Will the Migration from "Snowbelt" to "Sunbelt" Reverse in the U.S.?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

The first wave of The Great Migration started in the early 1900s (around the time the Automobile was revolutionizing the world and Henry Ford perfected the assembly line).

The Great Migration was a WW2-1980 phenomenon, more or less. Of course there were blacks and Southerners who came in earlier decades, but the numbers were comparatively small.

Detroit proper was 9% black during WW2. Its black population would increase fivefold in the next three decades.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

but all opinions are not equal.

an opinion formed from facts is superior to one formed from "impressions".

on average, boston sees more snowfall than chicago in any given winter.

and no, that's not because boston routinely gets one-time 176" snowfalls one year, and then no snow for 3 years.

that's a ridiculous claim. stop being ridiculous.

The person you are arguing with is a disgruntled former Midwesterner. You and I know the type—he has to trash talk his home region, even it it means taking certain liberties (ie making shit up) to get his point across. Just warning you

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

I guess we're all entitled to our own opinons.

Cities like Boston and NYC are different in that they can go several consecutive winters with long periods of no snow falling / on the ground.

Part of the reason their averages are so high is because they will frequently see a one-hit-and-done 2-3 feet Nor'easter that melts away 2-3 days later.

This is absolute, utter nonsense

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

This is absolute, utter nonsense

It's generally true, though. NYC will get huge storms and then nothing for a year or two. Detroit will get regular snowfall throughout the winter, but few large storms.

[hauntedheadnc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The Great Migration was a WW2-1980 phenomenon, more or less. Of course there were blacks and Southerners who came in earlier decades, but the numbers were comparatively small.

Detroit proper was 9% black during WW2. Its black population would increase fivefold in the next three decades.

You're off by a little... The Great Migration officially began in 1916, when people began moving from the farms to the factories that were churning out things for World War I, and it officially ended in 1970.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

No, you're just completely distorting my point.

The fact is culturally and economically, the Upper Midwest and Great Lakes as a whole was completely irrelevant despite the relatively few people who lived there. The largest cities in that region (besides Chicago) were barely on the map before the Great Migration. It wasn't until jobs in manufacturing were being churned out in droves (the invention of and demand for the Automobile being the main catalyst for this) that the mass migration from the south began and the Midwest really began to grow and develop.

You’re full of it.

Chicago, Milwaukee, Buffalo, Rochester, Cleveland, Detroit were all among the 20 largest cities in the nation by the 1860s. That’s not even including cities of the greater region like St Louis, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Louisville.

And Manufacturing jobs came in great numbers to those cities and others in the greater Midwest and northeast long before the automobile.

You claim that these cities only became populated because of the automobile and confederacy collapse. You’re completely wrong.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I've basically never shoveled in my life (outside of clearing cars and once helping an old lady in high school), and have only lived in the Snowbelt. My parents always had a snow service (it's like $25 a visit, not exactly a bank-breaker), and since college I've been in rentals and condos, none requiring such work.



My parents' snow service does sidewalks, front and side entries. The truck cleans the driveway and a snow blower does the little stuff.

First of all, where did you live? This scenario seem to be an exception to the norm. I lived in both New York and New England where if you did not at least own a shovel...you were cast out from society and ridiculed.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

You're off by a little... The Great Migration officially began in 1916, when people began moving from the farms to the factories that were churning out things for World War I, and it officially ended in 1970.

Detroit gained like 100,000 blacks in the 20th century prior to WW2, and then gained another 650,000 blacks in the next three decades.

To me, that's an enormous difference. It's clear that Detroit's prewar growth had almost nothing to do with black migration, while postwar population trends were almost entirely dependent on black migration.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Crawford

It's generally true, though. NYC will get huge storms and then nothing for a year or two. Detroit will get regular snowfall throughout the winter, but few large storms.

I think it might be more true for New York, but Boston?

And, I’m not aware that New York goes years in a row without any snowfall at all. Is this true? That wasn’t the case the years I lived there.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by JManc

First of all, where did you live? This scenario seem to be an exception to the norm. I lived in both New York and New England where if you did not at least own a shovel...you were cast out from society and ridiculed.

Suburban sprawl outside Detroit. It's an upscale McMansion-y area, and I don't think most neighbors shovel or snowplow (or mow, or do anything outside of weeding and trimming).

But, yeah, in the "real" Michigan, the working class areas, people tend to do their own work, and kinda look down on folks who don't.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by JManc

First of all, where did you live? This scenario seem to be an exception to the norm. I lived in both New York and New England where if you did not at least own a shovel...you were cast out from society and ridiculed.

While I own a shovel, I never use it. I pay for a plow service. As do a lot of people

[skyscraperpage17]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The Great Migration was a WW2-1980 phenomenon, more or less. Of course there were blacks and Southerners who came in earlier decades, but the numbers were comparatively small.

Detroit proper was 9% black during WW2. Its black population would increase fivefold in the next three decades.

Most historians define the Great Migration as the period from the early 1900s to the early 1970s. If it was primarily a WW2 - Phenomenon, they would not.

Also, it wasn't just blacks who migrated northward. In Michigan alone, the white southerner population increased by 150% from 1900 to 1930.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by JManc

Who the hell lives up north and doesn't shovel?.

i lived in downtown chicago highrise condos for roughly a decade and didn't touch a shovel once.

we now live in a condo 3-flat in a city neighborhood. we could hire a snow service to shovel our sidewalks for us (and some small condo buildings actually do that), but i'm a bit too able-bodied and thriftiness-minded to pay someone else to do what i can easily do myself (and i actually kind of enjoy snow shoveling in a weird way, if you can believe it).

so me and my neighbor upstairs made a little deal. because he hates cold weather and shoveling, i told him that i would take care of shoveling the sidewalks all winter if he would take care of all of the yard work in the other 3 seasons (feeding, mowing, raking, etc.). he agreed to it, so i feel like i made out like a bandit!

[Docere]

By 1900, 4 of the 10 largest cities were in the Midwest. Cleveland for example was the 6th largest city in 1900 and was again in 1930.

Detroit was a late bloomer among the Midwestern cities, and moved signficiantly up the ranks (from 13th in 1900 to 4th in 1930).

[JManc]

McMansion-y areas make sense; huge yards, long wind-y driveways. I live in a McMansion-y area and everyone hires lawn services. We always lived in old houses back home...close to the street. Easy to shovel/ snowblow. Mow lawns.

[Docere]

Historians also draw a distinction between the First Great Migration (1916-1930) and Second Great Migration (1940-1970). The first wave was much smaller in numbers and skewed toward fewer destinations.

[Vlajos]

I live in the City and we pay for lawn care. I hate cutting grass and caring for the flower beds and shrubs. I do shovel though, because I enjoy it. I have no driveway which obviously helps. 2 car garage off an alley. I could pay someone to do it if I didn't want to though. Plenty of neighborhood kids who will do it for cheap, let alone professional service people.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by Docere

By 1900, 4 of the 10 largest cities were in the Midwest. Cleveland for example was the 6th largest city in 1900 and was again in 1930.

Detroit was a late bloomer among the Midwestern cities, and moved signficiantly up the ranks (from 13th in 1900 to 4th in 1930).

So, no black migration. How many southern cities were top 10?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

How many southern cities were top 10?

in 1900? only one. baltimore.

and that's hardly "southern" south (ie. maryland never joined the confederacy). it's really mid-atlantic.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

in 1900? only one. baltimore.

and that's hardly "southern" south (ie. maryland never joined the confederacy). it's really mid-atlantic.

Yeah, that's what I figured. Thanks.