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  #41  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2018, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
A third Canadian has been detained in China. This is really out of hand.
Global Affairs is being extremely remiss in not issuing a travel advisory for Canadians going to China. It makes us look weak.
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  #42  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2018, 8:15 PM
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Global Affairs is being extremely remiss in not issuing a travel advisory for Canadians going to China. It makes us look weak.
Agreed and shame on them for not doing it. It is Foreign Affairs responsibility to keep Canadians safe abroad and one of the primary ways it does this is by warning Canadians about the potential dangers of travelling to those countries in the first place.

While I do understand Ottawa's difficult predicament as no doubt the Chinese have threatened even more kidnappings if Ottawa was to put out an advisory, they primary concern is for Canadians and they can't allow 3 hostages to undermine the safety of the travelling public.
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  #43  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2018, 8:54 PM
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I think the immediate way out of this is mess to allow Meng to return to China, thus denying the extradition request on the basis that the US President's comments constituted political interference in the judicial process. Next, the Canadian hostages are released. Shortly thereafter the Canadian government either kicks Huawei out of the country, or at a minimum bans them from supplying high level telecom equipment.
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  #44  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2018, 9:11 PM
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I think the immediate way out of this is mess to allow Meng to return to China, thus denying the extradition request on the basis that the US President's comments constituted political interference in the judicial process. Next, the Canadian hostages are released. Shortly thereafter the Canadian government either kicks Huawei out of the country, or at a minimum bans them from supplying high level telecom equipment.
It should be up to the judicial system to decide if Trump's comments constitute interference, no point having yet another politician getting involved.

And if China keeps seizing Canadians, we should start seizing the assets of Chinese nationals in Canada, starting with real estate.
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  #45  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2018, 9:23 PM
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It should be up to the judicial system to decide if Trump's comments constitute interference, no point having yet another politician getting involved.

And if China keeps seizing Canadians, we should start seizing the assets of Chinese nationals in Canada, starting with real estate.
I wasn't insinuating political interference. Just a judge understanding what should happen.
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  #46  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2018, 9:34 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext;8414329[B
It should be up to the judicial system to decide if Trump's comments constitute interference, no point having yet another politician getting involved.

And if China keeps seizing Canadians, we should start seizing the assets of Chinese nationals in Canada, starting with real estate.
It is. The initial extradition hearing should take place by mid-February.

Last edited by kwoldtimer; Dec 19, 2018 at 10:44 PM.
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  #47  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2018, 9:36 PM
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Agreed and shame on them for not doing it. It is Foreign Affairs responsibility to keep Canadians safe abroad and one of the primary ways it does this is by warning Canadians about the potential dangers of travelling to those countries in the first place.

While I do understand Ottawa's difficult predicament as no doubt the Chinese have threatened even more kidnappings if Ottawa was to put out an advisory, they primary concern is for Canadians and they can't allow 3 hostages to undermine the safety of the travelling public.
The travel advisory for China already refers to detention during the investigation phase, as well as the risk of detention for "endangering national security".

Last edited by kwoldtimer; Dec 20, 2018 at 3:03 AM.
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  #48  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2018, 9:47 PM
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Would it be excessive to worry about WWIII because of this? It seems that China's losing its cool.
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  #49  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2018, 9:57 PM
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Would it be excessive to worry about WWIII because of this? It seems that China's losing its cool.
It won't be a WW, it will be limited to East/SEAsia/South China Sea (unless it goes nuclear, then all bets are off) and you'll have to wait at least 15 to 20 years for it, if not more.
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  #50  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2018, 10:32 PM
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It is. The initial extradition hearing should take place by mid-February.
I know it is, I was responding to someeone advocating that the government get involved to release Meng.

I fully believe Huawei is guilty. The US has been going after other sanction evaders as well, she isn't the only one.

Standard Chartered Plc has already paid a painful penalty for secretly moving billions of dollars through the US on behalf of Iranian clients, in violation of sanctions. But a sweeping investigation has found evidence suggesting that the bank's Iranian business was more extensive than it admitted, according to five people familiar with the matter.

Now US authorities are weighing a criminal penalty against Standard Chartered and individual employees, the people said, who requested anonymity to speak about the probe....

....
But at the same time, the Justice Department has promoted smaller penalties for corporate misconduct, while prioritizing the prosecution of individuals. The Obama administration's sanctions enforcement policy was characterized by big fines but rarely criminal charges for companies or their executives, leading to criticism that it wasn't holding financial executives to account for wrongdoing.

Since 2009, the US has brought about three dozen cases against financial firms for doing business with or handling funds linked to sanctioned countries and individuals - primarily Iran, Sudan and Cuba. Almost all of those cases were resolved without criminal charges or through deferred-prosecution agreements, like the one reached with Standard Chartered in 2012...


https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/ban...tions-breaches
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  #51  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2018, 11:24 PM
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What annoys me about Meng's arrest is that she is hardly the only corporate executive to have done what she supposedly did. The fact they're going after to Huawei in particular and a Chinese executive in general, when there are US executives who have done similar to what she's accused of doing who haven't faced any criminal punishment, is highly political and the timing makes it more obvious. Now Canadian citizens are in danger in China as a result of this political suck-uppery. Given that Trudeau / Canadian government knew several days in advance that Meng was going to be arrested if she came to Canada, somebody who was thinking straight should have quietly passed a warning on to Huawei so that she didn't come to Canada, and this whole shit show could have been avoided.

It was totally obvious that China was going to react this way - they always tend to use a sledge hammer when a flyswatter will do (which is exactly what the situation in Xinjiang is - a sledgehammer reaction to Uighur terrorist / separatist activity).
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  #52  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2018, 11:39 PM
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China is a scourge and has been, without exception, nothing but trouble for the last 30 years and has added nothing to the human condition since it's industrialization began. The sooner the West can bring this tyranical nation to it's economic and political knees, the safer this planet will become.
700 million people lifted out of poverty in the past 30 years is 'adding nothing to the human condition'? I guarantee if you ask the average Zhou in China today if they're better off today than they were 30 years ago they'll say yes.

As far as foreign policy goes - China is aggressive? Look at how many governments the US government has toppled and how many wars the US has been involved in since the end of the second world war. US foreign policy is WAY more aggressive than China's.
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  #53  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 12:08 AM
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It was totally obvious that China was going to react this way - they always tend to use a sledge hammer when a flyswatter will do (which is exactly what the situation in Xinjiang is - a sledgehammer reaction to Uighur terrorist / separatist activity).
The choice of sledgehammer is an odd one though. A former junior-level official working in a junior level job and an eccentric tour operator are people of no consequence (who will now get book deals). The actions weaken Trudeau, who is the most sinophile of Western leaders and create a general chill for foreigners considering visiting or living in China. China comes across looking weak and erratic
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  #54  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 12:33 AM
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What annoys me about Meng's arrest is that she is hardly the only corporate executive to have done what she supposedly did. The fact they're going after to Huawei in particular and a Chinese executive in general, when there are US executives who have done similar to what she's accused of doing who haven't faced any criminal punishment, is highly political and the timing makes it more obvious. Now Canadian citizens are in danger in China as a result of this political suck-uppery. Given that Trudeau / Canadian government knew several days in advance that Meng was going to be arrested if she came to Canada, somebody who was thinking straight should have quietly passed a warning on to Huawei so that she didn't come to Canada, and this whole shit show could have been avoided.

It was totally obvious that China was going to react this way - they always tend to use a sledge hammer when a flyswatter will do (which is exactly what the situation in Xinjiang is - a sledgehammer reaction to Uighur terrorist / separatist activity).
As I posted right above you, they have gone after other nationalities.

Are you advocating that someone inside the Canadian government should have acted as a spy for the PRC and tipped them off Meng's detention was imminent?

Huawei and Chinese tech in general have nobody but themselves to blame. With practices like inserting spyware into motherboards they painted a target on their back. Perhaps you'll be able to read this from where you are now, perhaps not:

The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate U.S. Companies

The attack by Chinese spies reached almost 30 U.S. companies, including Amazon and Apple, by compromising America’s technology supply chain, according to extensive interviews with government and corporate sources.

Nested on the servers’ motherboards, the testers found a tiny microchip, not much bigger than a grain of rice, that wasn’t part of the boards’ original design. Amazon reported the discovery to U.S. authorities, sending a shudder through the intelligence community. Elemental’s servers could be found in Department of Defense data centers, the CIA’s drone operations, and the onboard networks of Navy warships. And Elemental was just one of hundreds of Supermicro customers.

During the ensuing top-secret probe, which remains open more than three years later, investigators determined that the chips allowed the attackers to create a stealth doorway into any network that included the altered machines. Multiple people familiar with the matter say investigators found that the chips had been inserted at factories run by manufacturing subcontractors in China...

...One country in particular has an advantage executing this kind of attack: China, which by some estimates makes 75 percent of the world’s mobile phones and 90 percent of its PCs. Still, to actually accomplish a seeding attack would mean developing a deep understanding of a product’s design, manipulating components at the factory, and ensuring that the doctored devices made it through the global logistics chain to the desired location—a feat akin to throwing a stick in the Yangtze River upstream from Shanghai and ensuring that it washes ashore in Seattle. “Having a well-done, nation-state-level hardware implant surface would be like witnessing a unicorn jumping over a rainbow,” says Joe Grand, a hardware hacker and the founder of Grand Idea Studio Inc. “Hardware is just so far off the radar, it’s almost treated like black magic.”


But that’s just what U.S. investigators found: The chips had been inserted during the manufacturing process, two officials say, by operatives from a unit of the People’s Liberation Army. In Supermicro, China’s spies appear to have found a perfect conduit for what U.S. officials now describe as the most significant supply chain attack known to have been carried out against American companies....


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...-top-companies
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  #55  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 1:46 AM
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As I posted right above you, they have gone after other nationalities.

Are you advocating that someone inside the Canadian government should have acted as a spy for the PRC and tipped them off Meng's detention was imminent?

Huawei and Chinese tech in general have nobody but themselves to blame. With practices like inserting spyware into motherboards they painted a target on their back. Perhaps you'll be able to read this from where you are now, perhaps not:

The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate U.S. Companies

The attack by Chinese spies reached almost 30 U.S. companies, including Amazon and Apple, by compromising America’s technology supply chain, according to extensive interviews with government and corporate sources.

Nested on the servers’ motherboards, the testers found a tiny microchip, not much bigger than a grain of rice, that wasn’t part of the boards’ original design. Amazon reported the discovery to U.S. authorities, sending a shudder through the intelligence community. Elemental’s servers could be found in Department of Defense data centers, the CIA’s drone operations, and the onboard networks of Navy warships. And Elemental was just one of hundreds of Supermicro customers.

During the ensuing top-secret probe, which remains open more than three years later, investigators determined that the chips allowed the attackers to create a stealth doorway into any network that included the altered machines. Multiple people familiar with the matter say investigators found that the chips had been inserted at factories run by manufacturing subcontractors in China...

...One country in particular has an advantage executing this kind of attack: China, which by some estimates makes 75 percent of the world’s mobile phones and 90 percent of its PCs. Still, to actually accomplish a seeding attack would mean developing a deep understanding of a product’s design, manipulating components at the factory, and ensuring that the doctored devices made it through the global logistics chain to the desired location—a feat akin to throwing a stick in the Yangtze River upstream from Shanghai and ensuring that it washes ashore in Seattle. “Having a well-done, nation-state-level hardware implant surface would be like witnessing a unicorn jumping over a rainbow,” says Joe Grand, a hardware hacker and the founder of Grand Idea Studio Inc. “Hardware is just so far off the radar, it’s almost treated like black magic.”


But that’s just what U.S. investigators found: The chips had been inserted during the manufacturing process, two officials say, by operatives from a unit of the People’s Liberation Army. In Supermicro, China’s spies appear to have found a perfect conduit for what U.S. officials now describe as the most significant supply chain attack known to have been carried out against American companies....


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...-top-companies

Interesting that you'd choose that particular article, considering that it's been proven to be entirely false.

https://arstechnica.com/information-...ts-with-audit/

Not to mention, a German watchdog has recently completed an audit and found no proof of any security threat from Huawei networking equipment for 5G.

https://www.totaltele.com/501803/Ger...at-from-Huawei

All I've seen when it comes to Huawei and other Chinese mobile phone manufacturers is speculation and allegation (and of course outright fabrication as in the case of the Super Micro story) - there has never been any proof. To me it seems like a 'red scare' all over again.

And yes, I am advocating that the government should have quietly tipped off Huawei (not the Chinese government, Huawei). They should have forseen the shitstorm that was going to result, and the Chinese response has been entirely predictable. Is the (clearly politically influenced) arrest of one Chinese executive worth all the trouble that it has caused for Canada now and most likely in the future? Note that I am not defending China's response here, only stating as a fact that it was obviously going to happen and Canada should have realized that.
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  #56  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 1:50 AM
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Interesting that you'd choose that particular article, considering that it's been proven to be entirely false.

https://arstechnica.com/information-...ts-with-audit/

Not to mention, a German watchdog has recently completed an audit and found no proof of any security threat from Huawei networking equipment for 5G.

https://www.totaltele.com/501803/Ger...at-from-Huawei

All I've seen when it comes to Huawei and other Chinese mobile phone manufacturers is speculation and allegation (and of course outright fabrication as in the case of the Super Micro story) - there has never been any proof. To me it seems like a 'red scare' all over again.

And yes, I am advocating that the government should have quietly tipped off Huawei (not the Chinese government, Huawei). They should have forseen the shitstorm that was going to result, and the Chinese response has been entirely predictable. Is the (clearly politically influenced) arrest of one Chinese executive worth all the trouble that it has caused for Canada now and most likely in the future? Note that I am not defending China's response here, only stating as a fact that it was obviously going to happen and Canada should have realized that.
Call me when Bloomberg prints a retraction.
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  #57  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 1:57 AM
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Call me when Bloomberg prints a retraction.
If they don't, or they don't provide their sources to back up their story, then they've lost all credibility as a news organization. At this point I pretty much question everything the western media prints about China, because there are so many unproven allegations and outright falsehoods that it's not even funny.

For the record, I don't trust Xinhua, CCTV, or any other Chinese media any more than that. There's basically no news organization I trust to print objective news about China these days, which kind of sucks.
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  #58  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 2:07 AM
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What annoys me about Meng's arrest is that she is hardly the only corporate executive to have done what she supposedly did. The fact they're going after to Huawei in particular and a Chinese executive in general, when there are US executives who have done similar to what she's accused of doing who haven't faced any criminal punishment, is highly political and the timing makes it more obvious. Now Canadian citizens are in danger in China as a result of this political suck-uppery. Given that Trudeau / Canadian government knew several days in advance that Meng was going to be arrested if she came to Canada, somebody who was thinking straight should have quietly passed a warning on to Huawei so that she didn't come to Canada, and this whole shit show could have been avoided.

It was totally obvious that China was going to react this way - they always tend to use a sledge hammer when a flyswatter will do (which is exactly what the situation in Xinjiang is - a sledgehammer reaction to Uighur terrorist / separatist activity).
Fully agree. Due to the timing, this was obviously a manoeuvre to gain leverage in trade negotiations. As I posted early, amateur hour in Ottawa continues.
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  #59  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 5:18 AM
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Looks like the third Canadian 'detained' is just someone who got a crappy employer and ran into visa problems as a result.

https://nationalpost.com/news/third-...-returned-home

It happens. I blame her employer for screwing her over, but I'd also blame her for not getting the hell out of dodge when the first position was found to be taken by someone else. Too many unscrupulous employers in China, and she just got unlucky - but if she'd done her homework before she came here she'd have known to get out as soon as they tried to relocate her to another city.

Hilarious seeing the Conservative MP complaining about China enforcing its visa rules, given that they've taken a hard long on immigration and certainly wouldn't be in favour of someone working on a tourist visa in Canada - but when China enforces its own entirely justifiable visa rules they get all up in arms.
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  #60  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 2:02 PM
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And if China keeps seizing Canadians, we should start seizing the assets of Chinese nationals in Canada, starting with real estate.
That’s kind of fiendishly satisfying, I’ll admit, but the seizure of property over a political spat would set very dangerous precedent, and would probably pave the way for more authoritarianism. We have a common law system based on precedent and can’t play by the same “rules” as the Chinese.
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