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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
You're being awfully dismissive. So when San Francisco, New York, or the US prospers its because of US ingenuity, hard work, policy, innovation, etc. Has it occurred to you that when Toronto, Vancouver, or Canada prospers it's because of Canadian ingenuity, hard work, policy, innovation, etc.?

I agree that having a dud like Trump helps Canada but Canada would be booming with or without a Trump presidency.
It's sort of like saying the Raptors' victory is more about the Warriors' injuries than the Raptors themselves doing well .

When Toronto (or Canada) does well, it's about Toronto's would-be "rivals" or "competitors" slipping or messing up, rather than its own credit.

Canada/Toronto is never its own player, only the puppet of other forces beyond its control, whether it's Trump's immigration policy, China's money and foreign investment, or whatever.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
And immigration to the US is around 1,000,000 per year.

Dallas, which is growing as fast as Toronto, completes 30,000 multi family units per year; but because demand is more tied in to local incomes and not global money flows, you get 7 story mid rise apartments instead of condo towers.

With lax money laundering laws, Canadian real estate will continue to be a safe haven for various global capital flows for the the foreseeable future. They pioneered this model with Vancouver, Toronto got into the game later and now even Montreal is seeing chinese investment, no questions asked...
Money laundering is probably responsible for 1% of the demand compared to the other factors I mentioned
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 11:59 PM
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Becoming merely a safe haven for global capital makes you Miami or Dubai, not Silicon Valley or Boston.

It’s not just Canada—International investment amid a concerted effort to attract wealthy immigrants from Asia is driving demand for high end condo towers in Australian and new zealand cities too. Let’s be honest about the fundamental forces at work here.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
You're being awfully dismissive of Toronto's accomplishments. So when San Francisco, New York, or the US prospers its because of US ingenuity, hard work, policy, innovation, etc.
Actually a lot of it was because Europe dropped the ball and was busy slaughtering each other for much of the 20th century. The US took the lead decisively between the world wars. See I don't mind admitting that

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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Has it occurred to you that when Toronto, Vancouver, or Canada prospers it's because of Canadian ingenuity, hard work, policy, innovation, etc.?
Of course, these cities have been booming long before Trump took office. But when it comes to the quantity and quality of ambitious and upwardly mobile immigrants that Canada is able to choose from, the presence of Trump can only help Canada.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Becoming merely a safe haven for global capital makes you Miami or Dubai, not Silicon Valley or Boston.

It’s not just Canada—International investment amid a concerted effort to attract wealthy immigrants from Asia is driving demand for high end condo towers in Australian and new zealand cities too. Let’s be honest about the fundamental forces at work here.
Most of what Torinto builds is not for the high end though. Condos in the city have always been for the low end and middle class. Condos are the only affordable part of the Toronto market. Wealthy people buy houses Middle class buys condos and the poor rent
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Actually a lot of it was because Europe dropped the ball and was busy slaughtering each other for much of the 20th century. The US took the lead decisively between the world wars. See I don't mind admitting that



Of course, these cities have been booming long before Trump took office. But when it comes to the quantity and quality of ambitious and upwardly mobile immigrants that Canada is able to choose from, the presence of Trump can only help Canada.
Canada will take the same amount of immigrant with or without trump. Once the number of successful applicants are reach, that's it for the year. We don't take in more because of US policies
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 12:43 AM
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Legal or Legal and Illegal?
Just legal. Just border patrol apprehensions have averaged like 100,000 a month. And add in people overstaying their visas, and people who cross the border but don't get caught, I wouldn't be surprised if our immigrant numbers are somewhere around 2.5 million a year.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
It's sort of like saying the Raptors' victory is more about the Warriors' injuries than the Raptors themselves doing well .

When Toronto (or Canada) does well, it's about Toronto's would-be "rivals" or "competitors" slipping or messing up, rather than its own credit.

Canada/Toronto is never its own player, only the puppet of other forces beyond its control, whether it's Trump's immigration policy, China's money and foreign investment, or whatever.
I think its more like many Americans attribute everything on Earth(that's bad) to Trump. Our immigration levels haven't even gone down since hes been president, but it doesn't stop people making bold statements as truth. They think if there is a storm in Kenya, its because of Trump. I wouldn't read too far into it.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 1:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
It's sort of like saying the Raptors' victory is more about the Warriors' injuries than the Raptors themselves doing well .
Well, it's kinda both, in both cases. The Raptors are great, but probably wouldn't be champions if the Warriors were healthy. Toronto is super successful, but obviously wouldn't be as successful if the U.S. had the same immigration rules as Canada or if Montreal were English speaking.

Toronto isn't exactly a model of public policy or good government. They had Rob Ford. Detroit has a fantastic mayor, but isn't exactly booming. NYC has a terrible mayor and city council but is quite healthy. DC had Marion Barry and is very successful. SF is governed by crazies but booming. There are macro trends bigger than whether or not the mayor is a hack.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 1:24 AM
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It's funny some people were saying Warriors were better without Durant and they were widely considered the favourites to win the finals but Raptors beat them anyways, same way they swept them 2-0 during the regular season when Durant was playing and Kawhi was not.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 1:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Canada will take the same amount of immigrant with or without trump. Once the number of successful applicants are reach, that's it for the year. We don't take in more because of US policies
True, there's way more demand than available openings in both the U.S. and Canada so the numbers are completely unrelated - each of the two countries chooses to take as many as they want to every year.

About two-thirds of Canadians want to reduce the numbers we take in, though. So the growth we've seen may not continue at the same pace in the future. (This link just got shared earlier by someone in the Federal Politics discussion thread: )

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/poll-s...vels-1.4468916

Last edited by lio45; Jun 17, 2019 at 2:13 AM.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 1:44 AM
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Except no one was seriously claiming the Warriors were better than Durant. And six of the Warriors top seven players weren't healthy; it wasn't just Durant.

That doesn't mean they don't deserve the championship, but yeah, injuries matter. The Pistons had a championship against the Lakers where every Lakers star was hurt. Still counts.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 3:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Most of what Torinto builds is not for the high end though. Condos in the city have always been for the low end and middle class. Condos are the only affordable part of the Toronto market. Wealthy people buy houses Middle class buys condos and the poor rent
That's what dc_denizen does not understand. He believes if it weren't for foreign capital highrise condos would not have been built in Vancouver or Toronto at all.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 3:22 AM
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Originally Posted by vanman View Post
That's what dc_denizen does not understand. He believes if it weren't for foreign capital highrise condos would not have been built in Vancouver or Toronto at all.
I know,
compared to the other factors I mentioned, foreign capital is a minuscule factor to why both Vancouver and Toronto build so many highrises.
In fact, both Toronto and Vancouver should have been building at twice the rate they did to better meet the demand in both markets for housing
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  #35  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 3:53 AM
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Looking at the data,
no other city in North America seems close to the 100 mark (150m+ Built/Under Construction)

New York City: 318
Chicago: 133
Toronto: 101
Panama City: 65
Miami: 57
Houston: 37
Mexico City: 33
Los Angeles: 33
San Francisco: 28
Seattle: 23
Boston: 23
Dallas: 22
Calgary: 20
Atlanta: 20

Every other city has less than 20, 150m+ skyscrapers.

Last edited by Nite; Jun 17, 2019 at 2:26 PM.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 4:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Except no one was seriously claiming the Warriors were better than Durant. And six of the Warriors top seven players weren't healthy; it wasn't just Durant.

That doesn't mean they don't deserve the championship, but yeah, injuries matter. The Pistons had a championship against the Lakers where every Lakers star was hurt. Still counts.
I agree.The GSW's were definitely not healthy.That's sports..Klay Thompson is a 3 point shooting machine, so it sucked for them seeing him go down again after coming back.
We can include an asterix beside 75% (or more) of championship wins if we looked hard enough.

I'm really hoping somebody posts some pics of the Raptors parade tomorrow, and also throw in "a typical Friday night" in Toronto like some others have done on here for other cities while disputing claims that their heart of their downtowns are more vibrant then what posters claim they were.

Last edited by Razor; Jun 17, 2019 at 4:18 AM.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 1:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
True, there's way more demand than available openings in both the U.S. and Canada so the numbers are completely unrelated - each of the two countries chooses to take as many as they want to every year.

]
Even if qualification-related criteria are imposed, there are more than enough people who want to move from the developing world to the developed world to go around.

The idea that there is a global shortage of good immigrants and a battle to lure the best ones is something that I used to buy into but after looking at some facts and numbers it's clearly not true.

There are all sorts of places around the world right now that are getting guilt-tripped to not implement policy or law X, Y or Z because they will supposedly scare off or at least displease immigrants, therefore handicapping their economic future. Allegedly.

That's all bunk.
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Last edited by Acajack; Jun 17, 2019 at 2:41 PM.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 2:24 PM
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lots of weird twists and turns in this thread.

"china", "trump", "the raptors"

i honestly made the thread as a celebration of toronto's extremely rapid skyline growth over the past 2 decades. 20 years ago when i joined this forum, toronto was a great city with a nice skyline, but nothing overly remarkable from the perspective of the number of buildings over 500'. with 11 such buildings, it placed 8th in the US/canada in that category in 1999.

sure, back then just as today, toronto had gobs of 20-something story rental buildings spread ALL across the city and even into the burbs, a fairly uncommon typology in most US cities, but outside of the CN tower, nobody really considered toronto to have one of the tallest/largest skylines of north america, certainly nowhere near top 3.

and now? it's crossed the century mark on the 500 footer measure and SOLIDLY positioned itself as the #3 tallest/largest skyline in north america, and if the current pace holds, toronto will be surpassing chicago on that score within the next decade. it won't catch NYC for a long time, if ever, but the fact that toronto is now on the hunt for #2 is a really big deal.



as for the immigration/china/trump/population growth theorizing, i'd like to remind everyone that stagnant chicago has built 50 new 500+ footers over the past two decades with very little in the way of population growth, international immigration, chinese money, etc. those things are not prerequisites for a city to under-go a large skyscraper building boom. sometimes it can be as simple as suburban wealth re-concentrating in the center.

US/Canada 500+ footers built since 2000 by metro area (including U/C):
  1. NYC - 131
  2. toronto - 89
  3. miami - 67
  4. chicago - 50

  5. vancouver - 17
  6. las vegas - 14
  7. seattle - 11
  8. calgary - 10
  9. houston - 10
  10. los angeles - 10
  11. san francisco - 9
  12. atlanta - 8
  13. montreal - 7
  14. boston - 6
  15. austin - 6
  16. philadelphia - 5
  17. charlotte - 4
  18. edmonton - 3
  19. atlantic city - 2
  20. denver - 2

source: SSP database


metro NYC, metro toronto, metro miami, and chicago account for 71% of all the 500+ footers built in the US/canada since 2000.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jun 17, 2019 at 3:09 PM.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
sure, back then just as today, toronto had gobs of 20-something story rental buildings spread ALL across the city and even into the burbs, a fairly uncommon typology in most US cities, but outside of the CN tower, nobody really considered toronto to have one of the tallest/largest skylines of north america, certainly nowhere near top 3.
Using Emporis standards, Toronto has probably been a top 3 NA city for highrises since the 1970's.
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
and now? it's crossed the century mark on the 500 footer measure and SOLIDLY positioned itself as the #3 tallest/largest skyline in north america, and if the current pace holds, toronto will be surpassing chicago on that score within the next decade. it won't catch NYC for a long time, if ever, but the fact that toronto is now on the hunt for #2 is a really big deal.
Most Toronto highrises are outside the core, while almost all Chicago highrises are within the core. So it isn't accurate to conclude that (if you standard for best skyline is strictly based on "N of 500 ft+ towers") Toronto will have the #2 skyline.

And any such ranking would have to weight towers different, so that an iconic supertall isn't counted the same as a 500 ft. condobox. I mean, would anyone argue the ESB should be weighted the same as those 500 ft. towers in Fort Lee, NJ?

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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
as for the immigration/china/trump/population growth theorizing, i'd like to remind everyone that stagnant chicago has built 50 new 500+ footers over the past two decades with very little in the way of population growth, international immigration, chinese money, etc. those things are not prerequisites for a city to under-go a large skyscraper building boom. sometimes it can be as simple as suburban wealth re-concentrating in the center.
But Toronto has a growth boundary and strict limits on SFH. So when the region grows, it leads to highrise, or at least multifamily, growth. Most NA cities have no such restrictions, so the relationship between growth and highrises is weak at best.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
lots of weird twists and turns in this thread.

"china", "trump", "the raptors"

C'mon Steely, you know you can't start a Toronto thread here and not expect the usual suspects making the usual talking points ("b-b-but Chinese money laundering!").




Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Except no one was seriously claiming the Warriors were better than Durant. And six of the Warriors top seven players weren't healthy; it wasn't just Durant.

That doesn't mean they don't deserve the championship, but yeah, injuries matter. The Pistons had a championship against the Lakers where every Lakers star was hurt. Still counts.

Of course you'd be a Warriors apologist.

KD was of course out for the series and Klay was out for a game and a half, as was Looney (is he really important though?), but otherwise everyone else on the Warriors played through the series.

Yeah, Cousins & Igoudala weren't 100%, but it's the playoffs - that's to be expected. It's not as if the Warriors were the only team with injuries - both Kawhi and Lowry were playing through injury as well; while OG Anunoby was also out for the Raptors (not part of the starting five or anything, but a solid bench player nonetheless - no less important than a guy like Looney).
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