HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Hamilton > Urban, Urban Design & Heritage Issues


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #41  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2008, 4:00 PM
Goldfinger Goldfinger is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
Despite my excessive use of sarcasm in my previous post, my exercise in irony was obviously lost on you. The statement was designed to demonstrate the kind of generalizations urban Hamiltonians have to put up with on a day-to-day basis, only applying it to suburbanites. I find it interesting to note the prompt backlash from the overstating of crime perpetrated by suburbanites from those trying to advance the cause of suburbia...
That's the dumbest excuse I've read for posting nonsense like that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2008, 4:13 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,054
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
You nailed my main point without even realizing it. Crime in Hamilton's inner city is overstated. As someone who lives in the inner city, I am tired of it constantly being painted with broad brushstrokes by those looking at it from the outside. It's not that we do not want it discussed, we want it kept in proper perspective. If your neighbourhood's crime level was being constantly exagerrated and overstated, would you not raise a voice so a more truthful representation be heard? Are you suggesting I simply let these exaggerations go unchallenged and allow the perception to continue to be perverted? For years this has been the case, to the point that those who have not even set foot downtown have this perception far removed from reality. Downtown has suffered greatly from the consequences of this perception.

As far as addressing the 'problems' of downtown, perhaps the solution is to have the police crack down on all these suburbanites driving downtown to score some dope or pick up a prostitute. After all, it can't be us po' folk in the inner city doing these deals - we can't possibly afford those big shiny cars cruising the back alleys...

yep, I'm with ya. People who never venture downtown always try to act like the experts on downtown crime, lifestyle, traffic ideas etc.....
I wish they would just shut-up and stay at Walmart for the extra 30 minutes a day.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2008, 5:26 PM
fastcarsfreedom's Avatar
fastcarsfreedom fastcarsfreedom is offline
On Guard For Thee
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Essex County
Posts: 1,007
Interesting respsonses. I'm actually not here trying to "advance" the cause of suburbia at all. I think the benefits of both the city and suburbs stand on their own. Like yourselves, I enjoy my lifestyle and my community and don't feel it needs boosting. Frankly speaking, the responses I've read here regarding crime are nothing short of spin, and completely ignore the point I was trying to make.

Once again, everything goes back to the underlying theme here--which is that all people who do not live in the urban environ be damned. Considering how destructive provincial thinking has been over the past few decades, it alarms and surprises me that progressive thinkers such as yourselves would embrace it so readily.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #44  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2008, 6:16 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,054
fastcars, do us all a favour and quit reading your own agenda into everything. All I've stated here is agreement that downtown crime is WAY overhyped by suburban folks. End of story.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2008, 9:38 PM
RePinion's Avatar
RePinion RePinion is offline
Bobo in Purgatory
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London (Islington), UK
Posts: 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom View Post
Interesting respsonses. I'm actually not here trying to "advance" the cause of suburbia at all. I think the benefits of both the city and suburbs stand on their own. Like yourselves, I enjoy my lifestyle and my community and don't feel it needs boosting. Frankly speaking, the responses I've read here regarding crime are nothing short of spin, and completely ignore the point I was trying to make.

Once again, everything goes back to the underlying theme here--which is that all people who do not live in the urban environ be damned. Considering how destructive provincial thinking has been over the past few decades, it alarms and surprises me that progressive thinkers such as yourselves would embrace it so readily.
This shouldn't be surprising.

Rare indeed is the truly "progressive thinker". In general, people's tribal, territorial, philosophical, and (nowadays) lifestyle allegiances prevail over all else. As popular ethical notions shift, those whose allegiances happen to be in line with the shift invariably take the opportunity to proclaim themselves "progressives", and to decry those whose allegiances run counter to it as "regressives" and "reactionaries". This is certainly the case with the urban/suburban divide as we see it play out in this forum.

markbarbera illustrates this point well when he writes: "As someone who lives in the inner city, I am tired of it constantly being painted with broad brushstrokes by those looking at it from the outside. It's not that we do not want it discussed, we want it kept in proper perspective. If your neighbourhood's crime level was being constantly exagerrated and overstated, would you not raise a voice so a more truthful representation be heard? Are you suggesting I simply let these exaggerations go unchallenged and allow the perception to continue to be perverted?"

The above is an expression of allegiance more than anything else. While markbarbera later attempts to legitimize this remark by noting that the negative perception (re crime in the inner city) is ultimately detrimental to the downtown, the us-them dichotomy is clearly what animates the response.

RTH falls prey to the same prejudice when he writes "yep, I'm with ya. People who never venture downtown always try to act like the experts on downtown crime, lifestyle, traffic ideas etc..... I wish they would just shut-up and stay at Walmart for the extra 30 minutes a day."

The implication here is that only those who live downtown are fit to comment on its crime, lifestyle, traffic, etc.. Although there is some merit to this remark on its face, the ultimate attempt here is to deny the validity of a point of view simply on the basis of the status of its maker (i.e. urbanite/suburanite). This is just elitism of another stripe. Moreover, there is an element of rank hypocrisy here. RTH chides suburbanites for perpetuating stereotypes relating to the inner city, while at the same time perpetuating one of his own relating to the suburbs (i.e. that all suburbanites habitually shop at big box stores). This, perhaps more than anything else, betrays the fact that his thinking is predicated more on the basis of allegiance to a particular lifestyle identity (and hostility towards different allegiances seen to be in competition with this lifestyle identity) than on any real notion of progressiveness (or what is ultimately best for this city).

There is nothing wrong with identity allegiance per se (as it is such an irresistible human predisposition), but progressive thinking almost by definition resists the sort of exclusivity and chauvinism which allegiance invariably entails. Progressive thinkers are the ones who transcend their allegiances to see a particular issue from the perspective of every interested party, while at the same time being cognizant of the best ultimate outcome. Thus Gandhi could see the India question from both the Indian/British perspective and, later, the Hindu/Muslim one, while Mandela could see Apartheid from both white and black points of view. As I say, such progressive thinking is very rare, and I don't expect we'll see much of it on this forum.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2008, 9:43 PM
Goldfinger Goldfinger is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 242
^ Well said.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2008, 9:55 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,054
Quote:
Originally Posted by RePinion View Post
This shouldn't be surprising.

Rare indeed is the truly "progressive thinker". In general, people's tribal, territorial, philosophical, and (nowadays) lifestyle allegiances prevail over all else. As popular ethical notions shift, those whose allegiances happen to be in line with the shift invariably take the opportunity to proclaim themselves "progressives", and to decry those whose allegiances run counter to it as "regressives" and "reactionaries". This is certainly the case with the urban/suburban divide as we see it play out in this forum.

markbarbera illustrates this point well when he writes: "As someone who lives in the inner city, I am tired of it constantly being painted with broad brushstrokes by those looking at it from the outside. It's not that we do not want it discussed, we want it kept in proper perspective. If your neighbourhood's crime level was being constantly exagerrated and overstated, would you not raise a voice so a more truthful representation be heard? Are you suggesting I simply let these exaggerations go unchallenged and allow the perception to continue to be perverted?"

The above is an expression of allegiance more than anything else. While markbarbera later attempts to legitimize this remark by noting that the negative perception (re crime in the inner city) is ultimately detrimental to the downtown, the us-them dichotomy is clearly what animates the response.

RTH falls prey to the same prejudice when he writes "yep, I'm with ya. People who never venture downtown always try to act like the experts on downtown crime, lifestyle, traffic ideas etc..... I wish they would just shut-up and stay at Walmart for the extra 30 minutes a day."

The implication here is that only those who live downtown are fit to comment on its crime, lifestyle, traffic, etc.. Although there is some merit to this remark on its face, the ultimate attempt here is to deny the validity of a point of view simply on the basis of the status of its maker (i.e. urbanite/suburanite). This is just elitism of another stripe. Moreover, there is an element of rank hypocrisy here. RTH chides suburbanites for perpetuating stereotypes relating to the inner city, while at the same time perpetuating one of his own relating to the suburbs (i.e. that all suburbanites habitually shop at big box stores). This, perhaps more than anything else, betrays the fact that his thinking is predicated more on the basis of allegiance to a particular lifestyle identity (and hostility towards different allegiances seen to be in competition with this lifestyle identity) than on any real notion of progressiveness (or what is ultimately best for this city).

There is nothing wrong with identity allegiance per se (as it is such an irresistible human predisposition), but progressive thinking almost by definition resists the sort of exclusivity and chauvinism which allegiance invariably entails. Progressive thinkers are the ones who transcend their allegiances to see a particular issue from the perspective of every interested party, while at the same time being cognizant of the best ultimate outcome. Thus Gandhi could see the India question from both the Indian/British perspective and, later, the Hindu/Muslim one, while Mandela could see Apartheid from both white and black points of view. As I say, such progressive thinking is very rare, and I don't expect we'll see much of it on this forum.

as fabulous as this speech is, you (like others here) are reading way too much into posts.
Let's ask CHML to host a call-in show about what traffic calming measures should be implemented on Lynbrook Dr on the west mountain.
I can promise you this - I won't call in and I won't care what decision the local residents there come up with. It's their street, their hood and it's fine by me.

Nothing 'elitist' about it. People who NEVER come to downtown Hamilton shouldn't be making comments or suggestions about everyday life downtown.
As I've said already, they should shut-up.
I know I will when Lynbrook Dr is up for discussion.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2008, 10:00 PM
JT Jacobs JT Jacobs is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 157
Excellent analysis, RePinion, and elegantly expressed, too.

One addition to the general problem with Internet forums is that they are inevitably occupied by a small group of insiders who tend to dominate discussions overtly or, more rarely, with subtlety, and who, generally speaking, espouse a conventional wisdom that tends to become unconsidered, codified law after a time. Those who offer a differing--even dissenting view--are typically ostracized.

The ultimate result? New contributors become discouraged by the insiderism, and usually don't last long, which, for such a forum as this, means that the new and fresh ideas tend to be recycled stale ones.

Perhaps a general respect should be offered to all contributions regardless how much we may disagree with them.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2008, 1:58 AM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 3,050
I must giive credit to RePinion for the amount of time and effort he put in his earlier post. His vocabulary and verbose prosaic style is enough to make even the venerable Conrad Black blush. It is unfortunate that so much energy went into arguing an inarguable point.

RePinion betrays his own personal bias throughout his flowery diatribe. By using the third person narrative, he attempts to place himself above the forum participants he is critiquing. He is careful when selecting forumer's comments as examples of what he calls a prejudice of 'us/them dichotomy' to single out those who speak in defence of the inner city. Yet he chooses to ignore compelling examples of those who argue with equally fanatical bias towards the suburban lifestyle. For example, labelling the criticism of the proposal to rezone industrial land for big-box development as "Walmart-bashing" is at least as powerful an example of "lifestyle identity allegiance". RePinion's pointed selectiveness in example citation hobbles his arguement and diminishes the credibility of his thesis. Indeed, it exposes his own bias and lack of objectivity on the subject.

I will quite easily admit my pride and support for my neighbourhood without any shame or guilt. Nor will I veil it in heavily worded prose. When my neighbourhood is being unfairly represented in this forum, I will not let that misrepresentation go unchallenged.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2008, 2:08 AM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,054
yep, I'm with ya.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2008, 6:09 AM
fastcarsfreedom's Avatar
fastcarsfreedom fastcarsfreedom is offline
On Guard For Thee
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Essex County
Posts: 1,007
I have biases, just like everyone else--but I have never come here to push an agenda. End of story.

What amazes and confounds me is how posters here would choose to be dismissive of a poster like RePinion--who has brought an entirely new perspective to this site. He and I have disagreed completely in the past--yet never once has it become polarizing or uncivil. Nonetheless, no matter how much time or effort is put into a post--it's dismissed merely because it doesn't fit the very narrow definition of what's acceptable here and what is not.

Since the question I posed earlier in the thread have been ignored--let me try a different approach. From my perspective--downtown has a unique role to play in terms of shaping the city's identity--acting as a cultural and artistic hub, and well as the centre of commerce. Is it that--a single, defining area that is (potentially) shared by all, or, is it a neighborhood that is viewed with exclusivity by it's residents who don't feel municipal or regional input is even remotely important, let alone welcome? That's a serious question--and I look forward to the answer.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2008, 9:56 AM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 3,050
fastcarsfreedom, that is a very good question that is sure to draw plenty of discussion. Having said that, it really is beyond the scope of this thread, which is supposed to be about the restoration of Gage Park. I have heard from forumers pleading to keep these threads on topic, and it is really only fair that we all respect the scope of the individual thread and either take wider ranging discussions to more appropriate threads in SSP Hamilton, or start up a new thread in either the "Business Politics and the Economy" or "General Discussions" sections. When we do not, the topic is hijacked and any valuable discussion on that topic is lost in pages of diatribes and rebuttals. This does not add to the quality of this thread, rather it diminishes its value.

Unfortunately, discussions in these threads frequently get hijacked and sidetracked by those with various ulterior motives. Often it happens innocently, sometimes intentionally by those solely intent on disrupting discussion (lovingly referred to as trolls), and occassionally it is done simply to satisfy personal egos.

To those forumers who have been discouraged by these digressons (Steeltown, JT Jacobs), I apologize and will make a renewed effort not to fall into the honeypot of discussion diversion, and I hope others will follow suit.

Last edited by markbarbera; Apr 15, 2008 at 12:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2008, 1:13 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,054
FYI...I think Repinion is great...a fab addition to the forum.
Mind you, I don't think he/she ever questioned that, but since fastcars felt the need to centre him/her out, I want to state my opinion.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2008, 2:47 PM
realcity's Avatar
realcity realcity is offline
Bruatalism gets no respec
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Williamsville NY
Posts: 4,059
i agree.... well said RePinion. I like your input into this forum. Like MarkB I think you're a great writer, I also think Mr. Black is a great writer. Doesn't a 'diatribe' have to be spoken? I could be wrong. I got into that with someone else regarding an email... I'm against writers opting for the most intense word to describe something that is only a moderate version. "Diatribe" is getting overused for things that are a moderate statement of opinion.

Eg. Big, Bigger, Biggest
If something is big or bigger then say so, don't claim it to be the biggest if it's not. A diatribe has to be most hateful, vengeful, 'balling-out" someone could possibly make. This is a current problem in the literary world today. sorry for off topic blurb.

Regarding downtown vs. suburbs

I don't live downtown, but I still claim the downtown as my own. I can be just as concerned about it as downtown residents. Why? Because it is the core of my city.
__________________
Height restrictions and Set-backs are for Nimbys and the suburbs.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2008, 2:55 PM
fastcarsfreedom's Avatar
fastcarsfreedom fastcarsfreedom is offline
On Guard For Thee
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Essex County
Posts: 1,007
My posts actually have been about Gage Park--at least in part--but I got no feedback whatsoever on anything I said about the park or any efforts to restore it. Any off-topic "drift" was unintentional and organic in nature--I mentioned this in a reply a few days ago. Although I am a comformist in most areas of my life--I actually believe when we drift off-topic naturally that it's a positive thing--but anyway, that's a discussion for another time and place.

It is fair to question whether or not others (realcity added his name to this list) can be "just as concerned" about downtown as those whole live there. According to RTH, if you don't live downtown you should "shut up" about it. My feelings/comments/wishes about Gage Park are available in my previous posts.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2008, 3:12 PM
I, Sinclair I, Sinclair is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 49
You people are nuts.

From admittedly anecdotal evidence, I have been subjected to more nusiance behaviour and vandalism in my old neighbourhood just east of Gage Park than in the many years I lived in dodgy neigbourhoods in Toronto. The only comparison I can make is Cabbagetown, where minor property crime was a big problem.

Even in my new neighbourhood south of the HAAA, I experience what I consider to be a high level of nusiance crimes (broken car mirrors, cars broken into for change, broken bottles in the alley).

I have not lived everywhere, but in my experience nusiance crimes are higher in Hamilton than the other downtown districts I have lived in. I have no idea how to address it, but pretending I don't have this experience isn't going to make Hamilton any better.

As to the safety of Gage Park, when I lived beside it, I jogged every other night thru that park, most of the time after 10pm. I never had any problems, but I am 6'2 and north of 200lbs, so I probably am not a good example. I also saw at least one patrol car in the south lot every run.

But shit happens everywhere, and the poorer neighbourhoods in Hamilton have a lot more shit. To deny that people feel unsafe in Gage park, or to intimate that those that do are scared for no good reason, or worse, working a political agenda, is not particularly progressive, or helpful.

Oh, that entrance design is crap, in my opinion, but would be better than the mud and bushes that are there now.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2008, 3:14 PM
Mack297's Avatar
Mack297 Mack297 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hamilton, ON
Posts: 28
Well ... Hi! I'm a newbie ... I go by Mack, always have .. I've been a Hamiltonian all my 64 years .. give or take a few years here and there for youthful adventures.

I'm a cab driver ...can't 'not work', have to keep busy and I have had a cab licence since the 60's... work nights and spend most of my time in 'crack central' .. that area just to the east of 'downtown' .. I am also a retired 'civil servant'.

Amazing place, Hammerton, when the street lights come on.

Born and raised in the east end, still live here .. just north of Gage Park.

OK .. that out of the way, I want to say that I shall sit back for a while and see if I can catch a wave ... some good topics and lively discusssions in here, from what I have read thus far.

So ... if you check my 'avatar' and if some evening you see that face looking back at you in the rear view mirror ... "You are getting great taxi!".

So anyway, as I said, I shall sit back and wait for a good wave ... sounds better than 'sit back and lurk'.

Mack
__________________
Democracy is not a spectator sport!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2008, 3:17 PM
beanmedic's Avatar
beanmedic beanmedic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 215
It all comes down to the stakeholders.

I don't live downtown, nor have I ever lived there. As a potential future resident of downtown, and a frequent visitor, I believe my opinion counts. The outcome of any decision (e.g. traffic calming, LRT, BRT) will have an impact on me. I am a stakeholder. The same would be true of any individual who stands to gain or lose services or money based on the outcome of any decision that is made.

The 'us vs. them' is not downtown residents vs. non-residents. It is stakeholders vs. interested parties.

That's why these radio call-in shows are so frustrating. I don't want to hear the opinions of people who find it unacceptable to have an extra minute or two added to their trip through downtown in the unlikely event they decide to travel there at all.

I'm happy to debate all sorts of opinions and proposals with fellow stakeholders - but only stakeholders. Fortunately, it seems that most stakeholders are on the same page. Unfortunately, it seems that the Hamilton media continues to allow interested non-stakeholders to drown us out.

(blah, blah, blah.....gage park...blah, blah.)

Last edited by beanmedic; Apr 15, 2008 at 3:19 PM. Reason: Keeping it on topic
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #59  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2008, 3:27 PM
realcity's Avatar
realcity realcity is offline
Bruatalism gets no respec
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Williamsville NY
Posts: 4,059
Hi Mack welcome to the board.
__________________
Height restrictions and Set-backs are for Nimbys and the suburbs.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2008, 3:55 PM
Millstone Millstone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Port Colborne, ON
Posts: 889
hi Mack, you have a lot of reading to do, there's a lot of discussion here!
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Hamilton > Urban, Urban Design & Heritage Issues
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:27 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.