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View Poll Results: Should Turks and Caicos join Canada?
Yes 58 69.05%
No 26 30.95%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 1:28 AM
The S'toon Goon The S'toon Goon is offline
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I am not necessarily on board with it, but if it were to join I would imagine it could strongly increase Canadian exports to some of the other islands.

Also, how exactly did Newfoundland become apart of Canada? I know it was also part of Britain at one point and a vote happened. But how did that situation not change the constitution?
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  #62  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 1:29 AM
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Originally Posted by CivicBlues View Post
Isn't that what they are trying to do with Vancouver? I mean importing a messload of Chinese was the first step in getting Singapore off the ground

Geography would be one of the main reasons why a Singapore in present day Canada wouldn't really form. We're a long way from everywhere else that's not named the United States. T&C, as I stated previously, is pretty strategically located between Europe and the Panama Canal.
So you want to annex TC to bring in lots of Chinese people to work in plantations?

I don’t know anything about the shipping industry, but I would think if there was value in a major port on an Island between Europe and the canal somebody would have built one.

Singapore is connected by road and rail to the Asian mainland, is on one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world, as a super business-friendly authoritarian regime, as access to cheap foreign labour who live in deplorable conditions (no pesky rights to get in the way) and has low taxes. A Canadian ruled TC would have none of these things.
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  #63  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 1:31 AM
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Originally Posted by The S'toon Goon View Post
I am not necessarily on board with it, but if it were to join I would imagine it could strongly increase Canadian exports to some of the other islands.

Also, how exactly did Newfoundland become apart of Canada? I know it was also part of Britain at one point and a vote happened. But how did that situation not change the constitution?
Actually Newfoundland was pretty much independent before it wasn’t.

The Constitution at the time was controlled by Britain. Westminster passed the necessary amendments.
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  #64  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 1:48 AM
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More research is needed into this.

Canada would have to think drastically different to obtain a Caribbean island. It would be like a Canadian Florida in terms of immigration problems. However, the Brits and the French seem very successful in being able to control their territories so that the entire Caribbean doesn't empty out onto them.

More research is necessary, specifically about how the French and Brits are able to comfortably keep their overseas territories under a lawful control that doesn't allow asylum seekers to completely take advantage of a flawed system.

I voted yes because I think that with an air of caution, there could be more opportunities and bounty to gain.
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  #65  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 2:06 AM
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Originally Posted by The S'toon Goon View Post
I am not necessarily on board with it, but if it were to join I would imagine it could strongly increase Canadian exports to some of the other islands.

Also, how exactly did Newfoundland become apart of Canada? I know it was also part of Britain at one point and a vote happened. But how did that situation not change the constitution?
It didn't change the constitution as such, just added to it. We have what's known as the Terms of Union. It's unheard of in Canada, in my experience, but it's well-known here. Just this week, for example, the opposition Progressive Conservative leader described the Atlantic Accord as the most important piece of legislation in terms of our relationship with Canada since the Terms of Union.

Those terms were negotiated by the (I'm now inserting my opinion) pig-farming idiots (my opinion is now concluded) who led us into Confederation so they devote a lot of time to things like our right to sell yellow margarine (in Canada at the time, margarine was not allowed to be yellow so it wouldn't be confused with butter). They definitely gave Ottawa control of our fishery, they may have given Ottawa control of our airspace (Canada has earned tens of billions from the fees that transatlantic flights pay as they all pass over Newfoundland), this comes up every few years with one side saying we should get that money, the other saying we gave it to Canada.

But they still managed to negotiate a half dozen or so things that would be provincial jurisdiction here, but were federal jurisdiction in all other provinces. Those have been slowly chipped away. One of the last was just given up during CETA negotiations. The EU insisted we remove our MPRs (minimum processing requirements - meaning no one can harvest fish in our waters without landing a certain percentage at local fish plants for value-added, secondary processing). Canada agreed to pay us $400 million to give up that right, which no other province had. We did. Once it was all said and done, Canada backtracked due to pressure from other provinces (which gave up nothing) and made the $400 million fund available to all Atlantic Canada and Quebec. Other ones we've given up to secure better trade deals for Ontario cars, etc. It's been a shit show.

So now we're basically just a generic province. Which serves the Confederates right. The only thing that keeps me going is knowing Joey Smallwood, who very much saw our joining as a union of two countries, is rolling his grave at the reality that ours was just absorbed by the larger one. I hope that traitor never finds peace.

<end rant>

So, yeah... Canada and Newfoundland/Britain negotiated a Terms of Union, which is a constitutional document. Lots of funny little oddities there. For example, the Catholic Church declared seal to be fish in Newfoundland so locals could eat it on Fridays. Canada had to accept that for us to join, despite government having zero role in that rule.
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  #66  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 2:28 AM
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Actually it even tends to go farther than this. It's not uncommon for people to argue that nationality shouldn't mean anything, and that it's bad to discriminate between people born in Canada or people born elsewhere.

The problem with this is that nationality does matter around the world whether we like it or not. If Canada stops looking after Canadians specifically then Canadians will be some of the worst off in the world, because many other populations have nation states looking out for them to varying degrees.

Let's say a rich guy decided he dislikes the notion of private property and he gives away his stuff. Does he usher in a new era of global egalitarianism or do people show up, cart it all away, and keep it for themselves?
Excellent comment.
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  #67  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 2:33 AM
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Originally Posted by CivicBlues View Post
Hardly. In all my readings about this scheme the specter of Haitian refugees flooding Canada has never come up. In this case why isn't Puerto Rico being inundated? Why aren't the US Virgin Islands? His comment, while easy to overlook the 1st time belies it's true intention when repeated a 2nd time in less than a day not to mention his notorious post history wrt race relations.
Yes I would like to know more about why that is.

Certainly in Spain's enclaves of Melilla and Ceuta in North Africa you have tons of people jumping over fences every day to land on EU soil (technically).
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  #68  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 6:01 AM
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The idea of having T&C join as part of Nova Scotia offers an easy way of keeping the Haitian Hordes at bay, all we have to do is build a ~20 km "sea-to-sea" wall from Fundy Bay to the Northumberland Strait.
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  #69  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 6:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CivicBlues View Post
Whelp there you have it: ssiguy has stated not once, but twice that his distaste of scary black refugees to be the major sticking point for confederation with a Caribbean island.

Time to pack it in boys!
Spare me the juvenile race baiting crap. It is a valid concern and not the same as Puerto Rico. Haiti is the poorest and least developed country in the Western Hemisphere. Haitians would not go to Puerto Rico because they speak Spanish and the US speaks English. Haiti is unique in that it speaks French which is why there is a large Haitian population in Canada but almost exclusively in Quebec.

Also if my comment, as you imply, is based on my fear of black people then why did I say I would be cool with Bermuda joining Canada seeing it also is overwhelmingly black?
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  #70  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 6:37 AM
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Originally Posted by CivicBlues View Post
Everyone seems to be thinking that T&C is full of destitute subsistence farmers or service workers, when in fact it's GDP per Capita (PPP) puts it firmly between Poland and Portugal.

Gee, I wonder what could have caused that dissonance?
Agreed, and those same posters will claim they are not racist when we all know they would not say the same thing about Poles, Portuguese or Greeks.
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  #71  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Agreed, and those same posters will claim they are not racist when we all know they would not say the same thing about Poles, Portuguese or Greeks.
You know who the biggest and most open racists are? People who claim to be the most against racism. They see racism everywhere and espouse racist views against the people they believe are oppressing everybody else.

I don't see any reason to admit the TandC islands because it makes no economic (never mind geographic) sense. We'd be automatically forced to invest a hell of a lot of cash into an impoverished area with very little chance of economic return. I don't care if everybody in the T and C islands somehow manages to immigrate to Canada and works in Canadian industry but there's no common sense argument in favor of taking on a feel-good project that, in this particular case, it is.

There's no logical argument in favor of annexing the T and C islands. It would be nothing other than an ego project.
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  #72  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 2:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Agreed, and those same posters will claim they are not racist when we all know they would not say the same thing about Poles, Portuguese or Greeks.
Do we have any evidence of this? (It's not Canada I know but there was a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment in the UK directed at Poles and this fuelled at least part of the Brexit vote. Even though Poles are white Europeans like most Brits are.)
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  #73  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 2:46 PM
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Since one of the principle fears of annexing the Turks & Caicos seems to be a wave of refugees emanating from Haiti (not surprising since Haiti is only about 100 km away), I'm directing this question to Acajack.

Haitians are francophones and presumably would settle overwhelmingly in greater Montreal. How would Montrealais feel about this??
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  #74  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 3:13 PM
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"Quality" individual Haitians would certainly all be welcome, but masses of destitute uneducated ones all arriving at the same time, we're going to frown at the fact it'll be somewhat taxing our welfare state (just a question of proportions), as we kinda did when they did enter in significant numbers through Canada's very poorly protected land border a while ago.

I'm pretty sure this general answer is somewhat universal - everyone likes quality immigrants, everyone's not that much of a fan of immigrants that are a huge net drain.

If you asked, say, Poles, if they'd like to welcome a handful of educated, rich, already-fluent-in-Polish immigrants, the answer's likely "yes", if you asked them if they wanted to welcome enormous volumes of penniless migrants with zero education and then be on the hook financially for everything involving them from that point on, the answer's likely "no".
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  #75  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 3:36 PM
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I would add that while there is obviously some racism against Haitians in Montreal and Quebec, in general they are well-liked both individually and collectively.

They're considered among the top immigrant groups I would say in terms of their ability and eagerness to fit in and adapt.

You can't underestimate the importance to Québécois of people making an effort to "fit in".

That trumps skin colour here almost every single time.

Another thing I'd add is that there was a backlash of sorts in the past year or two related to the flow of people arriving at the U.S. border. This was more related to the fact that they were perceived as cheating the system, as opposed to their origins. People were also pissed that JT broadcasted a "our borders are open, come on down!"-style message and then left the province of Quebec and the city of Montreal with most of the bill. They could have been some other origin and people would probably have bitched about all of this just as much.
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  #76  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 4:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I would add that while there is obviously some racism against Haitians in Montreal and Quebec, in general they are well-liked both individually and collectively.

They're considered among the top immigrant groups I would say in terms of their ability and eagerness to fit in and adapt.

You can't underestimate the importance to Québécois of people making an effort to "fit in".

That trumps skin colour here almost every single time.
In fact, the Haïtian community in Québec is one of the most celebrated and associated to Québec's mainstream culture, in all areas of society, from litterature to beaux-arts, from TV and cinema to politics, economy and superior education : Dany Laferrière, Stanley Péan, Mélanie Renaud, Didier Lucien, Herbie Moreau, Marie-Josée Lord, Georges Laraque, Bruny Surin, Régine Chassagne, Léonel Jules, Vivian Barbot, Emmanuel Dubourg, Georges et Dominique Anglade... The list could go on and on.
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  #77  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 4:14 PM
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You know who the biggest and most open racists are? People who claim to be the most against racism. They see racism everywhere and espouse racist views against the people they believe are oppressing everybody else.

I don't see any reason to admit the TandC isplands because it makes no economic (never mind geographic) sense. We'd be automatically forced to invest a hell of a lot of cash into an impoverished area with very little chance of economic return. I don't care if everybody in the T and C islands somehow manages to immigrate to Canada and works in Canadian industry but there's no common sense argument in favor of taking on a feel-good project that, in this particular case, it is.

There's no logical argument in favor of annexing the T and C islands. It would be nothing other than an ego project.
Turks and Caicos has a GDP per Capita of over $30,000 (ppp) and an HDI over 0.950 and is comparable to countries like Greece, Portugal and Poland. But in this thread a bunch of people keep calling it an improvish place and some a musing about replacing the population with Chinese to make it more productive,TandC is more developed than China by the way.

They would not be talking about Eastern European countries, who are much poorer that TandC, in this way is where there racism is showing.

Last edited by Nite; Feb 5, 2019 at 5:18 PM.
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  #78  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 4:18 PM
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Turks and Caicos has a GDP per Capita of over 30,000 and an HDI over 0.950 and is comparable to countries like Greece, Portugal and Poland. But in this thread a bunch of people keep calling it an improvish place and some a musing about replacing the population with Chinese to make it more productive,TandC is more developed than China by the way.
.
I think the musing about replacing the population with Chinese people was... a joke.
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  #79  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 4:24 PM
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They would not be talking about Eastern European countries, who are much poorer that TandC, in this way is where there racism is showing.
I am pretty sure most people had or have no idea about the Turks and Caicos' demographics. Though yes many will probably assume the residents are mostly black, though if you asked Canadians randomly you'd probably get guesses that are all over the map.
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  #80  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 4:31 PM
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In fact, the Haïtian community in Québec is one of the most celebrated and associated to Québec's mainstream culture, in all areas of society, from litterature to beaux-arts, from TV and cinema to politics, economy and superior education : Dany Laferrière, Stanley Péan, Mélanie Renaud, Didier Lucien, Herbie Moreau, Marie-Josée Lord, Georges Laraque, Bruny Surin, Régine Chassagne, Léonel Jules, Vivian Barbot, Emmanuel Dubourg, Georges et Dominique Anglade... The list could go on and on.
A number of Canadian (not just Quebec) "firsts" were achieved by members of this community:

- first black mayor of a municipality in Canada
- first black (permanent, not interim) leader of a federal political party
- first black Governor General of Canada
- first Canadian to be admitted to the Académie Française
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