TriMet/Metro Southwest Corridor Planning (Portland to Bridgeport Village)

[RED_PDXer]

You all make good points. I'm just pointing to the fact that suburb to suburb commuting is almost entirely done by car and trying to get more people in this region on board transit will take a more comprehensive and different approach than putting enhanced transit in a single corridor to downtown that's already well served. Up until 1983 (or close to it), nearly every single bus in the region went directly downtown. TriMet figured out that people need to get to other places and re-arranged the bus lines so that several buses never go downtown and instead wrap around the suburbs. Lines 72 and 75 are the most successful examples of that on the eastside. Lines 57 and 76 are pretty successful on the westside as well. Clearly, transit can succeed in these environments.

[urbanbydesign]

So much to say in this thread....
Namely, I feel like the stated goals of the city (ditch your car in favor of other modes of transportation) is failing miserably. This is a car dependent city. The density isn't there, you can't flag a cab, and the bus system is miserable for those who depend on it. It's an infrequent and an incredibly slow system, the lack of express busses is particularly bewildering. Before we start planning a SW corridor that serves an exurb that doesn't have any kind of density in place, maybe the trip on the #4 doesn't take 3 hours from Gresham to St Johns? Priorities seem out of whack.
Looking forward, I'd love to see some kind of actual Metropolitan Portland vision when it comes to transportation. We should start building a " Metro-North " system now while land might be cheaper than it potentially could be.. Dig some tunnels underneath union station and have affordable and rapid transit to Salem, Vancouver, Tigard, Newberg, McMinnville, etc.
We'd have a great little Grand Central Station right in the city and would make the commutes so much easier.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by RED_PDXer

You all make good points. I'm just pointing to the fact that suburb to suburb commuting is almost entirely done by car and trying to get more people in this region on board transit will take a more comprehensive and different approach than putting enhanced transit in a single corridor to downtown that's already well served. Up until 1983 (or close to it), nearly every single bus in the region went directly downtown. TriMet figured out that people need to get to other places and re-arranged the bus lines so that several buses never go downtown and instead wrap around the suburbs. Lines 72 and 75 are the most successful examples of that on the eastside. Lines 57 and 76 are pretty successful on the westside as well. Clearly, transit can succeed in these environments.

I think the Orange Line is a great example of what we should be doing with our rail/bus system. The light rail system should run its routes to and from downtown. Then from there, the buses are run from transit stops to other points in the suburbs and surrounding neighborhoods. The 31, 32, and 33 lines use to all run to downtown Portland, now they all come from a suburban point, run to downtown Milwaukie, and then head out to another suburban point.

In a sense, it would work best to have light rail be the direct connections into downtown so that buses can be freed up to be focused on more suburb to rail to suburb routes. This would also lead to the ability to experiment with buses in creating cross metro suburb to suburb bus routes when targeting where people are coming from and going to.

This would be the most effective way at expanding rail/bus transit throughout the city and metro.

Originally Posted by urbanbydesign

So much to say in this thread....
Namely, I feel like the stated goals of the city (ditch your car in favor of other modes of transportation) is failing miserably. This is a car dependent city. The density isn't there, you can't flag a cab, and the bus system is miserable for those who depend on it. It's an infrequent and an incredibly slow system, the lack of express busses is particularly bewildering. Before we start planning a SW corridor that serves an exurb that doesn't have any kind of density in place, maybe the trip on the #4 doesn't take 3 hours from Gresham to St Johns? Priorities seem out of whack.
Looking forward, I'd love to see some kind of actual Metropolitan Portland vision when it comes to transportation. We should start building a " Metro-North " system now while land might be cheaper than it potentially could be.. Dig some tunnels underneath union station and have affordable and rapid transit to Salem, Vancouver, Tigard, Newberg, McMinnville, etc.
We'd have a great little Grand Central Station right in the city and would make the commutes so much easier.

I have to disagree, the new Orange Line is being heavily used by people who are choosing to take transit over driving into the city. When you look at our commute numbers, about 3/4 commute by car. If we continue to expand alternative forms of transportation, we might actually see that number get closer to 50/50, though Portland might have a better chance of hitting those numbers than the metro will.

The density for Portland and the metro is coming, each year we see corridors becoming more and more dense. Along the Orange Line, you can basically see all the potential areas for dense development that we will probably see happen within the next 10 years.

As for the SW Corridor, the proper planning now gives the metro a chance to rezone around where stations could do that would allow more dense developments because there are a number of places where we could see dense walkable neighborhoods surrounding stations. It is hard to make these things to happen without a reason for them to happen in the first place.

As for a regional rail line like the Sounder, that I agree, the state could be putting forth a better effort to put in a true commuter rail line for the Willamette Valley. Amtak does some of this, but not to the same extent a true commuter rail line would do for the region.

[RED_PDXer]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I think the Orange Line is a great example of what we should be doing with our rail/bus system. The light rail system should run its routes to and from downtown. Then from there, the buses are run from transit stops to other points in the suburbs and surrounding neighborhoods. The 31, 32, and 33 lines use to all run to downtown Portland, now they all come from a suburban point, run to downtown Milwaukie, and then head out to another suburban point.

In a sense, it would work best to have light rail be the direct connections into downtown so that buses can be freed up to be focused on more suburb to rail to suburb routes. This would also lead to the ability to experiment with buses in creating cross metro suburb to suburb bus routes when targeting where people are coming from and going to.

I agree completely that the bus service changes associated with the Orange Line were well thought out and planned.. lots of improved connections between the 99E corridor to Clackamas Town Center. I was pointing out that Line 75 and 72 are successful not because they run perpendicular to MAX (that helps), but they serve a high demand of suburb to suburb travel.

I'd be happy if TriMet made more of these suburb to suburb bus connections. The service enhancement plans are a great start, from what I've seen - nothing groundbreaking in them, but seemingly very good tweaks here and there. Hopefully with the increased funding they are about to get from the payroll tax increase, some of those plans can be realized in the near term.

[dubu]

the new bus routs are nice, with the 33 and 79 goes straight to the clackamas town center now (it does a weird circle that takes a while at the safeway in gladstone though). if there was bus lanes then it would be perfect and if the busses ran more often

[urbanbydesign]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I think the Orange Line is a great example of what we should be doing with our rail/bus system. The light rail system should run its routes to and from downtown. Then from there, the buses are run from transit stops to other points in the suburbs and surrounding neighborhoods. The 31, 32, and 33 lines use to all run to downtown Portland, now they all come from a suburban point, run to downtown Milwaukie, and then head out to another suburban point.

In a sense, it would work best to have light rail be the direct connections into downtown so that buses can be freed up to be focused on more suburb to rail to suburb routes. This would also lead to the ability to experiment with buses in creating cross metro suburb to suburb bus routes when targeting where people are coming from and going to.

This would be the most effective way at expanding rail/bus transit throughout the city and metro.




I have to disagree, the new Orange Line is being heavily used by people who are choosing to take transit over driving into the city. When you look at our commute numbers, about 3/4 commute by car. If we continue to expand alternative forms of transportation, we might actually see that number get closer to 50/50, though Portland might have a better chance of hitting those numbers than the metro will.

The density for Portland and the metro is coming, each year we see corridors becoming more and more dense. Along the Orange Line, you can basically see all the potential areas for dense development that we will probably see happen within the next 10 years.

As for the SW Corridor, the proper planning now gives the metro a chance to rezone around where stations could do that would allow more dense developments because there are a number of places where we could see dense walkable neighborhoods surrounding stations. It is hard to make these things to happen without a reason for them to happen in the first place.

As for a regional rail line like the Sounder, that I agree, the state could be putting forth a better effort to put in a true commuter rail line for the Willamette Valley. Amtak does some of this, but not to the same extent a true commuter rail line would do for the region.

Any chance you could provide a link on PDX commuter numbers? 25% sounds incredibly high, especially for an American city. I'm not finding the same info...

I understand your points between TOD and putting in the infrastructure but I think Barbur is a terrible place to dedicate that level of resources. It's an unattractive street with strip malls and ranch houses on large lots, with no street grid system to build a thriving transit network on. It's also walled off by I-5 on one side which doesn't give much opportunity to build out the density desired. If it were to run through hillsdale and multnomah village on its way to Sylvania, maybe it would make sense but some of the same issues would exist and I bet residents wouldn't be over the moon to have the MAX cutting through their neighborhoods. It's just not a part of town that makes much sense to me, but I could see BRT working out ok.
Also kind of why I mentioned commuter rail and a broader regional rail network. Have a train that makes a stop from downtown, Sylvania, tigard, newberg, Dundee, terminating in McMinnville.

[trail_blazers_7]

Originally Posted by urbanbydesign

Any chance you could provide a link on PDX commuter numbers? 25% sounds incredibly high, especially for an American city. I'm not finding the same info...

I understand your points between TOD and putting in the infrastructure but I think Barbur is a terrible place to dedicate that level of resources. It's an unattractive street with strip malls and ranch houses on large lots, with no street grid system to build a thriving transit network on. It's also walled off by I-5 on one side which doesn't give much opportunity to build out the density desired. If it were to run through hillsdale and multnomah village on its way to Sylvania, maybe it would make sense but some of the same issues would exist and I bet residents wouldn't be over the moon to have the MAX cutting through their neighborhoods. It's just not a part of town that makes much sense to me, but I could see BRT working out ok.
Also kind of why I mentioned commuter rail and a broader regional rail network. Have a train that makes a stop from downtown, Sylvania, tigard, newberg, Dundee, terminating in McMinnville.

http://www.portlandoregon.gov/transp...article/288343

Not great but not terrible either. I know the data is old. There's newer data available that I saw very recently at bikeportland but I couldn't find the article.
The numbers on the current data are pretty similar.

[trail_blazers_7]

http://bikeportland.org/2015/09/17/p...te-to-7-159171

Here's that BP article. The graphs cite census data for the city proper, not the metro area.

Here's the census data: http://factfinder.census.gov/faces/t...xhtml?src=bkmk

[profx]

there was a historic grid until the 54 blocks of a diverse ethnic neighborhood of south portland were bulldozed due to misguided urban renewal and transportation projects in the 1960s. since then the whole neighborhood has been degraded and divided by car through traffic. a southwest corridor alignment along barbur or naito represents an opportunity to right a historic injustice and to promote urban living and public transportation. if the ramp spaghetti onto ross island bridge is rationalized as part of the project, this will offer an opportunity to restore some of the lost residential space.

Originally Posted by urbanbydesign

Any chance you could provide a link on PDX commuter numbers? 25% sounds incredibly high, especially for an by city. I'm not finding the same info...

I understand your points between TOD and putting in the infrastructure but I think Barbur is a terrible place to dedicate that level of resources. It's an unattractive street with strip malls and ranch houses on large lots, with no street grid system to build a thriving transit network on. It's also walled off by I-5 on one side which doesn't give much opportunity to build out the density desired. If it were to run through hillsdale and multnomah village on its way to Sylvania, maybe it would make sense but some of the same issues would exist and I bet residents wouldn't be over the moon to have the MAX cutting through their neighborhoods. It's just not a part of town that makes much sense to me, but I could see BRT working out ok.
Also kind of why I mentioned commuter rail and a broader regional rail network. Have a train that makes a stop from downtown, Sylvania, tigard, newberg, Dundee, terminating in McMinnville.

[trail_blazers_7]

Originally Posted by profx

there was a historic grid until the 54 blocks of a diverse ethnic neighborhood of south portland were bulldozed due to misguided urban renewal and transportation projects in the 1960s. since then the whole neighborhood has been degraded and divided by car through traffic. a southwest corridor alignment along barbur or naito represents an opportunity to right a historic injustice and to promote urban living and public transportation. if the ramp spaghetti onto ross island bridge is rationalized as part of the project, this will offer an opportunity to restore some of the lost residential space.

Making south Portland less isolated would be quite the undertaking to say the least, and it would most likely be beyond the scope of any HCT through the area. Even if the Ross island bridge approach was cleaned up and traffic wasn't routed to 6th to get on the 405, the 5 and the 405 and by extension the Marquam bridge are significant barriers that isolate the area. I think capping the 405 between 4th and Broadway and using the caps as a southern terminus for the park blocks would not only improve pedestrian and bike connectivity, but it would also help with overall aesthetics and if coupled with a RIB -> 405 cleanup would reduce traffic noise quite a bit. It seems like the area around Sheridan and caruthers are somewhat under developed, connecting them to downtown along with a transit project would be begging for increased density and building height in the area.

[profx]

[
QUOTE=trail_blazers_7;7182990]Making south Portland less isolated would be quite the undertaking to say the least, and it would most likely be beyond the scope of any HCT through the area. Even if the Ross island bridge approach was cleaned up and traffic wasn't routed to 6th to get on the 405, the 5 and the 405 and by extension the Marquam bridge are significant barriers that isolate the area. I think capping the 405 between 4th and Broadway and using the caps as a southern terminus for the park blocks would not only improve pedestrian and bike connectivity, but it would also help with overall aesthetics and if coupled with a RIB -> 405 cleanup would reduce traffic noise quite a bit. It seems like the area around Sheridan and caruthers are somewhat under developed, connecting them to downtown along with a transit project would be begging for increased density and building height in the area.[/QUOTE]

a highway cap would be great, especially if PSU ever gets around to redeveloping University Place (haven't heard anything about that in a while). However, unlike a cap, cleaning up the RIB approach is currently on the list of possible improvents for the southwest corridor transit project.

you are right that that area around sheridan and caruthers could be further developed, and I'm hoping the combination of the orange line and the arrival of under armour at duniway park will help with that.

[65MAX]

Metro is now considering another aerial tram to link the PCC Sylvania campus to a proposed Barbur and 53rd transit station. Given the OHSU Tram cost $57 million, I'd say that's a heck of a lot cheaper than the $250 million estimate for tunneling under 53rd Ave.

http://www.oregonlive.com/washington...am_in_the.html

[bvpcvm]

They've also eliminated downtown Tualatin as a terminus, because space constraints would require construction of an elevated station.

Final station would apparently be at Bridgeport Village.

[urbanlife]

A tram sounds like a creative solution to this issue, though it would need to have more "pods" (I guess that is what they are called) than the current one at OHSU. Based on the Oregonian article, it sounds like they are willing to give this the ol' college try, but will probably end up going with a shuttle bus service that runs from the campus to the nearest light rail station.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

They've also eliminated downtown Tualatin as a terminus, because space constraints would require construction of an elevated station.

Final station would apparently be at Bridgeport Village.

That is about as far as I figured this line would go, Bridgeport Village makes a lot of sense to connect this too. Plus, most people don't even realize Tualatin has a downtown or people just assume Bridgeport is their downtown.

I would however like to see Bridgeport restructure itself to be more than just an outdoor mall if/when it gets light rail. It would be cool to see that area take on some dense housing as well to really make it an urban village.

[dubu]

Originally Posted by dabom

the new bus routs are nice, with the 33 and 79 goes straight to the clackamas town center now (it does a weird circle that takes a while at the safeway in gladstone though). if there was bus lanes then it would be perfect and if the busses ran more often

The bus 79 is going back to the longer rout. Maybe some day there will be bus lanes for the rout that goes next to i205. That rout gets alot of traffic.

The max wont go to the gladstone area were a lot of people dont drive. Because of something dumb, not sure what it is

[Grantenfuego]

Light rail or bus rapid transit in the Southwest Corridor? New memo weighs the differences

http://www.oregonmetro.gov/news/ligh...hs-differences

By Craig Beebe
Jan 07, 2016 11:30am

The Southwest Corridor Plan’s steering committee is scheduled to decide which option to pursue when it meets Feb. 29.

An online quick poll last month, seeking questions about the mode decision, attracted more than 600 people. While the poll’s findings are unscientific, 61 percent of respondents moderately or strongly preferred light rail in the Southwest Corridor, while 25 percent moderately or strongly preferred bus rapid transit. The rest were either undecided, need more information or don’t like either option.

This poll followed the Dec. 16 release of a community attitudes survey of Tigard residents conducted by their city. The survey, which is conducted every two years and uses statistically significant methods, included questions about high capacity transit. This year, the survey found nearly three-quarters of Tigard residents support high capacity transit to Tigard. Of those, about half preferred light rail, while 15 percent preferred bus rapid transit.

[maccoinnich]

Survey about SW Corridor. If you think the project should be light rail instead of BRT (hint) now is the time to tell them. A decision is being made on February 29th.

[rsbear]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

Survey about SW Corridor. If you think the project should be light rail instead of BRT (hint) now is the time to tell them. A decision is being made on February 29th.

Thanks for posting. I've completed the survey (took less than 10 minutes).

[Derek]

Ditto