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  #101  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2009, 12:08 PM
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PhxPavilion PhxPavilion is offline
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I still don't like its encroachment to the south.
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  #102  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2009, 1:50 PM
gymratmanaz gymratmanaz is offline
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and that's bad because?????

It is development right in the heart of two stadiums, Cityscape, and walking distance from major hotels.
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  #103  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2009, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by PhxPavilion View Post
I still don't like its encroachment to the south.
Why?

Just as it is north of Downtown, urban rehabilitation is a welcome sight to the south of it as well. I would love to see neighborhoods south of Jackson or Lincoln, have opportunities to evolve into interesting or someday vibrant areas of their own. If JSED ever comes to fruition, I think the energy of the project could help drive this focus over time.

Vehicular entry and exit to/from Downtown via I-17 to the south is heavy. As a major point of entry, it would be nice if more attention could be paid to this south-central area of Phoenix.
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  #104  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2009, 4:05 AM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
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yes but a bulk of the traffic comes from the north and, honestly, the idea of south phoenix may be too much to get past for some people. I always used to park south of the ballpark when I lived in NoPho and people thought I was crazy for parking "so close to south Phoenix"...idk. Some people will never change their minds about downtown...that might be why the downtown club scene has failed to take off.
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  #105  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2009, 5:27 AM
gymratmanaz gymratmanaz is offline
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I respectfully disagree. Build great attractions and people will come. Jackson Street is not a scary street.
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  #106  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2009, 7:35 AM
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yes but this is not a great attraction...and that's the problem. In a town that wants to be LA and lives and dies by corporate brand name cachet you're going to have to really "bring it" if you want to survive. That's basically the only thing that was going to save CityNorth and now that they've lost Macys and Bloomingdales, who knows if they will be able to bounce back? I just don't think House of Blues is going to be the big name draw that will get locals down to JSED. Then again, I don't understand the appeal of a place that plays Jimmy Buffet music all the time either but that place seems to do well.

For me, what JSED needs is big corporate 'firsts' for the valley. Really a CB2 would be awesome. An H&M. A Lucky Strike. A W Hotel complete with Vegas-style Ghost Bar rooftop hangout. And finally, a movie house with 5 screens that serves booze and shows indie movies on 4 of them and whatever the newest biggest movie is on the other screen that is capable of IMAX and 3D and D-box. You do all of that, and let the local market fill in the rest, and you will be successful. No more chain restaurants. No more knock off boutiques peddling Ed Hardy. That would get people to actually come down...not just stay down there.
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  #107  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2009, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by oliveurban View Post
Why?

Just as it is north of Downtown, urban rehabilitation is a welcome sight to the south of it as well. I would love to see neighborhoods south of Jackson or Lincoln, have opportunities to evolve into interesting or someday vibrant areas of their own. If JSED ever comes to fruition, I think the energy of the project could help drive this focus over time.

Vehicular entry and exit to/from Downtown via I-17 to the south is heavy. As a major point of entry, it would be nice if more attention could be paid to this south-central area of Phoenix.
South Phoenix is a largely blighted and abandoned area. It would be much more effective to fill in all the empty buildings and dirt lots in the downtown core before venturing outside it and killing pedestrian traffic.

The only reason they want to go south is because property is easier to acquire and because Sarver put a wrench in their original plans to go along Jackson to the west. That and they want it to connect with the arena and ball park.
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  #108  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2009, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhxPavilion View Post
South Phoenix is a largely blighted and abandoned area. It would be much more effective to fill in all the empty buildings and dirt lots in the downtown core before venturing outside it and killing pedestrian traffic.

The only reason they want to go south is because property is easier to acquire and because Sarver put a wrench in their original plans to go along Jackson to the west. That and they want it to connect with the arena and ball park.
The core, by definition, includes the area from 3rd ave to 7th st, fillmore to the tracks. JSED is part of the core.

I can't see anything wrong, in theory, with connecting those venues and fixing the street.

Yet a citizen's opposition brews ostensibly affiliated with DVC. Not sure what it's about, but one of their organizers is to meet with them on Monday. While we spoke briefly, she didn't seem like the protoypical NIMBY. She knew what she was talking about, pointing out deadzones in specific.
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  #109  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2009, 9:51 PM
gymratmanaz gymratmanaz is offline
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I was wrong on which building will house the 5 restaurants. It is the storage building on the NW corner of 1st and Jackson. The building next to it to the west, that I thought was for the restaurants is already cleared out on the inside. I went in to look around...that is what open doors are for, right?.... It is gutted to 2 stories high and framed out for offices. I am not sure who's offices, but they look pretty cool in there. This means there will be two redone buildings on Jackson..... Looks like the offices could be done fairly soon.
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  #110  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2009, 11:26 PM
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Don't forget Moses Anshell Advertising Agency is at 20 W Jackson (next building west on the other side of central) in a fantastic rehabbed warehouse also. If you ever have a chance to get inside there it is awesome.
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  #111  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2009, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhxPavilion View Post
South Phoenix is a largely blighted and abandoned area. It would be much more effective to fill in all the empty buildings and dirt lots in the downtown core before venturing outside it and killing pedestrian traffic.

The only reason they want to go south is because property is easier to acquire and because Sarver put a wrench in their original plans to go along Jackson to the west. That and they want it to connect with the arena and ball park.
South Phoenix is too large of an area to discuss. I'm referring specifically to the areas immediately south of Jackson St, and the tracks. It's not a distant walk at all, and for anyone to imply that we should just "forget about it" is being short-sighted. Some tend to forget that many of the areas Downtown that we may now think of as "revitalized" used to be considerably blighted themselves, not that long ago. Renewal has to start somewhere.

Truly revitalizing the warehouse district would most certainly not "kill" pedestrian traffic Downtown. Rather, it becoming a stronger neighborhood on it's own would only help to enhance overall foot traffic and "life" in the Downtown core. As we all know, great urban centers contain interconnected patchworks of unique and interesting neighborhoods. The warehouse district, and the areas immediately to it's south, hold great opportunities to join the fold.
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  #112  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2009, 11:12 PM
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^Agreed 100% Oliveurban. Luckily the Urban Form project was smart enough to include the "Park" neighborhoods as their called, so hopefully that'll give them some hope of being redeveloped. They do have a lot of hurdles to overcome though, bad reputation being the primary one. Additionally things like giant overhead powerlines and substations create a visual mess most people won't ever want to live near.

I recommend everyone checks out this if you haven't already. It talks about the Downtown character areas which includes the Warehouse district and Park Neighborhoods.

The Park Neighborhoods will never be like Willo, but if they could develop into working/middle class neighborhoods with first time home buyers it would be amazing for downtown. I just wish the Capitol Mall and Garfield were included in the Urban form plan, any hope for Downtown to ever be truly great will need those neighborhoods to become feeders into downtown.
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  #113  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2009, 1:48 AM
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PhxPavilion PhxPavilion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oliveurban View Post
South Phoenix is too large of an area to discuss. I'm referring specifically to the areas immediately south of Jackson St, and the tracks. It's not a distant walk at all, and for anyone to imply that we should just "forget about it" is being short-sighted. Some tend to forget that many of the areas Downtown that we may now think of as "revitalized" used to be considerably blighted themselves, not that long ago. Renewal has to start somewhere.
I didn't say we should forget about it, I said that it's not a good idea to ignore all the potential in the already developed sections of downtown to instead create a large entertainment complex blocks away in a part of town that currently has no foot traffic. Except for a few places here and there, south of Jefferson is mostly abandoned or empty dirt lots.

Quote:
Truly revitalizing the warehouse district would most certainly not "kill" pedestrian traffic Downtown. Rather, it becoming a stronger neighborhood on it's own would only help to enhance overall foot traffic and "life" in the Downtown core. As we all know, great urban centers contain interconnected patchworks of unique and interesting neighborhoods. The warehouse district, and the areas immediately to it's south, hold great opportunities to join the fold.
You misunderstood me, I didn't mean to say revitalizing the warhouse district would kill pedestrian traffic in the parts of downtown where it already exists, I said that having this development apart from the developed areas north of Jefferson would kill pedestrian traffic from that area to JSED, since the two would be bordered by empty buildings and dirt lots to the west and east. If it were up to me JSED would border Madison and Jackson between 3rd st and 3rd ave.
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  #114  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2009, 7:21 AM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
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I have to say, the fact that we've all sort of bought into this developer kool aid with JSED is a bit disappointing. We spend page after page complaining about suburbia, Westgate, TempeMkplc, CityNorth, etc etc and then we beg for the same thing downtown in the name of preservation & "getting people to come downtown". As far as I can tell, Willo, FQ, and Roosevelt all were revived without a massive development project. It took creative individuals and help from the city. That is the same thing that needs to happen on Jackson.

No one on here wants to see the warehouses torn down. It seems clear enough to me that we have managed to salvage ... what, 6 large warehouses and turn them into something useful. We did all of that without House of Blues and RED. If individuals and smaller groups can create a 5 restaurant complex why can't someone else do a similar project? Places like Newbury Street in Boston were not made because some developer said "we've got Jamba Juice and H&M on board to come in and we're gonna turn a bunch of houses into shops." People converter those houses and made it into the place to be...then the corporations came calling, begging to get a piece of the action. That's the way it should work and that's what needs to and SHOULD happen with JSED.

I am just so opposed to this project now. After watching them ruin the center of our city for a fraction of what we were promised with CityScape, I will be damned if I am going to sit back and let them do the same with JSED. Just you watch, 4 months into the start of construction on any part of JSED it will be "determined" that several warehouses are "beyond repair" and they will be torn down. Carbon copies will be put up (much like the Stadium Lofts) and before we know it, the warehouse district will look like some cheesy nouveau riche playground like CityNorth.
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  #115  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2009, 5:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glynnjamin View Post
I have to say, the fact that we've all sort of bought into this developer kool aid with JSED is a bit disappointing. We spend page after page complaining about suburbia, Westgate, TempeMkplc, CityNorth, etc etc and then we beg for the same thing downtown in the name of preservation & "getting people to come downtown". As far as I can tell, Willo, FQ, and Roosevelt all were revived without a massive development project. It took creative individuals and help from the city. That is the same thing that needs to happen on Jackson.

No one on here wants to see the warehouses torn down. It seems clear enough to me that we have managed to salvage ... what, 6 large warehouses and turn them into something useful. We did all of that without House of Blues and RED. If individuals and smaller groups can create a 5 restaurant complex why can't someone else do a similar project? Places like Newbury Street in Boston were not made because some developer said "we've got Jamba Juice and H&M on board to come in and we're gonna turn a bunch of houses into shops." People converter those houses and made it into the place to be...then the corporations came calling, begging to get a piece of the action. That's the way it should work and that's what needs to and SHOULD happen with JSED.

I am just so opposed to this project now. After watching them ruin the center of our city for a fraction of what we were promised with CityScape, I will be damned if I am going to sit back and let them do the same with JSED. Just you watch, 4 months into the start of construction on any part of JSED it will be "determined" that several warehouses are "beyond repair" and they will be torn down. Carbon copies will be put up (much like the Stadium Lofts) and before we know it, the warehouse district will look like some cheesy nouveau riche playground like CityNorth.
Good points all around. The last thing we need is more demolition followed by land-banking for a decade while someone waits for the land to be valuable enough to redevelop. As for places like HoB, I'm already embarrassed enough by the Hard Rock Cafe in the Collier Center. One of the things I like about Downtown Phoenix's underdog status is that the pockets of rejuvenation are generally based on interesting, unique businesses rather than the same chains that we see from coast to coast.
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  #116  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2009, 6:07 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glynnjamin View Post
I have to say, the fact that we've all sort of bought into this developer kool aid with JSED is a bit disappointing. We spend page after page complaining about suburbia, Westgate, TempeMkplc, CityNorth, etc etc and then we beg for the same thing downtown in the name of preservation & "getting people to come downtown". As far as I can tell, Willo, FQ, and Roosevelt all were revived without a massive development project. It took creative individuals and help from the city. That is the same thing that needs to happen on Jackson.

No one on here wants to see the warehouses torn down. It seems clear enough to me that we have managed to salvage ... what, 6 large warehouses and turn them into something useful. We did all of that without House of Blues and RED. If individuals and smaller groups can create a 5 restaurant complex why can't someone else do a similar project? Places like Newbury Street in Boston were not made because some developer said "we've got Jamba Juice and H&M on board to come in and we're gonna turn a bunch of houses into shops." People converter those houses and made it into the place to be...then the corporations came calling, begging to get a piece of the action. That's the way it should work and that's what needs to and SHOULD happen with JSED.

I am just so opposed to this project now. After watching them ruin the center of our city for a fraction of what we were promised with CityScape, I will be damned if I am going to sit back and let them do the same with JSED. Just you watch, 4 months into the start of construction on any part of JSED it will be "determined" that several warehouses are "beyond repair" and they will be torn down. Carbon copies will be put up (much like the Stadium Lofts) and before we know it, the warehouse district will look like some cheesy nouveau riche playground like CityNorth.
look who we finally hear from. Where ya been, dick?

And I totally agree with you about the tearing down of buildings, though I forsee them never rebuilding them in any form. However, if we got ANY sort of CityNorth, I'd cry. That place is a pile of steaming doody.
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  #117  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2009, 7:39 PM
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KingLouieLouie76 KingLouieLouie76 is offline
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I apologize in advance if these links already have been posted:

http://www.phoenix.gov/planning/Z-78-08.pdf

http://www.future-cities.us/JSEDcomp...ok20090211.pdf

Last edited by KingLouieLouie76; Jul 16, 2009 at 7:52 PM.
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  #118  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2009, 9:05 PM
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/\ Some good information in those, however, there is a lot of stuff in there that is concerning, especially in relation to the historic buildings that are left. From what I gathered, bascially any historic building could be demolished right now with the city having nothing it can do about it. There are a couple buildings that are designated on the historic register, but several others aren't. The verbiage in the document goes on to say that this could all be demolished, even though a couple of the landowners have expressed interest in keeping the historic buildings on site and renovating them (they could apply for some grant money where they'd get paid the money they could have made by tearing down the old buildings and building new).

One cool thing I read was this:
"As such, the Historic Preservation Office's support for the PUD application is subject to the additional stipulation that the two warehouses not be demolished (or recieve city demolition permit approval) without city site plan and building permit approval for new permanent construction/development on these properties."

The above sounds great and sounds like the city is getting their heads out of their ass after all of these years of letting someone tear down a great historic building, only to see the place sit empty for years. However, I would hope that the city would require all remaining historic buildings be preserve and renovated. At this point we need to keep everything we have left. Even if they are only allowing them to demolish once they have plans and building permits in place, I'd still wish they not allow the demolition of anything historic anymore in the first place, whether or not they build something new.
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  #119  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2009, 6:41 AM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
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Hey remember when Mary Rose Wilcox didn't have approval to tear down her historic home? Ya...the city really stuck it to her then too. I'm sure they will go after a giant developer who also has ownership of the two downtown sports teams.

Fuckin city...I know Im gonna hate this project if it ever gets done.
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  #120  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2009, 2:35 PM
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/\ Yeah, i thought about that hobag..

Here's the house she tore down around 700 S. 1st Avenue.

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