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  #41  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 2:59 AM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
I have to wonder how many people seriously think people would "fail" such a test? You'd have to be pretty slow not to grasp what the expected answers are. Unless they are thinking of something more scientific like lie-detector tests ...
I don't know what the content of the test will be or how they will test your values or what the ideal set of values are that the newcomer's values will be measured against.
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  #42  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 3:03 AM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
I have to wonder how many people seriously think people would "fail" such a test? You'd have to be pretty slow not to grasp what the expected answers are. Unless they are thinking of something more scientific like lie-detector tests ...
This has always been my thought. So you either have something that is effectively useless or we are going full on Big Brother.

I mean in reality it’s always been more of a political talking point than anything realistic.
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  #43  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 3:26 AM
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At the end of the day , the vast majority of canadians support some kind of values test for immigrants. Perhaps asking how many people would fail such a test is asking the wrong question.

We can sit around and dream up why it wouldn't work, but perhaps considering the political inertia around the idea, maybe we should just give it a try and see what happens? What policy was perfect the second it was enacted? These things can adjust as we go.
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  #44  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 3:27 AM
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At the end of the day , the vast majority of canadians support some kind of values test for immigrants. Perhaps asking how many people would fail such a test is asking the wrong question.

We can sit around and dream up why it wouldn't work, but perhaps considering the political inertia around the idea, maybe we should just give it a try and see what happens? What policy was perfect the second it was enacted? These things can adjust as we go.
And if it needs to be discarded, let that happen.
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  #45  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 3:55 AM
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Sure, if it needs to be discarded, discard it. I don't think we would have a problem with it if it doesn't work at all.

If CAQ is making any mistakes at this point it might be over-emphasizing immigration as a policy pillar, imo
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  #46  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 3:55 AM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
I have to wonder how many people seriously think people would "fail" such a test? You'd have to be pretty slow not to grasp what the expected answers are.
There's the adversarial scenario where immigration officials try to figure out who is eventually going to be bad for Canada but there's also a marketing angle, and I think the marketing angle is much, much more important even though it gets less attention.

Some different ways to market Canada:

1) Come give us your money and invest here. In exchange we'll give you a passport and you'll have a fallback if things go south in your home country. Until then, do whatever you want.
2) We have lots of space available. Come establish an offshoot of your existing society here.
3) Leave your old country behind and come adopt the culture of our society.

There are many others. Some Canadians are okay with (2) and (3), and some only want (3). Most Canadians are not happy with (1) but we have that stream too.

I don't know what form a values test would take but it could be related to broadcasting what we want out of immigration. It won't deter people who secretly want to bring down our society but it might deter people who are coming in good faith but feel like they wouldn't be a good fit, in some cases because they might not be able to tolerate what is already allowed here.

One problem with this is that everybody has a different idea of what the values should be, and the lowest common denominator isn't very meaningful. Maybe it would be something about not killing people, while I am guessing most immigrants already know. You might get something about gender equality (Kelly Leitch's "men and women are equal" was already confusing and problematic). You maaaaybe would get something about sexual orientation or non-standard gender expression. There would probably be nothing about religion.
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  #47  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 4:29 AM
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One thing I don't know about is a scenario like this. The person I knew came over on the investor program through Quebec. He has been here about 8 years or so now. He reached the point where he could apply for citizenship and really thought about it and asked people at work if it was worth finishing. He ended up deciding the only thing he cannot do here is Vote, but every other benefit of Canada is available to him so he will remain a PR and this way he can retain his Korean passport and retire back there if he decides to do that, I think that he will eventually move back there but he enjoys the lifestyle he can have in Canada and will take advantage of it and be able to go back to Korea and take advantage of things there too. For instance he had to get some dental work done and he looked into at a dentist here and it was just over $2000 for the work. He was able to fly back to Korea and get the work done there for well under $2000 so he did that. His prescription there was $3 as he still gets medical benefits.

I am sure there are many others like that who come here for the advantages and yet don't really commit to being fully Canadian and the way the system is it's allowed.
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  #48  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 9:09 AM
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Originally Posted by once View Post
Why is it immigration levels can only politically be talked about going up? Why is it impossible for there to be benefits with immigration going down? Why jump directly to xenophobia? Again, have you been to quebec? Have you lived here? There is far less xenophobia in Quebec then there is in atlantic provinces (come from away!) or Vancouver (foriegners are ruining this place!).
That's not accurate. We can argue in the case of Atlantic Canada that widespread acceptance is the result of simply having relatively little immigration, but the region is still by a considerable margin the most accepting of immigrants in the country.

St. John's, Victoria top list of most open cities, Calgary, Oshawa come in at bottom based on CP/Ekos research

Quote:
At a time in world history marked by a global trend towards slamming doors on immigration in the face of mounting economic insecurity, new polling by The Canadian Press/Ekos Politics suggests St. John's is Canada's most "open" city, where populist politics — including support for restrictions on newcomers and resistance to free trade and globalization — are least likely to thrive.

...

And yet St. John's — along with Victoria, B.C., another fairly white seaside destination — tops the ranks of Canada's most open cities, Graves said. At the other end of the spectrum, the surveys suggest, are Oshawa, Ont., and Calgary, where "closed" attitudes and tepid support for immigration are spurred by a persistent and deepening fear of a worsening economy.

"Maybe it's the ocean having kind of a more cosmopolitan influence on the outlook of people," Graves said. "A lot of people come through. It's a big port. We see both people in British Columbia and the Atlantic tend to be more open. It's peculiar."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfo...city-1.4509997

*****

As for CFA, some people do take offense and there are local social justice movements to try to convince people to abandon the word. It does separate people in the province into "us and them", but there is an us and a them - and they're quite obvious, so...? At least it's "egalitarian" in terms of how it is applied - doesn't matter if you're from Nova Scotia or Nigeria, Oshawa or Osaka, you are a CFA here.
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  #49  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
There's the adversarial scenario where immigration officials try to figure out who is eventually going to be bad for Canada but there's also a marketing angle, and I think the marketing angle is much, much more important even though it gets less attention.

Some different ways to market Canada:

1) Come give us your money and invest here. In exchange we'll give you a passport and you'll have a fallback if things go south in your home country. Until then, do whatever you want.
2) We have lots of space available. Come establish an offshoot of your existing society here.
3) Leave your old country behind and come adopt the culture of our society.

There are many others. Some Canadians are okay with (2) and (3), and some only want (3). Most Canadians are not happy with (1) but we have that stream too.

I don't know what form a values test would take but it could be related to broadcasting what we want out of immigration. It won't deter people who secretly want to bring down our society but it might deter people who are coming in good faith but feel like they wouldn't be a good fit, in some cases because they might not be able to tolerate what is already allowed here.

One problem with this is that everybody has a different idea of what the values should be, and the lowest common denominator isn't very meaningful. Maybe it would be something about not killing people, while I am guessing most immigrants already know. You might get something about gender equality (Kelly Leitch's "men and women are equal" was already confusing and problematic). You maaaaybe would get something about sexual orientation or non-standard gender expression. There would probably be nothing about religion.
Yes, there is definitely a "line in the sand" aspect that's behind the idea of this test. It wouldn't be foolproof but it might make some people think. At least that's likely what its proponents have in mind.
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  #50  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 11:24 AM
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I happen to find fear mongering, intolerant, xenophobes to be insulting. So I mean, to each their own.
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
No, it's just the classic Quebecois xenophobia rearing its head. .
Which argument is more of a sure thing?

Arguing that large varied population groups made up of millions of people are primarily or wholly xenophobic?

OR

That the actual xenophobes are those who label large varied population groups made up of millions of people (and who just happen to be different from their own) as primarily or wholly xenophobic?
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  #51  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
One of the main premises of the article is false: it's not true that all immigrants (especially pre-1976) eventually learned French naturally by osmosis. Many did not and even many of their kids and grandkids did not.

This is less and less the case today - almost to the point of being a non-factor - but the lingering sociological and sociocultural effects of this are still present and visible (or audible) to anyone who lives in Quebec (and especially Montreal).
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  #52  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 11:34 AM
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May as well shut down the Justin Trudeau thread. We have a new home for all of SSP Canada's thinly veiled racism.
Yes, I know. The thinly-veiled racism directed at francophone Québécois in this thread could also qualify for The Ugly Canada thread. Thanks for drawing our attention to that.
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  #53  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 11:51 AM
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Which province are you from and exactly how much time have you spent in Quebec? Just curious.

Quebec faces unique immigration concerns that tend not to surface in other parts of canada. Integration issues. The immigration make up into quebec is much different than other places in Canada. Our top countries tend to be places like France & french speaking countries in africa like Algeria. As such, the dynamic regarding immigration tends to take on a different character from the rest of canada, as most immigrants come from places like Philippines. Quebec also has a long tail of mish mash countries we accept immigrants from, many countries which teach english or english as second language. This presents unique integration problems with integration into quebec's society.

I don't say this to say negative things about any country in particular, only to mention that unless you are actually in quebec, you aren't really qualified to speak on the unique immigration challenges surrounding quebec.

It may be cruel to kick someone out after 3 years of attempting to build a life, but what is the quality of that life if they can't even speak our language to a basic ability? We aren't hiding the requirements. If you can't learn, maybe you will have more success elsewhere.

Why is it immigration levels can only politically be talked about going up? Why is it impossible for there to be benefits with immigration going down? Why jump directly to xenophobia? Again, have you been to quebec? Have you lived here? There is far less xenophobia in Quebec then there is in atlantic provinces (come from away!) or Vancouver (foriegners are ruining this place!).

This is a pragmatic policy, very reasonable, and the only people who could possibly be offended are the irrational ones jumping to xenophobia any time anyone commits the thought crime of considering lowering immigration.
On one hand you say I can't speak about Quebec unless I'm from there. On the other you deride "come from away" attitudes in Atlantic Canada. Do you not understand that your attitude is emblematic of exactly what you're criticizing?

In any case, I have lived in Quebec, for three years. And I have many friends there an visit often. It's a great place. To pretend that it doesn't have a problem with cultural insularity manifesting as racism is willful blindness.

(Also, there's no test we can run to determine exactly how xenophobic a society is, but I will say that the idea that Atlantic Canadians are mistrustful of outsiders is a vastly overblown stereotype.)
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  #54  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Which argument is more of a sure thing?

Arguing that large varied population groups made up of millions of people are primarily or wholly xenophobic?

OR

That the actual xenophobes are those who label large varied population groups made up of millions of people (and who just happen to be different from their own) as primarily or wholly xenophobic?
I didn't say all Quebeckers are xenophobic; I said that Quebec society in general has a noticeable problem with irrational xenophobia.

Which is true.
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  #55  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Couple questions for you:

1) Have you looked at your own data?

2) Do you have the ability to plot a linear regression over the last 30 years? (Or do you need me to do it for you?)
I would love for you to do it. When I look at the data over the past 30-40 years I see a decline of French as mother-tongue in both Quebec and Canada, but the decline is so marginal in Quebec that to claim there's s real threat to the language seems pretty out there. I'm sure if you were to plot out a regression analysis it would show exactly that.

Last edited by Drybrain; Sep 17, 2018 at 12:08 PM.
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  #56  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 12:23 PM
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I didn't say all Quebeckers are xenophobic; I said that Quebec society in general has a noticeable problem with irrational xenophobia.

Which is true.
It is true.

The xenophobia tends to be greatest in areas of the province least likely to even come in contact with an Anglophone (the Saguenay for example).

Quebec City, Montreal and Gatineau would be the least xenophobic.

Quebec City knows that it's tourism bread is buttered with visiting Anglophones, and it doesn't want to jeopardize this. At least in the old city, English is tolerated.

Montreal is a world city, and is well aware that the international language is English. To maintain it's commercial stature, many Montreal francophones will do their best to learn English by whatever illegal means possible (with perhaps the exception of the denizens on the east end). Having about 750,000 Anglophones in the city means that English is difficult to ignore too.

Gatineau is a little bit more tolerant of Anglophones too, mostly because Ottawa is right next door.

In the rural areas, only the heart of the townships, the Chateauguay region and the Pontiac region still have any English presence. This is rapidly disappearing however. I know. My sister and brother-in-law live in rural Quebec. He's a United Church minister and has been presiding over the demise of rural pastoral charges in the province for the last 35 years, first in Howick (Chateauguay), then Lachute and then the townships (they currently live in Sutton). The average age of their congregation is about 78 years old.
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  #57  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Yes, there is definitely a "line in the sand" aspect that's behind the idea of this test. It wouldn't be foolproof but it might make some people think. At least that's likely what its proponents have in mind.
It seems to me that any issues (if there indeed are any - I'm not convinced that there actually is an issue) could be most effectively addressed by simply ensuring that immigrants are well informed about what to expect about their lives in Canada (i.e. the sort of information that they seem to receive only later in the process). The most effective method, but also by far the most expensive, would be to ensure that every prospective immigrant is interviewed by an immigration officer prior to being accepted.
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  #58  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 1:16 PM
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It is true.

The xenophobia tends to be greatest in areas of the province least likely to even come in contact with an Anglophone (the Saguenay for example).

Quebec City, Montreal and Gatineau would be the least xenophobic.

Quebec City knows that it's tourism bread is buttered with visiting Anglophones, and it doesn't want to jeopardize this. At least in the old city, English is tolerated.

Montreal is a world city, and is well aware that the international language is English. To maintain it's commercial stature, many Montreal francophones will do their best to learn English by whatever illegal means possible (with perhaps the exception of the denizens on the east end). Having about 750,000 Anglophones in the city means that English is difficult to ignore too.

Gatineau is a little bit more tolerant of Anglophones too, mostly because Ottawa is right next door.

In the rural areas, only the heart of the townships, the Chateauguay region and the Pontiac region still have any English presence. This is rapidly disappearing however. I know. My sister and brother-in-law live in rural Quebec. He's a United Church minister and has been presiding over the demise of rural pastoral charges in the province for the last 35 years, first in Howick (Chateauguay), then Lachute and then the townships (they currently live in Sutton). The average age of their congregation is about 78 years old.
Attitude towards anglophones and their language is far from the only "marker" for xenophobia.

Diversity =/= "the English language"

Similarly, you have Anglo-Canadians who are super open to turbans and niqabs and such, but who have lots of "issues" with French Canadians. Are they "xenophobic" because they are francophobic, or is their openness to conservative Sikhism and Islam sufficient to win them a "pass"?
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  #59  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 1:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
I didn't say all Quebeckers are xenophobic; I said that Quebec society in general has a noticeable problem with irrational xenophobia.

Which is true.
As a journalist (which I believe you are) you should be keenly aware of the nuances in language. You used the term "Québécois xenophobia" BTW.

"Quebec" in Canada is a code word for an easily identifiable group of people (French Canadians), just as "Detroit" is a code word in the U.S. for "African-Americans".

I've been noticing more and more bias (albeit subtle) toward Quebec and francophones in your posts of late. I'd expect better from somewhere who is in your line of work.
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  #60  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 1:39 PM
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As a journalist (which I believe you are) you should be keenly aware of the nuances in language. You used the term "Québécois xenophobia" BTW.

"Quebec" in Canada is a code word for an easily identifiable group of people (French Canadians), just as "Detroit" is a code word in the U.S. for "African-Americans".

I've been noticing more and more bias (albeit subtle) toward Quebec and francophones in your posts of late. I'd expect better from somewhere who is in your line of work.
I understand why that's a sensitive statement, and I apologize. I would still stand by the truth of it (there is a problem with this in the province's culture) but it's also easy to get too inflammatory and overstate it.
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