Differences between SW Ontario vs Eastern Ontario

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In spite of the name, I suspect that riding has a majority or at least a plurality of Mennonnites... right?

Yeah, it's the Mennonite region of southern Manitoba.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's interesting. Union members in Eastern Ontario tend to be "soft" members of the labour movement, almost by accident as opposed to conviction. Think of public sector unions for example. Not much militancy or even mobilization around social issues there among the rank and file.

There is "sympathy" for sure but it rarely translates into concrete action.

I was thinking more blue collar industrial unionism, historically stronger in SW Ontario.

[Docere]

Catholicism in SW Ontario is also more "immigrant" than Eastern Ontario. Most Eastern Ontario Catholics are of Irish or French origin with multigenerational roots, while SW Ontario has more of a 20th century immigrant component.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

Catholicism in SW Ontario is also more "immigrant" than Eastern Ontario. Most Eastern Ontario Catholics are of Irish or French origin with multigenerational roots, while SW Ontario has more of a 20th century immigrant component.

So, did the SW Ontario Protestants view SW Ontario Catholics back in the day the same way many American Protestants viewed Catholics back in the day -- as relative newcomers (eg. the way Irish or Italian Catholics were seen as foreign stateside), compared to the "old stock" Protestants who saw themselves as having a sense of belonging there.

Or did the presence of a long-standing Catholic community as old or older in most parts of Ontario (such as the French in SW Ontario) to begin with dampen the association of Catholicism even in Protestant-dominated areas with "foreign-ness"?

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

So, did the SW Ontario Protestants view SW Ontario Catholics back in the day the same way many American Protestants viewed Catholics back in the day -- as relative newcomers (eg. the way Irish or Italian Catholics were seen as foreign stateside), compared to the "old stock" Protestants who saw themselves as having a sense of belonging there.

I don't know if they made a distinction between "old stock real Canadians" and "immigrants" since most SW Ontarians in the 19th century were immigrants (or their children) themselves! However the Clear Grits, the main political movement in the region - a mixture of British reform Liberalism and American populism - were known to be very anti-Catholic.

[Docere]

Here's the Catholic population in five Ontario cities in 1871. In Ottawa they were a mix of French and Irish, in the rest they were nearly all Irish Catholic.

Catholic population, 1871:

Ottawa 12,735 59.1%
Kingston 3,986 32.1%
Toronto 11,881 21.2%
Hamilton 5,659 21.2%
London 2,700 17.1%

[Docere]

It's interesting how Irish Kingston was. People associate it more with Loyalists and Scots (due to Sir John A. and Queen's University).

[Docere]

It's hard to believe that SW Ontario was the main base of the provincial Liberals until the 1970s.

[HillStreetBlues]

Originally Posted by Docere

I don't know if they made a distinction between "old stock real Canadians" and "immigrants" since most SW Ontarians in the 19th century were immigrants (or their children) themselves! However the Clear Grits, the main political movement in the region - a mixture of British reform Liberalism and American populism - were known to be very anti-Catholic.

My sense is that, particularly in London, there was significant anti-Catholic/anti-newcomer sentiment until very late. Your point about the Clear Grits is apt.

My dad (a Catholic from Central Europe) settled in Woodstock in the late '60s, but left soon after to attend university in London and Hamilton. I wound up growing up in London, and he would occasionally comment that the Anglos were still "tight-knit" in some circles even at that time. Hamilton had and still has more Catholics (many Italians, like Windsor), and there was a sense that they were much more fully-integrated in civic life than, say, Pols in London. It didn't help that the "ethnics" (non-Anglos) settled disproportionately in East London.

Re: the provincial Liberals in SWO. Of course the man who broke the 42-year Tory dynasty (David Peterson), represented a London riding, though he was originally a Torontonian. Nixon was from Brant.

Wynne was probably the first Liberal leader who represented a Toronto-area riding in more than half a century, McGuinty being from Ottawa.

[TownGuy]

Interesting thread here that I've missed.

Cobourg and Northumberland County are definitely in a no man's land of sorts. We get lumped with Central Ontario, Eastern Ontario and the GGH simultaneously. I don't even know what to consider us. It was mentioned how Cobourg has 'K' postal code which signifies Eastern Ontario, but Port Hope 5 minutes away an 'L' which is more GTA based. Our area code is 905 which everyone associates with GTA suburbs. A local radio station advertises themselves as 'Central Ontario's classic rock', and then you'll hear a commercial from our local MPP talking about the 'Eastern Ontario' development fund.

In terms of draw the GTA wins, most people commute west towards Oshawa/Durham but a few do travel east towards Belleville/Quinte or north towards Peterborough. I'm not sure the exact statistics but that's how it feels anyways. I personally feel more of a connection towards the GTA and to a lesser extent Peterborough. Things feel different as you get towards the Trenton, Belleville area, heck even Colborne and Brighton feel different and trend towards the east. I have a couple co-workers from Belleville and they'll talk of shopping in Kingston, going to a Sens game in Ottawa or whatever whereas the people in Cobourg talk about heading to Oshawa or Toronto to do whatever.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

Interesting thread here that I've missed.

Cobourg and Northumberland County are definitely in a no man's land of sorts. We get lumped with Central Ontario, Eastern Ontario and the GGH simultaneously. I don't even know what to consider us. It was mentioned how Cobourg has 'K' postal code which signifies Eastern Ontario, but Port Hope 5 minutes away an 'L' which is more GTA based. Our area code is 905 which everyone associates with GTA suburbs. A local radio station advertises themselves as 'Central Ontario's classic rock', and then you'll hear a commercial from our local MPP talking about the 'Eastern Ontario' development fund.

In terms of draw the GTA wins, most people commute west towards Oshawa/Durham but a few do travel east towards Belleville/Quinte or north towards Peterborough. I'm not sure the exact statistics but that's how it feels anyways. I personally feel more of a connection towards the GTA and to a lesser extent Peterborough. Things feel different as you get towards the Trenton, Belleville area, heck even Colborne and Brighton feel different and trend towards the east. I have a couple co-workers from Belleville and they'll talk of shopping in Kingston, going to a Sens game in Ottawa or whatever whereas the people in Cobourg talk about heading to Oshawa or Toronto to do whatever.

You guys are like North Bay - the gateway to the North.

[Docere]

The shifting definition of Central Ontario for many from "between east and west" (including the GTA/Hamilton/Niagara) to cottage country leaves Northumberland hard to place as well.

[manny_santos]

I think of Eastern Ontario as starting around Brighton. If I'm driving east on the 401 and I hit the OnRoute between Brighton and Trenton, I consider myself to have entered Eastern Ontario.

To this day there is still a sign on old Highway 2 in Deseronto, east of Belleville, that proclaims you're entering the "Eastern Ontario Travel Area" eastbound, and the "Central Ontario Travel Area" westbound. That definition appears to lump Hastings County in with Central Ontario, with Lennox & Addington being in Eastern Ontario. Despite that I've never thought of Belleville as being in Central Ontario.

[Docere]

Looking at the PC leadership results, there was a bit of an Eastern/SW Ontario difference.

Eastern Ontario was worse overall because it's less "rust belty" and Ottawa isn't exactly fertile ground for Ford-style populism. However Ford did very well in Renfrew which has more of a "populist" bent.

Within SW Ontario, there was a notable difference between the "rust belty" "south" and the less industrialized "north."

Tanya Granic Allen's best ridings were in the SW.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

My sense is that, particularly in London, there was significant anti-Catholic/anti-newcomer sentiment until very late. Your point about the Clear Grits is apt.

My dad (a Catholic from Central Europe) settled in Woodstock in the late '60s, but left soon after to attend university in London and Hamilton. I wound up growing up in London, and he would occasionally comment that the Anglos were still "tight-knit" in some circles even at that time. Hamilton had and still has more Catholics (many Italians, like Windsor), and there was a sense that they were much more fully-integrated in civic life than, say, Pols in London. It didn't help that the "ethnics" (non-Anglos) settled disproportionately in East London.

Re: the provincial Liberals in SWO. Of course the man who broke the 42-year Tory dynasty (David Peterson), represented a London riding, though he was originally a Torontonian. Nixon was from Brant.

Wynne was probably the first Liberal leader who represented a Toronto-area riding in more than half a century, McGuinty being from Ottawa.

IIRC, Wynne is actually the only Torontonian ever to be a Liberal Premier. Historically very few Ontario premiers are from Toronto actually.. I believe only two or three total before Wynne.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

IIRC, Wynne is actually the only Torontonian ever to be a Liberal Premier. Historically very few Ontario premiers are from Toronto actually.. I believe only two or three total before Wynne.

Bob Rae of course. Also the anglo-chauvinist George Drew in the 1940s.

[1overcosc]

Wynne: Toronto
McGuinty: Ottawa
Eves: Orangeville
Harris: North Bay
Rae: Toronto
Peterson: London
Miller: Muskoka
Davis: Brampton (at a time before Brampton was integrated into Toronto metro like it is now)
Robarts: London
Frost: Lindsay
Kennedy: Streetsville (nowadays a neighbourhood of Mississauga but in his time a rural village)
Drew: Toronto
Nixon: St. George (near Brantford)
Conant: Oshawa (before the GTA was a thing)
Hepburn: St. Thomas (near London)
Henry: Toronto
Ferguson: Kemptville (near Ottawa)
Drury: rural area near Barrie
Hearst: Sault Ste Marie
Whitney: Williamsburg (near Cornwall)
Ross: rural area near London
Hardy: Toronto
Mowat: Kingston
Blake: Owen Sound
MacDonald: Cornwall

So of 25 Premiers only five from Toronto.. Only 2 of them post 1950.

McGuinty was the only one from Ottawa.

Relative to population the London area is probably the biggest source of Premiers.

[1overcosc]

Another fascination: of 25 Premiers, 24 were born in Ontario. Robarts was born in Alberta. None were foreign born.

[Docere]

The big question of course is whether Ernie Eves and Frank Miller count as Northerners.

[Docere]

One political difference within Eastern Ontario (minus the Capital Region) is the more moderate Quinte/Kingston region (with Kingston being more liberal) vs. the more conservative area east of there.