Define "Suburb" (Winnipeg)

[jimsabo21]

Hi. I'd like to get everyones take on what a "suburb" actually is, or what you consider it to be? In large cities, it's very easy since the true city actually ends, and a new one begins. For example, San Francisco is barely 500K, yet the metro area is 8mm. Clearly, there are many suburbs appended to the city that have caused massive sprawl. Same goes in Vancouver; Surrey, Langley, Richmond are all distinct suburbs of Vancouver, yet nothing within the city proper would be defined as a "suburb".

What about a city like Winnipeg, whereby every neighborhood is within the city proper? Obviously, nobody would consider Wolseley, Point Douglas or St-Boniface a "suburb", but where do you draw the line? Is it only new developments (Sage Creek, Lindenwoods, Whiteridge, Waverly West)? What about old areas that are actually further from the city core than a new development? For example, new houses off Main St. near Chief Peguis are significantly closer to downtown (both distance and time of commute) than a 60 year old neighborhood in Fort Garry.

Is it about lot sizes? Some areas of Crescentwood have 130 ft frontage and 6000 sq ft houses (very large footprint). Nobody would consider "Ruskin Row" or the "East / Middle / West Gate" as a suburb, yet those pockets probably have the lowest density of any neighborhood in Winnipeg. Is that OK because it's always been there? Same goes with Wellington Cres, North River Heights, Tuxedo. Large lots, low density. Some of these areas make Sage Creek look like Tokyo by comparison.

I'm just curious as to what you define a "suburb" in Winnipeg, and a bit of reasoning behind it.

[bomberjet]

That's a toughy. I think Winnipeg swallowed up all the suburbs during the Unicity thing. East. St. Paul to me is a suburb. But living in Garden City or Lindenwoods is a suburban lifestyle. Subjective thing.

Maybe we need to define what is urban, then sub-urban could be better defined. Urban to me would be living downtown, working downtown, shopping downtown. High density, centralized, core location. Suburban would be anything beyond this? I think so.

[Cyro]

Form the purely defined definition sense..

sub·urb (sbûrb)
n.
1. A usually residential area or community outlying a city.
2. suburbs The usually residential region around a major city; the environs.

Wikipedia defines it as:
A suburb is a residential area or a mixed use area, either existing as part of a city outside of the urban core or as a politically separate residential community within commuting distance of a city.
Source

Very safe answer but it is a starting point ^ ^ but not detailing what you asked. Suburbia I believe would be an area that has less overall density than a cities defined core. I live in a neighbor hood with large lots but restaurants/buisnesses a few steps away. I feel like a "suburbanite", but then I don't? Maybe an area that is strictly housing, with no near by amenities? It's hard to define but many will try. I lived in Tuxedo off Roblin felt suburban, I lived in Osborne village and did not feel suburban?

[esquire]

Good question. The old inner suburbs that grew up around streetcar lines and have strong urban characteristics are what I'd consider urban in nature (think of the West End, Old St. James, River Heights, Old St. Boniface, most of EK and the North End).

I would say any neighbourhood that has a lower density and was built mainly around personal automobile use (basically starting in between WWI and WII) is suburban in nature. Windsor Park, Westwood, Fort Garry, West Kildonan, North Kildonan would fit into this group. Some older areas could go either way but definitely anything post-WWII is suburban in my books.

Anything outside the City of Winnipeg municipal boundary is exurban.

People often use the urban/suburban/exurban shorthand which is a bit better suited to large cities like Toronto. In a smaller city like Winnipeg there is a finer line between urban and suburban... many older neighbourhoods share characteristics of the urban and suburban.

[Riverman]

I would say the old Winnipeg prior to Unicity is urban, the rest suburban. Downtown, North and West End and Elmwood are the "old city".

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Riverman

I would say the old Winnipeg prior to Unicity is urban, the rest suburban. Downtown, North and West End and Elmwood are the "old city".

^River Heights too.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by Bdog

^River Heights too.

Yes, forgot about that.

My opinion is kind of flawed though, I find it hard to call old St. B a burb.

[vid]

In North America, you can consider pretty much any neighborhood where the streets aren't built on a regular grid to be suburban. I consider suburbs to be areas that are distant or disconnected from the city centre, a place where all the local bus routes go to a meeting point that isn't downtown. If you live closer to a large shopping mall or outlying employment node, you're probably in a suburb.

Suburbs can be old, too. The neighbourhood I grew up in in Thunder Bay was laid out in 1913, but it was still low density, car oriented and about as far from downtown as you can get. It wasn't even in the city proper until 1970.

Winnipeg and St. Boniface are like Minneapolis and St. Paul. Neither is a suburb, they're both core cities and have suburbs that grew into each other and mesh together. Thunder Bay is the same with Port Arthur and Fort William, both have downtowns, inner cities and suburbs. If there were two cities that grew up beside each other and developed at the same time, you should probably consider both of them to be core cities, especially when they're right beside each other. Downtown St. Boniface isn't that much more removed from downtown Winnipeg than North Main Street is. One is separated by a river, the other by a rail yard, they're both at least inner city.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

That's a toughy. I think Winnipeg swallowed up all the suburbs during the Unicity thing. East. St. Paul to me is a suburb. But living in Garden City or Lindenwoods is a suburban lifestyle. Subjective thing.

Maybe we need to define what is urban, then sub-urban could be better defined. Urban to me would be living downtown, working downtown, shopping downtown. High density, centralized, core location. Suburban would be anything beyond this? I think so.

Superimpose the 1971 Winnipeg city limits on a 2013 map of Winnipeg. Then again, places like Old St.Boniface, Old St.James, and Brooklands would hardly be considered suburbs.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

Superimpose the 1971 Winnipeg city limits on a 2013 map of Winnipeg. Then again, places like Old St.Boniface, Old St.James, and Brooklands would hardly be considered suburbs.

My original answer was going to be "the old City of Winnipeg is urban" but yes, there are definitely urban parts to the other old municipalities.

Here is my quick and dirty and hopefully not too arbitrary take on what is urban in Winnipeg.

The area inside the red lines are to me, undisputably urban. This obviously goes well past downtown, but includes neighbourhoods that have dense areas with walkable streets and local commercial strips. You could live in these areas without a car and not have much trouble (even though some areas in that zone are better suited to a car-free lifestyle than others).

The areas inside the blue lines are what I'd consider the "semi-urban" areas that, while generally suburban in nature still have some pretty strong urban characteristics. This mostly captures the older suburbs or ones that are dense enough to support a lot of local amenities, e.g. the Henderson strip, old St. James and south River Heights.

The areas outside the coloured lines are what I'd consider to be suburban, ones where you will more or less need a car to get by (or be prepared to put up with a lot of inconveniences).

[IMG][/IMG]

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by vid

In North America, you can consider pretty much any neighborhood where the streets aren't built on a regular grid to be suburban. I consider suburbs to be areas that are distant or disconnected from the city centre, a place where all the local bus routes go to a meeting point that isn't downtown. If you live closer to a large shopping mall or outlying employment node, you're probably in a suburb.

Suburbs can be old, too. The neighbourhood I grew up in in Thunder Bay was laid out in 1913, but it was still low density, car oriented and about as far from downtown as you can get. It wasn't even in the city proper until 1970.

Winnipeg and St. Boniface are like Minneapolis and St. Paul. Neither is a suburb, they're both core cities and have suburbs that grew into each other and mesh together. Thunder Bay is the same with Port Arthur and Fort William, both have downtowns, inner cities and suburbs. If there were two cities that grew up beside each other and developed at the same time, you should probably consider both of them to be core cities, especially when they're right beside each other. Downtown St. Boniface isn't that much more removed from downtown Winnipeg than North Main Street is. One is separated by a river, the other by a rail yard, they're both at least inner city.

I like this distiction about Winnipeg and St. B. But I think you are mixing up "suburban" and "sprawl". I don't think that design has anything to do with what is urban vs. what is suburban personally. I think if you went by this grid-pattern definition Transcona would throw you for a loop -- is it a suburb of Winnipeg, or it's own city? If it's own City why do most commute to downtown Winnipeg?

If I were to define suburban I think it would start exactly like Riverman said, all of old Winnipeg, but would include St. B exactly for the reason that Vid stated above.

[h0twired]

For me suburbs are where people are living when they work in the city but pay property taxes to a different RM.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by h0twired

For me suburbs are where people are living when they work in the city but pay property taxes to a different RM.

You can live a 100% suburban lifestyle totally within the boundaries of the City of Winnipeg.

For instance, take a person who lives in Sage Creek, works in a building at the U of M Smartpark, does most of their shopping at St. Vital, Kildonan Place and surrounding big-boxes, and drives to and from those places. The only time they come downtown is to attend an event at the MTS Centre, and they haven't been on a bus since they were students.

Sure this person lives, works and shops in the same municipality, but that is still a 100% suburban existence.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by esquire

You can live a 100% suburban lifestyle totally within the boundaries of the City of Winnipeg.

For instance, take a person who lives in Sage Creek, works in a building at the U of M Smartpark, does most of their shopping at St. Vital, Kildonan Place and surrounding big-boxes, and drives to and from those places. The only time they come downtown is to attend an event at the MTS Centre, and they haven't been on a bus since they were students.

Sure this person lives, works and shops in the same municipality, but that is still a 100% suburban existence.

I have a co-worker who is maybe 22 or 23. Her father works as an engineer at KGS Group and her mother is stay-at-home and they live in Linden Woods. She actually told me that until she got this job she had never been north of the Assiniboine river except to go to the airport...

[Riverman]

When I worked at CN Transcona in the late 70s there were several guys that hadn't left Transcona.

[bomberjet]

Ming boggling.

[Cyro]

www.canada.com


www.docstoc.com


Suburb ^^ Last image - Sums it up.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by steveosnyder

I have a co-worker who is maybe 22 or 23. Her father works as an engineer at KGS Group and her mother is stay-at-home and they live in Linden Woods. She actually told me that until she got this job she had never been north of the Assiniboine river except to go to the airport...

Did you actually quiz her on this unlikely claim? She'd never been to the Forks or on a school trip to the Museum? A lot of people have a pretty hazy notion of geography.

On the other hand, other than MTS Centre, the Forks and the Airport, I don't entirely see why an ordinary person living in south Winnipeg would need to go north of the Assiniboine anyway. South Winnipeg is so big and self-sufficient now that it could be its own city. It would probably have 75% of the residential tax base. Exchange the Bombers for the Jets and we'd be all set.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Did you actually quiz her on this unlikely claim? She'd never been to the Forks or on a school trip to the Museum? A lot of people have a pretty hazy notion of geography.

Haha, I was thinking the same thing. Must have never been to a play, concert, or Imax show. Or for that matter, ever played an organized sport or activity growing up...

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Haha, I was thinking the same thing. Must have never been to a play, concert, or Imax show. Or for that matter, ever played an organized sport or activity growing up...

22 year old female that has never been to Polo Park?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.