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  #2061  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2014, 3:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
It's really unfortunate that Americans can let massive parts of their cities turn to complete shit and have people living in 3rd world conditions. The social programs required to fix a lot of it would probably lead to cries of socialism from the right wing.

We do a much better job here, unless you look at Indian Reserves...
Canada is quite unique in that regard - and it's something I'm glad rubbed off on us as well.

Most countries really don't give a shit about having extreme poverty right in their faces. The U.S. doesn't, Newfoundland certainly didn't (we had a Central Slum without running water or sewerage right in the middle of downtown St. John's until the mid-1950s), the U.K. doesn't.

Canada seems perfectly content to tolerate extreme poverty if its out of sight, but they sure do a lot to avoid it in the areas where the ruling class lives. It's a really admirable cultural trait. Still lots to do, of course, especially on reserves as you mention... but Canada is way ahead of most.
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  #2062  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2014, 3:57 AM
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Vancouver is at 1. Some young Surrey dude in a brawl on Granville St. Died from a stab wound.
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  #2063  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2014, 4:05 AM
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We do a much better job here, unless you look at Indian Reserves...
It's much worse in the US. There are around 50,000 residents (only half actually native people) of Montana's seven reservations and in 2005 (the most recent year I can find stats for), there were 48 murders on them. That's double the rate for Detroit for the same year and nothing in Canada comes remotely close. The murder rate among natives proper is probably much higher since many of the non-natives on Montana reservations are living in enclaves analogous to Redwood Meadows in Tsuu T'ina next to Calgary and aren't poor.
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  #2064  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 1:23 AM
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In the early 1900s, Fort William had an extensive debate over whether or not to provide sewage service to a neighbourhood with a population density of over 10,000/sqmi. Most of the residents were Finns, Ukrainians, Poles and Italians, all considered sub-human at the time. The city decided that spending money to run a sewer line to the neighbourhood would "not be in the public interest", so they didn't do it. The neighbourhood had six foot deep ditches full of sewage in it, described by a Toronto reporter as "worse than the slums of India".

And then they gave $600,000 to a company that declared bankruptcy not long after.

The area got sewage service eventually, but there is a history in this part of the country of allowing third-world conditions exist near "the ruling class".

And while murder rates on US reservations are higher than those on Canada's reserves, the suicide rate here is significantly higher. Northern Ontario's aboriginal suicide rate is the highest suicide rate among any demographic in the world, including LGBT people. Some communities have rates of 200/100,000. Applied to Canada as a whole, that would be like North Bay killing itself annually. Less people die from smoking each year.

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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
When you consider the conditions they live in and the social impacts of that, Canada is actually quite fortunate that it's aboriginal population is not significantly larger than it is.
It's the fastest growing segment. The average age of aboriginals is little more than half the country in general. In Northern Ontario, almost all of the population growth is due to aboriginals. The problems are getting worse, and population growth rates are increasing exponentially. Thunder Bay was 8% aboriginal in 2001. We will be approximately 20% aboriginal in 2021. The problems that need solving, need solving now.
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  #2065  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 3:05 AM
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Originally Posted by vid View Post

And while murder rates on US reservations are higher than those on Canada's reserves, the suicide rate here is significantly higher. Northern Ontario's aboriginal suicide rate is the highest suicide rate among any demographic in the world, including LGBT people. Some communities have rates of 200/100,000. Applied to Canada as a whole, that would be like North Bay killing itself annually. Less people die from smoking each year.

It's the fastest growing segment. The average age of aboriginals is little more than half the country in general. In Northern Ontario, almost all of the population growth is due to aboriginals. The problems are getting worse, and population growth rates are increasing exponentially. Thunder Bay was 8% aboriginal in 2001. We will be approximately 20% aboriginal in 2021. The problems that need solving, need solving now.
You raise a very critical point. Canada is moving towards a situation where the aboriginal population could eventually be in percentage terms about the same as the African-American population. And the situation of Canada's aboriginals is actually *worse*, relative to the majority, than that of African-Americans was in the 1960s and 1970s.
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  #2066  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 3:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
You raise a very critical point. Canada is moving towards a situation where the aboriginal population could eventually be in percentage terms about the same as the African-American population. And the situation of Canada's aboriginals is actually *worse*, relative to the majority, than that of African-Americans was in the 1960s and 1970s.
What are the issues associated with natives anyway? Here in Vancouver there are very few, so it's rare to see them out on the street and you never really hear anything about the reserves.
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  #2067  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 3:28 AM
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What are the issues associated with natives anyway? Here in Vancouver there are very few, so it's rare to see them out on the street and you never really hear anything about the reserves.
Many reserves in Canada are basically third world milieus that happen to be located in one of the world's richest countries. If the population there continues to increase as rapidly as it has, many of these people will begin to migrate to cities in search of better living conditions (even though they may not necessarily find them). It has already happened in several cities on the Prairies and in northern Ontario. There are probably more than you think in Vancouver but you do not see them. Once the proportion starts to get similar to what you have in a place like Winnipeg it gets a lot harder to ignore. And Winnipeg does not have the highest murder rate in Canada most years by accident.
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  #2068  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 4:15 AM
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Many reserves in Canada are basically third world milieus that happen to be located in one of the world's richest countries. If the population there continues to increase as rapidly as it has, many of these people will begin to migrate to cities in search of better living conditions (even though they may not necessarily find them). It has already happened in several cities on the Prairies and in northern Ontario. There are probably more than you think in Vancouver but you do not see them. Once the proportion starts to get similar to what you have in a place like Winnipeg it gets a lot harder to ignore. And Winnipeg does not have the highest murder rate in Canada most years by accident.
Yeah, I was just gonna say, I know we have quite a few reserves throughout Metro Vancouver but you never hear, or see, horror stories like Winnipeg's north end. So you think it's not as much of a problem here simply because they're a smaller percentage of the city?
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  #2069  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 4:42 AM
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What are the issues associated with natives anyway? Here in Vancouver there are very few, so it's rare to see them out on the street and you never really hear anything about the reserves.
Being from Vancouver, you may have heard of Robert Pickton? He was a serial killer, and most of his victims were graduates of the residential school system.

So if you want to see more natives on the streets of your city, just go to Downtown Eastside. I guarantee you will see lots of them.
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  #2070  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 4:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
Being from Vancouver, you may have heard of Robert Pickton? He was a serial killer, and most of his victims were graduates of the residential school system.

So if you want to see more natives on the streets of your city, just go to Downtown Eastside. I guarantee you will see lots of them.
I've heard of him, just not any details like that.

That's sad to hear. Hopefully one day I'll be able to see natives living normally outside of the downtown eastside.
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  #2071  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 5:04 AM
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What are the issues associated with natives anyway? Here in Vancouver there are very few, so it's rare to see them out on the street.
I don't even know where to begin with this one
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  #2072  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 5:24 AM
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I don't even know where to begin with this one
Yeah, I'll admit it wasn't an easy question
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  #2073  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 6:19 AM
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If you don't see the natives in Vancouver it's because you shop/eat/work in the non-slum or low income areas. You won't see any in Rich/WV/NV/Westside/NS or even Burnaby or the Tri Cities.

Go to the Downtown Eastside or Whalley and they are the dominant ethnic group. The reason you didn't know the specifics of the Pickton case is because they were nearly all Native and drug addicted prostitute.................in Vancouver City Hall that means disposable.

I was in the DES recently for about 2 weeks and I would say a minimum of the area residents were Natives.
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  #2074  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 6:25 AM
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If you don't see the natives in Vancouver it's because you shop/eat/work in the non-slum or low income areas. You won't see any in Rich/WV/NV/Westside/NS or even Burnaby or the Tri Cities.

Go to the Downtown Eastside or Whalley and they are the dominant ethnic group. The reason you didn't know the specifics of the Pickton case is because they were nearly all Native and drug addicted prostitute.................in Vancouver City Hall that means disposable.

I was in the DES recently for about 2 weeks and I would say a minimum of the area residents were Natives.
Well I grew up in Richmond, live in Ladner and go to school at Langara so I really don't know much about areas outside this. What will happen to the native population at Whalley with all the gentrification going on over there?
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  #2075  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 4:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
If you don't see the natives in Vancouver it's because you shop/eat/work in the non-slum or low income areas. You won't see any in Rich/WV/NV/Westside/NS or even Burnaby or the Tri Cities.

Go to the Downtown Eastside or Whalley and they are the dominant ethnic group. The reason you didn't know the specifics of the Pickton case is because they were nearly all Native and drug addicted prostitute.................in Vancouver City Hall that means disposable.

I was in the DES recently for about 2 weeks and I would say a minimum of the area residents were Natives.
This sounds like you're blaming Vancouver's elected civic officials for what Robert Pickton did!
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  #2076  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2014, 1:13 AM
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Yeah, I was just gonna say, I know we have quite a few reserves throughout Metro Vancouver but you never hear, or see, horror stories like Winnipeg's north end. So you think it's not as much of a problem here simply because they're a smaller percentage of the city?
British Columbia isn't part of the same treaty system than most of Canada is part of, so First Nations in BC have more economic rights and better reserve locations. Your province put its reserves in the middles of cities; we put ours in swamps that can only be accessed by plane. Obviously, there are going to be significant economic differences between the two. Thunder Bay's reserve is no longer even directly accessible by bridge and it was cut out of the city; you have to drive for 15 minutes now to get to something that you can see from downtown.

There is also considerably more racism here, even though 60% of the native population in Canada is "average" (lower middle class) they suffer from higher unemployment rates, mainly because employers are less willing to hire them. When a white person does a bad job and then quits or is fired that's just chalked up as poor judgment in character; I'll hire someone better next time. When a native person does a bad job and then quits or is fired, management decided to avoid hiring native people and "will hire someone better next time". Basically a few bad apples are spoiling it for everybody because lots of (but not all) job creators here are middle aged, white racists. People complain about all the service sector jobs we've got these days but their hiring method (virtually anonymous, online submissions) is the only stepping stone many native teens have into the employment world here.

Too many native people are coming here to find a better life and not finding it, because too many people here don't want them to, and on top of that, they're dealing with health issues related to past traumas and abuse, substance use, poverty, and a lack of education. Schools on reserves receive half as much funding as schools off reserves. The Federal Government has taken a step toward rectifying this but the law still has issues. So even if native kids finish school at home, they're often still a few steps back compared to non-reserve students (native or non-native alike).

A quick summary of the situation would be, native people have their economic rights curbed in a way that makes it appear to the average citizen (aka taxpayer) they're receiving extraordinary benefits, so they suffer while people think they're pampered. A lot of things that they interpret as greed or corruption are simply the logical approach to an issue within the context of the Indian Act. In a few cases in Northern Ontario, there are reserves with broken water systems (many reserves are so small and located in such poorly drained areas that well water isn't an option) and instead of spending several thousand to repair and staff them, they spend 10 times the amount on bottled water. The reason this situation makes more sense is that the laws regarding their expenditures puts a repair to infrastructure solely on the band's shoulders, and contrary to popular belief those are stretched pretty tight. The latter option, importing hundreds of tonnes (literally) of bottled water is considered "emergency response" and AANDC doesn't seem to mind forking out the half million per year to pay for the water and transporting it to the north by plane, 6 cases at a time.

This is simply the bizarre reality they're living in. As you know I can go on at length about this stuff.
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  #2077  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2014, 1:17 AM
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This sounds like you're blaming Vancouver's elected civic officials for what Robert Pickton did!
Native women are considered "disposable" nationwide, not just in Vancouver. A lot of the many hundreds of missing and murdered aboriginal women were kidnapped or killed outside of BC. With broken family structures and prevalent poverty and homelessness, there isn't as much of a political pressure on police and government to solve the problems associated with it.

For all the talk about being "tough on crime", Stephen Harper doesn't seem too interested in solving these ones.
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  #2078  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2014, 1:27 AM
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Thanks a lot vid for the long, detailed explanation. It definitely opened my eyes.
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  #2079  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2014, 3:47 AM
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This sounds like you're blaming Vancouver's elected civic officials for what Robert Pickton did!
They didn't hold the gun or encourage it but they simply made it a hell of a lot easier for him to get away with it by completely ignoring it.

The prostitutes of the area had been telling the police for years about the Picton farm but to no avail. The police finally decided to look into it so they paid him a visit and just talked to him, that's it. The city flatly refused to offer any form of reward as they kept insisting that they were just "missing" Eventually they finally offered a stellar $10,000 after 70 of them had been sent to the slaughter house.

Please don't misunderstand, the City didn't finally put up a reward due to guilt or even any desire to stop the killings ..........oops, I meant missing..........women because they were after all poor, drug addicted prostitutes and Native to boot which made them even more disposable. No, the city finally offered a reward because in the mid-90s there were a slew of expensive cars being stolen on the very tony Westside and needless to say when that happens the city jumped into action and offered a reward and only after that was disclosed were they shamed into being forced to offer the same amount of reward for the largest mass murderer in North American history.

I'm being very serious here too, this was the only reason they finally put a reward and Vancouver's "missing" women were beginning to make some international news so the province started to push the city on it until they finally created a task force and "discovered" the Picton farm which the prostitutes had being telling them about for over a decade.

The city didn't kill them but their supreme indifference let the killing continue.
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  #2080  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2014, 4:38 PM
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Thunder Bay Police have reported that they have arrested someone in connection with a possible homicide in the north end. According to witnesses the incident happened inside an apartment.

So naturally everyone is upset over the lack of juicy details. We must know all the names! Stop withholding our stories!!
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