The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[JHikka]

Was just down in market square and came across the PlanSJ hearing/event. Picked up an information pamphlet and, upon seeing the Citizen Advisory Board and those on it, promptly left.

Some things never change.

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

Was just down in market square and came across the PlanSJ hearing/event. Picked up an information pamphlet and, upon seeing the Citizen Advisory Board and those on it, promptly left.

Some things never change.

Greg, care to elaborate for those of us not so familiar with local politics?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

Greg, care to elaborate for those of us not so familiar with local politics?

Well, I just see this as a sort of "We screwed up with Peel, so let's get the people more involved!" by way of creating a group of citizens (Upstanding or not), couple them with two current city Councillors, and see what happens when they're put into place.

The pamphlet states that they won't come to a full municipal plan until 2011, so until then i'm not holding my breath.

[PersonPlaceorThing]

There were some cool displays and data collection tools. I liked the "put a dot on the map" thing. Also the "what can Saint John do that your favourite city does" question was a good way of thinking about the municipal plan.

The survey they had was a little odd though. I have trouble answering open ended questions.

[kwajo]

I had my stakeholder meeting with Urban Designs (the plan consultants) this morning and I'm very optimistic about the new municipal plan itself, it's the city management's adoption of its principles that I'd be more worried about.

[JRocca]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

Was just down in market square and came across the PlanSJ hearing/event. Picked up an information pamphlet and, upon seeing the Citizen Advisory Board and those on it, promptly left.

Some things never change.

The fundamental flaw is that we are putting the cart before the horse.
A municipal plan is one of the tools a City has to implement its Citizens' long term vision of the community.
Because there is not a shared vision of what Saint John should be, the Plan can only help make the development process more efficient rather than advance community goals relating to quality of life and economic development.
Unfortunately, Citizens have been led to expect that up dating the Plan will be an panacia for whatever ails us,or a great tool to effectively grow the tax base, attract industry,compete with the Valley for residential development,etc.
Nothing could be further from the truth.The new plan will make the process more efficient and will reduce conflict between developers and citizens in some areas but it will not mee the other expectations.
The new plan will tell me as a developer where I must build a project [ without applying for a change] but it does not ENCOURAGE me to build it there or even in the City!!!
Let me give you an example.
We do not have regional planning nor a consensus between the City and the the communities in the Valley and Westfield/Grand Bay as to what each community should focus on from a development point of view to ensure that 1+1=3.
So, if we proposed a business park development, we would be welcomed to build it in any of the five communities.So, is up dating the plan going to give City Staff an edge in convincing me to lovcate it in S.J.?
Is telling me in the new Plan that S.J. wants to see business parks locate in Millidgeville,for example,relevant to my decision making process or helpful to City officials in attracting us to S.J. if we conclude that the Valley is the best location for a business park? Or,is streamlining the approval process in S.J. going to help City officials make the business case to us that we should locate in S.J. rather than the Valley?
In our business,it's always about "location,location,location". An expensive location in a community that is extremely difficult to deal with is far more attractive than FREE land in a SECONDARY location in a community without ANY planning restrictions
Now look at a different scenario.
Assume that all the communities agreed that business parks should only be developed in S.J. and the new Plan said they should be in Millidgeville. In this scenario, we would build it in Millidgeville because the REGIONAL POLICY DECISION effectively made Millidgeville the #1 location for a business park.
So, when the Plan reflects a good policy decision rather than desires expressed in a vacuum,the Plan can make development both efficient and effective.

[dhottawa729]

Originally Posted by PersonPlaceorThing

The problem with pedways is that they allow people to bypass everything not in the pedway.

I'm guilty of walking in the pedway ignoring King Street the whole time.

With Brunswick Square holding so many people, it's sad to see how challenged the rest of King St. is. I think it is in partially because no one has to walk up and down King, when one can take the pedway from the market to market square and never have to leave the indoors.

The biggest problem with the pedway system is that, although they are convenient, it makes the streets look dead. If there were no pedways, I think the uptown would look much more bustling with activity. I say don't build any more!

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by dhottawa729

The biggest problem with the pedway system is that, although they are convenient, it makes the streets look dead. If there were no pedways, I think the uptown would look much more bustling with activity. I say don't build any more!

Having stores open after 5 might be a good idea, too.

[PersonPlaceorThing]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

Having stores open after 5 might be a good idea, too.

That's one of my beefs with the City Market. While most stalls are open until '6pm' most area tearing down by 5:30. If I leave work a little after five I should be able to walk to the market and shop. Also, if just one night a week they stayed open later (say until 7) I would be far more likely to spend my food dollars there.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by PersonPlaceorThing

That's one of my beefs with the City Market. While most stalls are open until '6pm' most area tearing down by 5:30. If I leave work a little after five I should be able to walk to the market and shop. Also, if just one night a week they stayed open later (say until 7) I would be far more likely to spend my food dollars there.

Indeed. I can understand the Market, but Brunswick Square bothers me to no end. I can bus from my house at 5:30 and get uptown at 5:45 and many stores will be closed, and those that aren't are already on their way.

I recall one year I went to watch the Santa Clause parade uptown, and it started at 7. So I went down to the food court of Brunswick Square at around 6 to get some food beforehand, and guess what, everything was closed. With the number of people uptown on that evening, and having all of the stores closed, just boggled my mind.


Also, i've heard Kent's wants to open a new location on the west-side. Apparently they'll be taking the Irving land on the corner of Fairville and Catherwood.

[Joe]

There's not a great enough demand for business to stay open later. More people traffic is needed, which means more people living in the uptown/southend. Hopefully the new condos on Waters street at the coast guard site will act as a catalyst. I believe one of the cities goals was to increase the population livinng in the uptown. More people = more demand = more businesses and services offered.

[PersonPlaceorThing]

Originally Posted by Joe

There's not a great enough demand for business to stay open later. More people traffic is needed, which means more people living in the uptown/southend. Hopefully the new condos on Waters street at the coast guard site will act as a catalyst. I believe one of the cities goals was to increase the population livinng in the uptown. More people = more demand = more businesses and services offered.

I concur that more people are needed for more hours. The problem is that a market vendor could easily convince themselves that they don't have enough demand because people aren't buying stuff between 5:30 and 6:00. However, I'm not buying stuff between these hours if its already put away. Pete's is always busy in the after work hours, but if I want to get meat or fish to go with my veggies, it's pretty awkward.

[Joe]

I agree 5:30 is to early. Alot of people are just getting off work at that time. On another note has anyone heard about an annoucement to be made at Harbour Station today at 3:00?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Joe

I believe one of the cities goals was to increase the population livinng in the uptown. More people = more demand = more businesses and services offered.

What also needs to be noted is that these people need to have money. A new block of people on welfare aren't going to spur retail sales in the Uptown, regardless of how many there are.

[Joe]

I was going to post it that way but didn't want to ruffle any feathers. Population with disposable income may have been a better way to put it.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Joe

I was going to post it that way but didn't want to ruffle any feathers. Population with disposable income may have been a better way to put it.

Either way, you understand the point.

[Joe]

I understand fully.

[JRocca]

Originally Posted by dhottawa729

The biggest problem with the pedway system is that, although they are convenient, it makes the streets look dead. If there were no pedways, I think the uptown would look much more bustling with activity. I say don't build any more!

The conversation about the Pedway assumes that the pedway is in fact drawing traffic that would otherwise use King St.The facts support the opposite conclusion.
If you ask those businesses on King street that were there before and after the pedway system was built, they will tell you that they have more traffic now than before the pedway system was built.
And if you ask tenants in Brunswick Square, tenants in the market etc the same question, you will also find that they get more traffic now.
The pedway system allows those connected to it to attract many people during the winter and rainy days that would otherwise not go to their establishments.
Think how much business bars and restaurants connected to the pedway get when there is an event at Harbourt Station.Now remove the pedway and many of us planning to go to an event at H.S.would be srambling for a parking spot by H.S. and not frequent the uptown facilities before or after the event if the weather isn't great.Instead, we park at Market Square or Brunswick Square and eat, drink and go to the event irrespective of the weather outside.
At the same time, when it's a sunny day or in the summer,most of us are walking outside on King St. You can shoot a cannon down the Pedway system and not hit anybody.
In my opinion, Saint John is one of the few Cities in North America that has got the balance between indoor and outdoor spaces just right.
The challenge Uptown faces is the same challenge most downtown face and you are discussing-how do we make night time in the Uptown as vibrant as it is in the day time.
In my opinion, this requires enough people living Uptown to make it financially attractive for more busineses to be open at night and new businesses to locate Uptown.
At the present time, most businesses have no choice but to target the day time population because there is not enough people living Uptown to support them at night[ other than "destination" businesses such as food and beverage business that draw from the entire region].

[JHikka]

Anyone see the Reader's Choice Awards in the TJ this morning? Haha.

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by Joe

I agree 5:30 is to early. Alot of people are just getting off work at that time. On another note has anyone heard about an annoucement to be made at Harbour Station today at 3:00?

I just saw this in the newspaper this morning. A new HD screen for the center ice scoreclock at Harbour Station. Total cost $1 million split equally between Municipal, Provincial, and Federal governments.

Very cool!