[Coquitlam] Fraser Mills

[WarrenC12]

You'll get highway noise 24/7 here I think.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Is this location really that bad? From a motorists perspective, exiting at Brunette and coming down Braid/United or using Lougheed/King Edward is pretty straight forward. Pending traffic it's only 5 minutes off the TCH which is comparable to Brentwood and Lougheed.

And it may be too far to walk, but with decent bus service or a bike there's quite a bit of easily accessible commercial on the other side of the TCH. It's also a very short bike ride to DT New West.

This is absolutely a car dependent location. There's hardly pedestrian or cycling infrastructure to get to and from Braid Station, nevermind downtown New West, you'll have to either zig zag through the industrial area before climbing up hill from Sapperton Landing to get to Columbia or you'll have to go up Braid Street into Sapperton and avoid the Brunette/Columbia intersection which is probably the most dangerous intersection in New West if you're a cyclist or pedestrian.

Maybe once Sapperton Green is developed this might make sense, but it's crazy this is somehow going forward first.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by mcj

This is absolutely a car dependent location. There's hardly pedestrian or cycling infrastructure to get to and from Braid Station, nevermind downtown New West, you'll have to either zig zag through the industrial area before climbing up hill from Sapperton Landing to get to Columbia or you'll have to go up Braid Street into Sapperton and avoid the Brunette/Columbia intersection which is probably the most dangerous intersection in New West if you're a cyclist or pedestrian.

Maybe once Sapperton Green is developed this might make sense, but it's crazy this is somehow going forward first.

Oh no, this is worse than Sapperton Green.
By a long shot.
Sapperton Green has a good connections to Braid and ton of other bus routes (Braid is a secondary bus hub) and is right on the highway exit.

Sapperton Green is probably delayed due to Amazon being there and not moving.

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Is this location really that bad? From a motorists perspective, exiting at Brunette and coming down Braid/United or using Lougheed/King Edward is pretty straight forward. Pending traffic it's only 5 minutes off the TCH which is comparable to Brentwood and Lougheed.

And it may be too far to walk, but with decent bus service or a bike there's quite a bit of easily accessible commercial on the other side of the TCH. It's also a very short bike ride to DT New West.

Edmonds (station area) and CityPlace are already condo ghettos to greater or lesser extents, so that's probably inevitable here.


Cars are 10 minutes at peak from Brunette due to congestion.
Most of Willowbghy is closer to either Langley Center or the freeway.

We're talking about almost Brookswood levels of inaccessibility here. Or Silver Valley.
Either way, it's not good, as both of those places are slow to develop due to inaccessibility (Maple Ridge's words.)
Even Vancouverites have their limits.

Bus service is only provided by 159 at a service rate of once every 30 minutes, and it only connects to the commercial district at the intersection of Brunette and Lougheed and the hub stations of Coquitlam and Braid at the ends. And PoCo Center.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by mcj

This is absolutely a car dependent location. There's hardly pedestrian or cycling infrastructure to get to and from Braid Station, nevermind downtown New West, you'll have to either zig zag through the industrial area before climbing up hill from Sapperton Landing to get to Columbia or you'll have to go up Braid Street into Sapperton and avoid the Brunette/Columbia intersection which is probably the most dangerous intersection in New West if you're a cyclist or pedestrian.

Maybe once Sapperton Green is developed this might make sense, but it's crazy this is somehow going forward first.

United and King Edward have a shared use pathway so there's actually a perfect bike route straight to Braid.

What's tricky is the gap between Braid and Cumberland if you want to get to the Brunette-Fraser Greenway. There's technically a CVG route but it is not direct and is hilly. If a share use pathway could fit on the east side of Brunette that would be perfect.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Bus service is only provided by 159 at a service rate of once every 30 minutes, and it only connects to the commercial district at the intersection of Brunette and Lougheed and the hub stations of Coquitlam and Braid at the ends.

791 and 159 both stop at United/King Edward. 791 is 20 peak/30 off-peak and 159 is 15 peak/30 off-peak and both could conceivably come more often if this development leads to more demand.

[madog222]

Beedie is funding new bus service until 50% of the development is complete, ridership at that point should sufficiently support the route. The plan is for 30min service frequency giving 15min service combined with the 159.


Image from Translink

[officedweller]

It's like River District in terms of location (but closer to rapid transit and a shopping area).

[mcj]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Oh no, this is worse than Sapperton Green.
By a long shot.
Sapperton Green has a good connections to Braid and ton of other bus routes (Braid is a secondary bus hub) and is right on the highway exit.

Sapperton Green is probably delayed due to Amazon being there and not moving.

Yeah that's what I meant, Sapperton Green is the better project, it absolutely should be going ahead before this to help bolster commercial in the area, and generally improve the Braid Station area.

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

United and King Edward have a shared use pathway so there's actually a perfect bike route straight to Braid.

What's tricky is the gap between Braid and Cumberland if you want to get to the Brunette-Fraser Greenway. There's technically a CVG route but it is not direct and is hilly. If a share use pathway could fit on the east side of Brunette that would be perfect.

Yeah they upgraded that, it's not amazing but it's a decent little multi-use path. Cyclists still are supposed to dismount for the bridge though. And at Brunette you've got to do a U all the way around the intersection since there isn't a legal crossing on the North side to get to Braid, or you've got to go all the way under the overpass, that's not exactly going to encourage walking or cycling to the station. A single link is what I would call hardly having ped/cycling infrastructure. Any development with thousands of units and 40+ storey towers should have multiple connections.

The connection to Downtown New West could be greatly improved by building the connection between Pier Park and Sapperton Landing, but unlike Sapperton Green, this project won't provide tax dollars to build that or upgrade/maintain any of the roads in New West residents here will be using.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by madog222

Beedie is funding new bus service until 50% of the development is complete, ridership at that point should sufficiently support the route. The plan is for 30min service frequency giving 15min service combined with the 159.


Image from Translink

The net sq ft (all uses) are similar for River District, though considering only residential, River District is about 2 mil. sq. ft. larger.

Also, using the TSPR,
100 bus also has a current population catchment of 59,000, and has more room to grow around Marine Dr (eg. Champlain Heights, Big Bend) and had a peak of around 10 min pre-River District.

159 has a peak of 30 min and a residential catchment of 40,000.
You're going to increase that to maybe 50,000 (5,000 homes), increasing service on 159 to maybe 15 min at peak by including industrial growth (which is still not great- you'd want 10 min at peak for frequent service).

Also, the fact the developers have to subsidize bus services is the problem here.

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

791 and 159 both stop at United/King Edward. 791 is 20 peak/30 off-peak and 159 is 15 peak/30 off-peak and both could conceivably come more often if this development leads to more demand.

791 is peak-only, which I don't count because they aren't reliable services.

[fromthelake]

https://www.westerninvestor.com/brit...market-7134034

“ Currently, the highlight of the property is a $10-million presentation centre, close to the Fraser Mills entrance off United Boulevard, that’s built using massed timber from B.C.

It will be open this fall, with two display suites, when sales for the first condo market tower, called Début, go live. It’s expected Tower 1 will be ready for move in by 2026.”

[fredinno]

Wonder what the prices on these condos will be?
I know demand in BC is high for residential, but I'd imagine there'd have to be quite a bit of discount vs most other condos to fill them up. Even with the ...uh... 'waterfront.'

[SpongeG]

I'd be concerned with the sinking that goes in that area, the IKEA has definitely shifted a lot. My friend's grandma said that the whole area was like a swamp when she was young and was surprised when they started to develop it. That gold course on the lump is a former Landfill.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

I'd be concerned with the sinking that goes in that area, the IKEA has definitely shifted a lot. My friend's grandma said that the whole area was like a swamp when she was young and was surprised when they started to develop it. That gold course on the lump is a former Landfill.

And there's a transfer station built next to the golf course now! Nice smell!

[Klazu]

I think fredinno and few others have said it all very well. A car-dependent condo ghetto which is not even conveniently accessible by car. The United Boulevard interchange is already congested as heck and the rebuild plan has me very worried with the small number of lanes, even if it is free-flowing (which is unlikely to help, as Highway 1 is a parking lot here on most mornings).

Combine this with building out of Sapperton Green and Maylardville, as well as the new Pattullo Bridge feeding more traffic due to the lack of McBride Connector, and the area is going to drown in traffic. Which is of course what New Westmister loves above all.

[jasonpark]

It's all about the price. If the condos are 20-30% cheaper than Lougheed, Edmonds, or Burquitlam, people will purchase there. Beedie is a reputable developer. People said the same thing about Marine Gateway. It was built next to the transfer station and that place was a dump before PCI redeveloped around the skytrain. Yet condos there are now $1200-1300 per sqft 5 years later.

I don't think there will be many people purchasing this development for investment purposes, but rather people that genuinely want to purchase something affordable. I think if they follow the River District model, it can succeed. But it will have to be WAY cheaper than river district.

That being said, out of all the mega master plan communities out there (like river district, Southgate city, etc), this is my least confident one.

[Klazu]

I see your point, but Marine Gateway is a decent commuter community with direct access to Skytrain and YVR. At least it has a mall, eventhough rest of the surrounding area is really appalling and yes, it smells like heck. We also live in a time where 20 people choose to cram into a single house with bunk beds to live affordably, so people living somewhere is not a good indicator of the success of the area.

I think they could mitigate a lot of the noise issue by increasing the height of the hill separating the waterfront from Highway 1, to make for an artificial sound barrier. That of course won't help with the smell or those living in the towers, but maybe it wouldn't be so awful to visit for a walk.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by jasonpark

It's all about the price. If the condos are 20-30% cheaper than Lougheed, Edmonds, or Burquitlam, people will purchase there. Beedie is a reputable developer. People said the same thing about Marine Gateway. It was built next to the transfer station and that place was a dump before PCI redeveloped around the skytrain. Yet condos there are now $1200-1300 per sqft 5 years later.

I don't think there will be many people purchasing this development for investment purposes, but rather people that genuinely want to purchase something affordable. I think if they follow the River District model, it can succeed. But it will have to be WAY cheaper than river district.

That being said, out of all the mega master plan communities out there (like river district, Southgate city, etc), this is my least confident one.

I mean, if Maple Ridge can't get people interested in living in high-rises (despite land also being cheap there too, and having better services), it raises the question of how low you'd really have to go, and if you could still make money at that point.

As I said earlier, there's a reason Beedie's been punting this one for 15 years.

Originally (earlier on), the project was actually mostly mid-rises, which would have increased the likelihood you could actually fill all the units (since people prefer mid-rises.)
The problem is that to make the economics work out as industrial rents rose (and not just give up on residential entirely), Beedie has been proposing higher and higher densities, until you get... this.
Brentwood condos in Nowhereville.


Also, if you go too low, then it not just becomes a condo ghetto, but an actual ghetto in 15 years.
I guess we need affordable housing, but that probably isn't a good way to do it.

Originally Posted by Klazu

I see your point, but Marine Gateway is a decent commuter community with direct access to Skytrain and YVR. At least it has a mall, eventhough rest of the surrounding area is really appalling and yes, it smells like heck. We also live in a time where 20 people choose to cram into a single house with bunk beds to live affordably, so people living somewhere is not a good indicator of the success of the area.

I think they could mitigate a lot of the noise issue by increasing the height of the hill separating the waterfront from Highway 1, to make for an artificial sound barrier. That of course won't help with the smell or those living in the towers, but maybe it wouldn't be so awful to visit for a walk.

I think that's why they have the industrial sections on the outside, protecting the condos inside from the sounds of Hwy 1.

[officedweller]

The bottom line is that people will buy in an area and with services and access to transit that meets their own personal needs.
If you are heavily reliant on transit and need to get to downtown Vancouver, you probably would not buy in either River District or at Fraser Mills.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The bottom line is that people will buy in an area and with services and access to transit that meets their own personal needs.
If you are heavily reliant on transit and need to get to downtown Vancouver, you probably would not buy in either River District or at Fraser Mills.

Maybe.
It raises the question why you would move there and not Langley or further east with more space and quiet, though.


Most of the inner suburbs have better access than Fraser Mills.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Maybe.
It raises the question why you would move there and not Langley or further east with more space and quiet, though.

Most of the inner suburbs have better access than Fraser Mills.

You'd have to balance your own needs and price.
People with kids would want a yard. Those without, not so much.
Fraser Mills could be closer to some workplaces without bridge traffic.
There's also a premium for a waterfront area/view.