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  #201  
Old Posted May 7, 2012, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by telyou View Post
And what does a real estate lawyer have anything to do with income tax?



Just because you clearly do not understand what type of transaction she's implying does not make it false. These types of transactions are occurring however, they are not illegal by Canadian law as far as i know. A tax lawyer would be better at answering this. And where on earth did she say criminal activities? Do you even understand this sentence "Many developers include in the agreement of purchase the right to “assign” this right to buy at a fixed price". This has been going on in Vancouver as well for a while. She's not implying drug money is buying Toronto condos. However, that type of transaction would be illegal in Australia and other nations.
The article has been edited. - You know papers do that when they get blasted for trying to start shit. She has nothing to back up her claims so she stated the money was coming from criminal activities, she or the NP got called out on it. And the article was edited.


BTW:

Yes, I know what assignment means.
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  #202  
Old Posted May 7, 2012, 10:49 PM
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Developers have no fear of Toronto Condo bubble

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle2425295/

- Developer Says Toronto is at the NEXT Stage for City Building Evolution

Quote:
“From an urban fabric point of view, Toronto is unique in the world,” Mr. Diamond said in an interview. “It’s one of the few cities that has both a very healthy core and low-rise single-family homes almost within walking distance of the core.”

- Developers believe that instead of building outwards, Toronto has now switched gears and is building upwards..

Quote:
More than 6,000 newly built condos sold in Toronto in the first quarter, the highest number ever for the January-to-March period, research firm Urbanation said Monday. But the average number of sales per project was down, as builders unveil more new projects every week. There were 338 active condo projects in Toronto in the first quarter, a record high.
- Immigration will drive the future condo boom in Toronto


- Twelve years ago, most of the new housing in Toronto was low-rise homes. Now most of it is high-rise towers. Construction of single homes is at all-time lows.

Quote:
Immigration trends suggest that the Toronto census metropolitan area will need between 42,500 and 52,000 new dwellings a year. Only 28,500 were delivered last year, Mr. Diamond noted. Vacancy rates remain low.
Read the article here:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle2425295/
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  #203  
Old Posted May 7, 2012, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by caltrane74 View Post
Developers have no fear of Toronto Condo bubble

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle2425295/
It's not even a news article... it's an advertisement from a worried developer.

When 80% of condo sales are made to speculators - they better be worried. This wont end well.
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  #204  
Old Posted May 7, 2012, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
It's not even a news article... it's an advertisement from a worried developer.

When 80% of condo sales are made to speculators - they better be worried. This wont end well.
There are always two sides to every storey. In this case you have the Diane Francis side, and the Developer side.

Score count:

DEVELOPERS 1

DIANE FRANCIS (NP) 0 /


I post both sides of the storey, so you can keep track of which side is winning.
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  #205  
Old Posted May 7, 2012, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
It's not even a news article... it's an advertisement from a worried developer.

When 80% of condo sales are made to speculators - they better be worried. This wont end well.
Where exactly are you getting this "80% of condo sales made to speculators" figure from?
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  #206  
Old Posted May 7, 2012, 10:59 PM
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Will a 40% land tax cool, the housing market in Toronto?

http://www.condo.ca/profiles/blogs/s...to-real-estate
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  #207  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 1:45 AM
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I think what these critics don't understand is there has been an extreme paradigm shift in Canada. Urban living is now not only acceptable by society, it is attractive and highly desirable. It started in Vancouver in the 90s and has since spread like wildfire across the country, and morphed into something phenomenal in Toronto. The critics see highrise growth and automatically equate it with speculation, because in their minds, clearly nobody would actually want to live in a shoebox in the sky aside from renters with no other choice. As it turns out, many people are willing to sacrifice space for a good location, and not only in just downtown.
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  #208  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 2:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Where exactly are you getting this "80% of condo sales made to speculators" figure from?
The figure has been posted on different sites, and insiders have confirmed it. I'll see if I can find them again.

Here's a new article which shows that many are sitting empty:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle2426038/

Quote:
CMHC estimates that roughly 25 per cent of condominiums in the Greater Toronto Area are sold but sitting vacant -- shades of Miami at the height of its collapsed condo bubble in 2007. Other analysts say the 25 per cent figure may be too low.
These are just empty... many speculators have purchased and are renting out.

But you can see the problem with your own eyes. Look at how many lights are off in these condos in the evening... night after night. The population can't support the number of condos that are being built in Toronto.
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  #209  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 2:02 PM
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Originally Posted by rbt View Post
When a person buys a property they are liable for the capital gains of the seller if the government doesn't get their cut.

I've never heard of this. Are you sure? Were talking about capital gains taxes not property taxes. Your average real estate lawyer knows nothing about capital gains and other income taxes. And as far as i know tax lawyesr do not get involved in real estate transactions even if they are investment units.

Since the buyer's lawyer represents the buyers best interests; one of the jobs a lawyer does before/at closing is ensure the sellers taxes have been paid or will be paid (person has residence in Canada).

But Diane's article is about foreign investors.

I didn't mean it was false. I just don't see how it can occur without another party doing something either not in their own best interests or a chargeable offense.

That post was meant for Caltrane who immediately attacked her article. I like Caltrane's optimism on Toronto and he shouldn't stop. Canadians have this quiet defeatist attitude and having Caltrane boasting non-stop is refreshing.

Sure, assignments are fairly common. I've even done 1 myself. What is described isn't a normal assignment because there is no papertrail with the buyer's lawyer (who typically cuts cheques) or with the bank (who wants to know why customer buying a $200k unit needs $300k).

The way units are moving prices have been changing drastically. When someone buys a unit for $X and sells it on assignment 8 months later with a profit of 80K because that's what units are now going for all of a sudden shows the market is a unstable.

Also, normally in an assignment the original buyer is responsible for closing the contract if the new buyer backs out. If there is no papertrail of the transaction then the developer is waiving the right to enforce that.


All I can come up with is the buyer pays for the difference plus deposit in advance out of cash without taking a loan. It's not very often that a person can come up with a 30% to 50% downpayment months to years before the closing date.
30-50% deposits is normal for investors whether they're foreign or domestic.
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  #210  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 2:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
The figure has been posted on different sites, and insiders have confirmed it. I'll see if I can find them again.

Here's a new article which shows that many are sitting empty:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle2426038/



These are just empty... many speculators have purchased and are renting out.

But you can see the problem with your own eyes. Look at how many lights are off in these condos in the evening... night after night. The population can't support the number of condos that are being built in Toronto.
Well 25% is not 80%.

And Toronto is not Miami.

Do you ever think, you'll ever be able to buy a condo in Toronto for 100 grand? - (A condo in a 40 year old building in North York or Etobicoke doesn't count)
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Last edited by caltrane74; May 8, 2012 at 2:21 PM.
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  #211  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 6:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caltrane74 View Post
Well 25% is not 80%.
First... it could be and probably is more than 25% sitting empty
Secondly - a speculator also includes those who buy condos and rents them out... it doesn't have to be a condo that sits empty. 80%+ is accurate.
Third - there are a buttload more condos coming on the market in 2012, which means even more will sit empty.

Quote:
Do you ever think, you'll ever be able to buy a condo in Toronto for 100 grand? - (A condo in a 40 year old building in North York or Etobicoke doesn't count)
It doesn't have to go down to 100k for it to be a nightmare. Even a 25% drop in price will leave A LOT of people with negative equity. That's the point... many people will have thrown their money away on the fantasy that housing/condo prices only go up.

Many will be stuck with condos they're paying a mortgage and monthly condo fees on which will either sit empty or be rented to people for less than they're paying to keep it. I already know a few people who are paying rent to live in a condo in which their landlord is essentially subsidizing them (ie. they're losing money each month renting it out).
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  #212  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 6:57 PM
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Edmonton rolling along again

Spring home construction hits a post-boom high

Starts up 27 per cent from a year ago in April and 36 per cent in the first four months

BY BILL MAH, EDMONTON JOURNAL MAY 8, 2012 12:02 PM

A crane lowers the finished roof onto a new home under construction near 215th Street north of 45th Avenue.
Photograph by: Bruce Edwards , Edmonton Journal
EDMONTON - Edmonton-region homebuilders are much busier than they were a year ago, with housing starts in April up 27.6 per cent from 2011.

April starts in the Edmonton census metropolitan area totalled 967 units, up from 758 units the previous year, the Canada Mortgage Housing Corp. said Tuesday.

In the single-detached market, which tends to be less volatile than the multi-family sector, builders started 493 units in April across the region. That’s up 13 per cent from 436 single starts a year earlier.

For Edmonton alone, builders broke ground on 313 singles in April, up nine per cent year-over-year.

“This is the fifth consecutive month where starts were higher on a year-over-year basis,” said Christina Butchart, CMHC’s senior market analyst for Edmonton.

Multi-family starts in the CMA in April rose 47 per cent year-over-year to 474 units.

“With 1,596 units to the end of April, multi-family starts across the Edmonton CMA were almost 50 per cent higher than the first four months of 2011, accounting for half of all housing starts so far this year,” Butchart said.

For the year to date, total housing starts in the Edmonton CMA jumped 36.5 per cent to 3,172, up from 2,323 for the first four months of 2011.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...381/story.html
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  #213  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 6:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
First... it could be and probably is more than 25% sitting empty
Secondly - a speculator also includes those who buy condos and rents them out... it doesn't have to be a condo that sits empty. 80%+ is accurate.
Third - there are a buttload more condos coming on the market in 2012, which means even more will sit empty.
.

If you're renting the unit out, you're not speculating.

(speculators are only in it for the quick flip)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
Many will be stuck with condos they're paying a mortgage and monthly condo fees on which will either sit empty or be rented to people for less than they're paying to keep it. I already know a few people who are paying rent to live in a condo in which their landlord is essentially subsidizing them (ie. they're losing money each month renting it out).
If as you and most suggest, these condos investors are paying cash for these condos (which is the consensus, they are not losing any money renting their units out)

Also note: If you're speculating you don't rent the unit out. (those are investors...)
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  #214  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 6:59 PM
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I find this topic is getting old overall. There is truth to the saying if you say something long enough it will eventually come true. I've heard about housing bubble for 10 years now. Existence is cyclical so eventually prices WILL come down in areas.

I mean we're going to have an Earthquake here in metro vancouver eventually. If people started speculating that it will be next month, if they say it long enough as the years go by, it will EVENTUALLY come true. My issue with the topic is when the Earthquake does happen those people will say "I TOLD YOU SO!" like they had some godlike ability at prediction.

Same with these real-estate bubbles. People can jump up and down touting how much schooling, education, analysis, statistics, etc. they have at their disposal but the truth is it's all just a best guess and that reality dictates eventually prices will correct/adjust/come down just as after that happens they will go up again.

So it's not some sort of Oracle level prediction here.

It just urks me when markets actually react and sometimes react harshly to these "educated guesses" like they are absolute fact. I was told by 5 banks last year that interest rates would be going up "Soon" because all market indicators point that direction.

Um hello? We're 1 year later... ... oh wait SOON could mean tomorrow or in bank terms in 50 years. They will EVENTUALLY be correct, but I just don't want to hear them saying "SEE WE ARE ALL KNOWING!!!!!"
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  #215  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 7:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caltrane74 View Post
If you're renting the unit out, you're not speculating.

(speculators are only in it for the quick flip)



If as you and most suggest, these condos investors are paying cash for these condos (which is the consensus, they are not losing any money renting their units out)

Also note: If you're speculating you don't rent the unit out. (those are investors...)
On that note, even if people aren't paying cash outright for a condo, someone in the business of renting a unit out HAS TO take into account the fact that sometimes the market will dictate that they eat a bit of cost. That's why someone seriously investing in renting out units needs to hold enough inventory to balance things out.

You never want to be renting out a unit for free and eating 100% of the costs but you have to take into account that for periods of time you may need to eat costs. Hell if your renter leaves and you can't rent a unit out for 5 months you eat 100% x 5 times and your budget needs to be able to absorb that.

Any long term investor knows though that markets will typically go back up and you need to be able to simply ride the wave up to 5 years. I always take into account when getting a property if I can handle 60% of the total monthly cost for the unit for 2 years. So if rental with strata and property tax is $900 a month for example, I need to be able to eat $540 a month for up to 2 years or in essence eat $13,000 or that period.

If that would push me over budget then I re-think the investment.

Same thing when people get variable mortgages. You get a mortgage at 2% financing, the first thing you shouldn't do is jump up and down happy and elated. The first thing you should do is recalculate your mortgage at 8% and see if you can still afford it. If you can then great! If not then maybe you should lock in to fixed and pay the little bit extra.

People too often think 1 month down the road and not long term.

Speculators as the quote stated look for a quick flip. That's a lot more risky and those people need to be prepared to get burned once in a while. I have a friend who purchased a flip property a number of years back and ended up needing to hang onto it for 5 years before he could sell. It was unrentable so that was 5 years of mortgage he had to ate. Ultimately in the end when the area/market corrected, he was able to resell the property and had a healthy profit overall after costs were factored in, but it was still quite stressful to him at the time. It happens though.

Long term investors on the other hand need to be able to hold something long term. If you can't you either don't invest or you handle it differently and ride it shorter term then flip is asap to build capital acknowledging the higher risks in that.

That's at least how I conduct business.
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  #216  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 7:34 PM
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But you can see the problem with your own eyes. Look at how many lights are off in these condos in the evening... night after night. The population can't support the number of condos that are being built in Toronto.
I've heard this argument many times and it has to be the most ridiculous argument a person can ever use. To state a condo has only a few of the units occupied because there are only a few lights on at night is beyond ridiculous. On monday to fridays i'm at my condo one night a week between 6-10. And if i am in my condo and watching tv or a movie i usually have all the lights off except for a floor lamp which is dimmed. Most people who live in the city are out at nights. They don't stay home watching tv like fat turds in the burbs. They have lives.
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  #217  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 8:25 PM
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Most people who live in the city are out at nights. They don't stay home watching tv like fat turds in the burbs. They have lives.
There's that myopia and self-absorbed condescension that sets us urban dwellers apart!
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  #218  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 10:18 PM
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Yeah, and who would want to spend anymore time in a 500 sq. ft. place than they absolutely had too with all the restaurant and entertainment options around them?... Those fat no-life turds in the burbs have an unfair advantage... they've got space! Imagine... 1,800 sq. ft. of living space - outrageous. Just don't think that someone might be a little jealous.
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  #219  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by telyou View Post
I've heard this argument many times and it has to be the most ridiculous argument a person can ever use. To state a condo has only a few of the units occupied because there are only a few lights on at night is beyond ridiculous. On monday to fridays i'm at my condo one night a week between 6-10. And if i am in my condo and watching tv or a movie i usually have all the lights off except for a floor lamp which is dimmed. Most people who live in the city are out at nights. They don't stay home watching tv like fat turds in the burbs. They have lives.
That's why I mention that you look for lights over an extended period of time. It's not scientific, but it has merit. But really, you can ask people who currently live in the condo building and just ask. I've done that with many - there are MANY empty units. It's not exactly a secret. I know people who are looking into buying a condo in Toronto - and the amount of units available to them is so staggering (even within a single building) that it's tough for them to make a decision.

It's not different in Canada... or Vancouver... or Toronto. Low interest rates and greed will turn this into a mess.
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  #220  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Waterlooson View Post
Yeah, and who would want to spend anymore time in a 500 sq. ft. place than they absolutely had too with all the restaurant and entertainment options around them?... Those fat no-life turds in the burbs have an unfair advantage... they've got space! Imagine... 1,800 sq. ft. of living space - outrageous. Just don't think that someone might be a little jealous.
Yep! Nothing more exciting than sitting around in a large room and soaking up its expansiveness! Well, nothing except of course moving between a variety of large rooms and experiencing their expansiveness consecutively in rapid succession.

Whoohoo! Partaaaay!
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