalized.

The commission’s findings will be tabled in the spring of 2018. Depending on what they are, provincial approval may be needed before the ideas can be implemented.

“Mobility pricing, the way it’s defined in the terms of reference, is very broad, so it’s not one solution or another that we’re looking at,” says Daniel Firth, the commission’s executive director. “Might we arrive at the end of this (and find) the system we have today is, if not the best option, then the least-worst option? It’s entirely possible.”

The commission has a budget of $2.31 million, including a $550 per-meeting stipend for each member."

[Trainguy]

Here is the latest gossip.....

SURREY (NEWS 1130) – Earlier this week NEWS 1130 reported about the after-effects of lifting the tolls on the Port Mann and Golden Ears Bridges.

Currently, the Port Mann is handling an additional 30,000 trips every day which is leading to an increased number of collisions and delays for drivers trying to get to either side of the Fraser River. And there is rampant speculation about what could replace the tolls and one suggestion is road pricing for the entire region.

Gord Price with SFU says technology is changing very fast that even your smartphone could be used to track where and how far you drive for the purpose of road pricing.

He explains both Washington and Oregon states are already testing out different technologies. “They are already introducing, certainly experimenting, and now I think they’ll move very quickly towards some sort of mobility pricing once they find out what the results of their experiments are. We’ll be able to use what they learn to.”

He calls individual bridge tolling an outdated convention — neither reasonable nor fair. “One way or another, new technologies are going to allow us to properly price the use of the road or really any form of transportation in a way that more reflects what the real value is.”

NEWS 1130 asked Premier John Horgan about the uptick in crashes and his thoughts on the increased congestion on the Port Mann Bridge, and he, essentially, isn’t backing down from his decision to get rid of the tolls.

He thinks it’s unfortunate, adding, “but on balance, the response that I’m hearing from people in Surrey, particularly, but also Maple Ridge and all those that use our infrastructure to move around — not just for work, but for business and for pleasure — are delighted that they’re not being penalized for where they live.”

Horgan also doesn’t think the increased number of crashes will impact ICBC rates.

TransLink, the Mayors’ Council and the provincial government are waiting for recommendations from an independent mobility pricing commission before deciding on how to move ahead on regional transportation pricing.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

He calls individual bridge tolling an outdated convention — neither reasonable nor fair.

How is not charging the exact people using the bridge not reasonable or fair?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Jebby

How is not charging the exact people using the bridge not reasonable or fair?

Because no one else pays a specific charge for the roads they use, if it isn't a specific bridge. This should be obvious.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

good luck tracking people smart phones. because people will go for that. or also trackers in cars. i certainly wouldn't allow that for myself.