DENVER | Transportation Thread

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

That sounds like quite the soon-to-be-congested sprawl engine.

All assuming that the ongoing litigation doesn't stop that project.

In this case, not really, most of that area that the loop road will be cutting through the Gila River Indian Res., and the city is already sprawled up to the edge of the reservation. The rest of that quadrant is mountain parks which can't be developed on.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Who knows the reliability, cost of maintenance and parts for these new-fangled Urbos trains?

CAF, the company that builds the Urbos, is bad at delivering trains on time, but they're good once you get them.

But long trains aren't unique to CAF/Urbos. They're basically the industry standard everywhere outside the US. Ride the subway in London, Tokyo, or Rio, or ride the streetcars in Budapest, Toronto, or Melbourne, and the newer cars are all open-gangway like that. Basically, it adds 10% capacity and dramatically improves circulation inside the railcar. Riders can move to the front or back to get the most ideal or least crowded spot.

But in the US, nobody has them yet. The Purple Line and the Honolulu metro (under construction now) will be the first.


Open gangway London subway train. Photo by TTP.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

is the $5.6 billion figure in present dollars, or are they just multiplying out the availability payment times the number of years?

I would guess the latter too, but off the top of my head I don't know for sure.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

In this case, not really, most of that area that the loop road will be cutting through the Gila River Indian Res., and the city is already sprawled up to the edge of the reservation. The rest of that quadrant is mountain parks which can't be developed on.

Wow, you're more familiar than I am; never been in that part of town.

Yes, it's intended to be a reliever for I-10 traffic which like I-25 is still jammed at rush hour despite its 10 lanes. The by-pass will carry (truck) traffic to the fast-growing SE part of the metro area which is a hub for tech, especially the semiconductor and electronics industry.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

CAF, the company that builds the Urbos, is bad at delivering trains on time, but they're good once you get them.

But long trains aren't unique to CAF/Urbos. They're basically the industry standard everywhere outside the US. Ride the subway in London, Tokyo, or Rio, or ride the streetcars in Budapest, Toronto, or Melbourne, and the newer cars are all open-gangway like that. Basically, it adds 10% capacity and dramatically improves circulation inside the railcar. Riders can move to the front or back to get the most ideal or least crowded spot.

But in the US, nobody has them yet. The Purple Line and the Honolulu metro (under construction now) will be the first.

[snip]
Open gangway London subway train. Photo by TTP.

I noted that the Honolulu trains are being built by Hitachi. Would either of these new models be able to run on RTD's existing tracks? Although who knows what might be available in 30 years.

And From Yonah Freemark's TransportPolitic my sharp eye picked up on this:

But the Second Avenue Subway project has its issues—notably the fact that at $4.5 billion, it’s outrageously expensive given its 1.7-mile length.

Obviously it's going to take time, increased density and new habits for Denver metro residents but I still have confidence that in time. even with light rail along freight lines and highways that Denver will get there from here.

EDIT: Oh thx. I often think of that but not this time.

[Cirrus]

There are definitely open gangway trains that can run on Denver's tracks. RTD could opt to buy them on any future railcar purchase.

And I'm not sure what the 2nd Avenue subway has to do with this discussion, but I'll make three points about it:

• Yes, it is more expensive than it should be.
• Even at only 1.7 miles long, its expected to carry 200,000 riders per day. IIRC that's approximately equal to the entire FasTracks system, and $4.5 billion is about the same as the FasTracks system cost. So don't scoff too much.
• The Lexington Avenue subway line, which the 2nd Avenue subway parallels and relieves, carries 1.3 million passengers per day. On its own. That one line of the New York subway carries more people than any other US rail system. It's an absolute monster of a transit corridor and is completely off the charts compared to any non-New York city in the US. It's really really a different scale than anything else in the country. Of course anything you do there is expensive.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

But in the US, nobody has them yet. The Purple Line and the Honolulu metro (under construction now) will be the first.

TexRail in fort Worth will be using a 4 car Stadler Flirt3 railcars with DMU module. They have open vestibules. They are planned to be placed in service by late 2018.
Stadler Rail news release
http://www.stadlerrail.com/en/news/2...contract-in-t/

Interior photo of open vestibule
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...albahn_S6).jpg

But because of the DMU power module in the middle of the train, there will be closed vestibules between the second and third cars to the power module. There will be open vestibules between the first and second car, and between the third and fourth cars.

Honolulu light metro start up planned for 2017. D.C. Purple line start up planned for 2021.

Whether any of these trains start up as planned is a wait and see scenario.
But these trains are different types, Honolulu is a light autonomous metro, D.C. is a light rail requiring an operator, and TexRail is commuter rail requiring an engineer.

[Cirrus]

Interesting. I didn't know that about the Texas one. Great looking trains. Thanks.

Also, it's nice to see more cities following Denver's lead and building DMU/EMU rather than light rail for corridors like that. Looks like TEXrail is planning on trains every 30 minutes. LRT would be overkill. DART really ought to have been DMU for the headways and station spacing they have.

[TakeFive]

"RTC board adopts major transportation investment plan"
April 14, 2016 By J.D. Morris

Light rail from the airport to the Strip and downtown could cost from $2.1 billion to $12.5 billion.

At least they've got a good feel for the cost.

Image courtesy Regional Transportation Commission via LV Sun

Recently a delegation from Las Vegas spent time in Denver getting to know Fastracks. In recent months there has been a series of articles run about transit and Denver has been featured a number of times.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

"RTC board adopts major transportation investment plan"
April 14, 2016 By J.D. Morris

At least they've got a good feel for the cost.

Image courtesy Regional Transportation Commission via LV Sun

Recently a delegation from Las Vegas spent time in Denver getting to know Fastracks. In recent months there has been a series of articles run about transit and Denver has been featured a number of times.

Hah, if RTD just would have given that price range for the cost of FasTracks then there never would have been any cost overrun issues....

[TakeFive]

Thanks to News of the South

"RTD's ride into the future: 2016 is a big year for Denver transit"
Apr 18, 2016 by Cathy Proctor - Denver Business Journal

Game changing.

That’s the word repeated most often when community and business leaders discuss the massive expansion of rail and bus lines that the Regional Transportation District is rolling out in 2016, all part of the decade-long FasTracks construction project.

While mostly a feel-good overview/review, still it's an excellent, fun read.

bunt and I will get back to this:

“This is going to be a huge, huge year for Denver — FasTracks is a region-shaping initiative,” Cook said.

New development is expected to cluster around the train stations for decades to come, meaning more people will live closer to transit and will use it to get to and from work, or entertainment or recreation options. That means fewer cars traveling on the city’s roads and highways, DRCOG’s Cook said.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

And I'm not sure what the 2nd Avenue subway has to do with this discussion, but I'll make three points about it:

• Yes, it is more expensive than it should be.
• Even at only 1.7 miles long, its expected to carry 200,000 riders per day. IIRC that's approximately equal to the entire FasTracks system, and $4.5 billion is about the same as the FasTracks system cost. So don't scoff too much.
• The Lexington Avenue subway line, which the 2nd Avenue subway parallels and relieves, carries 1.3 million passengers per day. On its own. That one line of the New York subway carries more people than any other US rail system. It's an absolute monster of a transit corridor and is completely off the charts compared to any non-New York city in the US. It's really really a different scale than anything else in the country. Of course anything you do there is expensive.

I rely on you to readily make a good case by providing good data and context.

Srsly, I can't relate to NE-tern cities. My whole context for reference is west of the Mississippi, mostly Iowa, Minnesota, Colorado and Arizona. So I count on you to learn me. There's an ole saying that goes "You can take the Boy out of the Country, but you can't take the Country out of the Boy." At least partly I'm still a Country Boy. But I do enjoy bridging the different worlds and when I dive into transit of course I stop by your blog.

“You can't stop the future
You can't rewind the past
The only way to learn the secret
...is to press play.”

Thanks to Jay Asher, Thirteen Reasons Why

[lumos]

Denver is one of the world's most competent airports with multiple runways, Cat IIIc (full auto land) procedures on 34R and 34L with a 16000ft landing distance on 34R. They have a tremendous ability to deice and keep the runways and taxiways clear. So why did United decide early last Friday to cancel all its flights for Saturday? As it turned out the snow was dispatched easily by the crews at DIA and other airlines were banging them in on schedule (take a bow South West). I just was left feeling that United calculate that they do not have to pay compensation for weather cancellations, most people will reschedule on the same airline so they maintain revenue and they avoid the chance of having to divert away from their home base and then deal with the consequences.

What seems to have changed is the threshold of diversion risk, but this was a slow moving weather system yet they cancelled their really short sectors equally such as Phoenix. So DIA was very quiet on Saturday, planes landing without drama and no diversions but many inconvenienced PAX.

[EngiNerd]

Anyone seen these ads this week on the side of the light rail? Found it kind of hilarious.


https://twitter.com/KOANewsRadio

[RyanD]

Another wonderful article by our one and only David Sachs! /s

We have something amazing coming and what does he do?

Read it and try to not have a stroke:

http://denver.streetsblog.org/2016/0...ia/#more-10771

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Another wonderful article by our one and only David Sachs! /s

We have something amazing coming and what does he do?

Read it and try to not have a stroke:

http://denver.streetsblog.org/2016/0...ia/#more-10771

Do you guys ever think to ask him not to link to your articles? It's like the National Review being affiliated with Stormfront.

Not that Sach's is a white supremacist- though he is a cycling supremacist and all-around asshat.

[Cirrus]

It's not that he's exactly wrong with that article; it's just that shitting all over a great new thing in the middle of opening ceremonies because you'd like there to be more of it is bad form. Extremely bad form.

Publish the same article in 2 months. This week, shut your trap and let people have their fun.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by lumos

Denver is one of the world's most competent airports with multiple runways, Cat IIIc (full auto land) procedures on 34R and 34L with a 16000ft landing distance on 34R. They have a tremendous ability to deice and keep the runways and taxiways clear. So why did United decide early last Friday to cancel all its flights for Saturday? As it turned out the snow was dispatched easily by the crews at DIA and other airlines were banging them in on schedule (take a bow South West). I just was left feeling that United calculate that they do not have to pay compensation for weather cancellations, most people will reschedule on the same airline so they maintain revenue and they avoid the chance of having to divert away from their home base and then deal with the consequences.

What seems to have changed is the threshold of diversion risk, but this was a slow moving weather system yet they cancelled their really short sectors equally such as Phoenix. So DIA was very quiet on Saturday, planes landing without drama and no diversions but many inconvenienced PAX.

United Airlines Tumbles After Disappointing Revenue Forecast
April 21, 2016 by Michael Sasso - Bloomberg

United Continental Holdings Inc. fell the most in almost eight months after the airline said a crucial measure of revenue would continue to weaken in the second quarter.

United who was first to execute a merger in 2010 seemed to benefit from being a first mover in airline consolidation. They also benefitted earlier in the 2010's from strong foreign travel and a weak dollar. But with the dollar now much higher they're suffering a reversal of fortune from exchange rates and less foreign travel.

They recently struck a deal with a couple of unhappy larger investors giving them two board seats to prevent a proxy battle. Three current board members will retire. They seem to have lost their competitive edge.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Do you guys ever think to ask him not to link to your articles? It's like the National Review being affiliated with Stormfront.

Not that Sach's is a white supremacist- though he is a cycling supremacist and all-around asshat.

First I can recall a reference to Stormfront since most people have no clue who they are.

Originally Posted by Cirrus

It's not that he's exactly wrong with that article; it's just that shitting all over a great new thing in the middle of opening ceremonies because you'd like there to be more of it is bad form. Extremely bad form.

Publish the same article in 2 months. This week, shut your trap and let people have their fun.

Makes sense to me.

C'mon people RTD FasTracks from the beginning, its design and DNA is not your by-the-book system for “true transit cities.” Cirrus would argue and I'd agree that FasTracks is not an urbanist dream. In Sachs' criticism including Central Park Station he could have at least noted that Forest Park is still working on their proposed Master Plan for development near the station. But who knew he was also anti-parks.

There's a specific reason why I included this quote from the DBJ in my above comment:

“This is going to be a huge, huge year for Denver — FasTracks is a region-shaping initiative,” Cook said.

New development is expected to cluster around the train stations for decades to come, meaning more people will live closer to transit and will use it to get to and from work, or entertainment or recreation options. That means fewer cars traveling on the city’s roads and highways, DRCOG’s Cook said.

Sure it's a bit of happy talk but it goes directly to the DNA of FasTracks being for a future vision and NOT today's ideal system. It will take three decades to have a good sense for how wise or unwise their plan was. So for now RTD can look forward to much criticism from both the right and the left. /sigh

In 2008/9, people, investors were wondering how long it would take Union Station Neighborhood to develop out - 20-30 years? Things can and do change. At least with DUS the adage of "Build it and they will come" has proven true in spades.

[TakeFive]

Chances are the Gentleman knows of what he speaks.

"New train to DIA, Denver rail expansion are turning heads among global investors"
Apr 21, 2016 by Cathy Proctor - Denver Business Journal

Denver's profile among international real estate investors has risen significantly in the six years that RTD and Denver Transit Partners have been expanding Denver's rail network — including the rail line to Denver International Airport opening Friday.

It's the symbolicallyism

“It’s symbolically the most visible and most symbolically important line because it connects downtown Denver to every place in the world that Denver International Airport connects to,” said Mark Falcone, CEO of Continuum Partners LLC, a real estate development company.

So Mark, how much of a difference is FasTracks making?

Real estate investors around the world have taken notice of Denver's growing transit network, Falcone said.

“In real estate, we talk to people investing capital all over the world and it’s amazing how high Denver’s profile has become over the last five years. People look at the Denver region and see a lot of long-term growth and prosperity,” he said.

And Mark what do you think of Denver Union Station and the developing neighborhood?

Today, “we’re extremely proud of what it is and what we were able to do,” Falcone said of the project. “I walk through it back and forth to work every day and it’s amazing, the shift that it’s created in our neighborhood.”

Thank you Mr. Falcone. You da man.