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  #821  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 6:10 AM
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I think I speak for the majority of Haligonians when I say I would much prefer an NHL franchise, obviously thats a few decades off so for now we'll settle for the CFL.
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  #822  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Long term, the success of any CFL franchise rests on cultivating a solid 20,000+ solid die hard fans that will stick to their team through thick and thin and -15C blizzards. Everything above 20,000 is gravy.
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How many die hards do you think there are in Halifax? In Nova Scotia? In the Maritimes?
These two comments are by isaidso, posted in the Halifax Stadium thread. I decided to respond to them here because I thought this was the more appropriate venue and I didn't want to hijeck the Halifax thread any more than it already was.

I lived in Halifax for nearly a decade and Halifax is a football town but the only time I ever saw the passion for football displayed by the town was during the regular Atlantic (Uteck) Bowls. The rest of the time, it wasn't nearly so evident.

I've now lived in Moncton for more than 20 years and I would have to say that the raw passion for the game is more present here than in Halifax. High school football is big here. Regular games routinely get about 1,500 people out. The provincial championship game (that my son's team won) had 4,500 in attendance and was standing room only at Rocky Stone Field. Moncton Minor Football has about 2,000 participants and all six city high schools have varsity teams.

Unfortunately, Mount Allison University football is not so well supported, rarely getting more than 2,000 people to come out to watch. This could be because:
1- the university is 30 minutes away.
2- the team has only had one winning season in the last decade and didn't win a game this year.
3- Mt A does not have a proper stadium.

Just how many diehard fans are there in Moncton? That's somewhat hard to say but it would be valid I think to state that probably 2/3rds of the 20,000 plus people that attended the two Touchdown Atlantic games were from the local area.

Given this, there are probably at least 15,000 locals willing to attend professional football games. That figure could grow given fan loyalty to a home team, rather than carpetbagging teams coming in for a one-off game.

But would these people actually buy seasons tickets? Would out of towners buy seasons tickets to a Moncton based team?

The beauty of football over hockey is that there is less of a time commitment necessary to be an ardent team supporter. There are 41 home games per year for an NHL team. There are only 9 home games per year in the CFL. The stadium only needs to be filled every second weekend. That's a lot easier to do than every third night like in the NHL. The seasons tickets for the CFL are also considerably cheaper than the NHL.

The CFL therefore is considerably friendlier to a small market situation than the NHL would be. Tickets are cheaper, and the fan base would likely stretch further into the hinterland than it would for a hockey team because fans would only have to travel every second weekend to a game.

My guess is that there might potentially be 8,000 season ticket holders in metro Moncton, with at least an equal number of fans who would frequently (5-6x per year) attend games. This is not enough to support a team and the viabilty of the franchise would depend on casual local fans and out-of-towners.

Is this enough for a franchise? I don't know, but I do know that the hard core support for a Moncton franchise is probably similar to what it would be in Halifax. The difference would be in engaging the interest of casual spectators and getting support from out of town. Halifax is certainly a mecca for regional travel, but Moncton is also a popular destination and a recent report quoted in the Moncton thread mentioned that in 2010, the growth in hotel room rentals in greater Moncton was higher than any other small to medium sized city in eastern Canada, even Quebec City!

The jury therefore is still out. Both Moncton and Halifax are football towns, but I think Moncton is more passionate. Halifax is larger and more prosperous but Moncton is more central and every bit as much of a regional destination. This will continue to be an interestimg story to watch unfold.
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Last edited by MonctonRad; Nov 27, 2011 at 1:45 PM.
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  #823  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 2:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I don't know, but I do know that the hard core support for a Moncton franchise is probably similar to what it would be in Halifax.

The jury therefore is still out. Both Moncton and Halifax are football towns, but I think Moncton is more passionate. Halifax is larger and more prosperous but Moncton is more central and every bit as much of a regional destination.
You assume that the local support in Moncton would be the same as it would be in Halifax? That would mean 3x more people per capita would be football fans. I fail to see any evidence whatsoever to support this claim

Moncton a regional destination on the same scale as Halifax? Huh? Seriously?

If I was hoping to see CFL in Moncton I would be awfully concerned that NO ONE showed up for the Uteck Bowl. I saw the reported attendance figures were around 3500 but I also saw the stands on TV and would bet there was far less than 1000 bums actually in seats. In my opinion that combined with the fact that the last Touchdown Atlantic did not sell out is the end of the Moncton CFL experiment even if the city has not realized it just yet.

I can appreciate your personal passion for the city, but this post is just not realistic in my opinion.
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  #824  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 3:31 AM
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I feel like a lot of this stuff is more a Moncton marketing pitch than an analysis of the facts.

I don't know how Moncton's small local population could be anything but a big liability. A Moncton team is going to have to appeal to locals a lot more to match ticket sales in a market that is 3 times larger. It is like the difference between Halifax and Calgary.

The regional market stuff is sketchy:

1) Nobody has proven that you can sell remotely as many tickets to people 2-3 hours away as you can to locals who have to drive 10-20 minutes to a stadium. On the contrary, even in Regina it seems that most tickets are sold to the small local population. This suggests that local market size is much more important than the number of people 2, 3, or more hours away.

2) Nobody has strongly shown that more people outside of Moncton are more likely to go there than Halifax. The best I've seen is a chart apparently demonstrating that marginally more people live within 3 hours of Moncton than within 3 hours of Halifax -- and this bigger Moncton number includes the population of Halifax. It is really dubious that 400,000+ people in Halifax contribute to Moncton's greatness as a regional market but don't give Halifax a local advantage over Moncton.

3) Nobody seems to want to start up a team in Moncton even though they already have a small stadium, so the whole discussion is pie-in-the-sky.

4) Nobody has demonstrated that Moncton could handle something like a Grey Cup or that it would be a desirable tourist destination for people visiting from other markets.
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  #825  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 4:25 AM
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You assume that the local support in Moncton would be the same as it would be in Halifax? That would mean 3x more people per capita would be football fans. I fail to see any evidence whatsoever to support this claim
Yes I do assume that. I've lived in both cities. Granted, I'm more immersed in football culture in Moncton than I was in Halifax but I used to attend the Uteck Bowls when I lived there and I am convinced that Moncton is more of a football town than Halifax is.

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Moncton a regional destination on the same scale as Halifax? Huh? Seriously?
I didn't exactly say that. I said that Halifax was a regional mecca but that Moncton was also a popular destination. I didn't equate the two. Nonetheless, the rate of growth of hotel room rentals in Moncton is higher than in any other eastern Canadian market. This must stand for something!

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Originally Posted by nwalbert View Post
If I was hoping to see CFL in Moncton I would be awfully concerned that NO ONE showed up for the Uteck Bowl. I saw the reported attendance figures were around 3500 but I also saw the stands on TV and would bet there was far less than 1000 bums actually in seats. In my opinion that combined with the fact that the last Touchdown Atlantic did not sell out is the end of the Moncton CFL experiment even if the city has not realized it just yet.
The attendance quoted for the Uteck Bowl in Moncton was accurate. It was somewhere in the vicinity of 3,700. You were probably basing your observation on the sparsely filled east grandstand. Everyone was sitting in the west grandstand because it was a cold night (-2C) and the west grandstand was protected from the wind. Or, perhaps you were actually watching the other bowl game in Calgary. There were only about a thousand people at that game.

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I can appreciate your personal passion for the city, but this post is just not realistic in my opinion.
I've been accused of being a Moncton booster before, but I think my post was pretty balanced. I don't think that I said anything really bad about Halifax anywhere in the post.

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I feel like a lot of this stuff is more a Moncton marketing pitch than an analysis of the facts.
Sure there's some marketing involved but what's wrong with that as long as you aren't being deliberately misleading. You put your best foot forward but try not to shit on the opposition. That's bad form.....

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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I don't know how Moncton's small local population could be anything but a big liability. A Moncton team is going to have to appeal to locals a lot more to match ticket sales in a market that is 3 times larger. It is like the difference between Halifax and Calgary.
How about the difference between Regina and Toronto. Regina is 15x smaller than TO but has a much more successful franchise.

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Nobody seems to want to start up a team in Moncton even though they already have a small stadium, so the whole discussion is pie-in-the-sky.
I also have not heard any thundering hoofbeats from potential investors in a Halifax franchise.

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Nobody has demonstrated that Moncton could handle something like a Grey Cup or that it would be a desirable tourist destination for people visiting from other markets.
Yes, you are quite right there. You need a stadium with at least 40,000 seats to host a Grey Cup. This would be a huge challenge for both Moncton and Halifax. Any Maritime Grey Cup is literally decades away.....
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  #826  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 4:35 AM
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CFL in Halifax is a non-starter for the time being because there is no suitable stadium.
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  #827  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 2:17 PM
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I can verify first-hand that there were over 3k people at the Uteck game in Moncton. I'm not sure where the "less than 1000" number came from. Maybe it just looked small in the stadium that we have. I stopped monitoring the count after the game kicked off so I have no idea where the numbers went after that.

IMHO, there should be a lot less "we can't, so you OBVIOUSLY can't..." talk and more "let's get this thing off the ground..." talk. A franchise will come to whichever city wants it, builds for it and pays for the tickets.
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  #828  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 2:40 PM
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I feel like a lot of this stuff is more a Moncton marketing pitch than an analysis of the facts.
That would denote some sort of professional agenda, which I don't think exists in this forum. I would interpret it more as "fanbase enthusiasm".
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  #829  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I didn't exactly say that. I said that Halifax was a regional mecca but that Moncton was also a popular destination. I didn't equate the two. Nonetheless, the rate of growth of hotel room rentals in Moncton is higher than in any other eastern Canadian market. This must stand for something!
You said "but Moncton is more central and every bit as much of a regional destination". I assumed you were equating the two but I guess that was not your intent.

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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
You were probably basing your observation on the sparsely filled east grandstand. Everyone was sitting in the west grandstand because it was a cold night (-2C) and the west grandstand was protected from the wind.
Very well could be. I simply turned on the television for about 30 seconds and observed the stands basically empty. Fans could have been sitting on the other side.
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  #830  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 3:23 PM
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Very well could be. I simply turned on the television for about 30 seconds and observed the stands basically empty. Fans could have been sitting on the other side.
I believe all the cams were on the main grandstand side, which would be exactly why you couldn't see the (majority) people seated on the same side.
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  #831  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post

High school football is big here. Regular games routinely get about 1,500 people out. The provincial championship game (that my son's team won) had 4,500 in attendance and was standing room only at Rocky Stone Field. Moncton Minor Football has about 2,000 participants and all six city high schools have varsity teams.
Is there a reason why this final game couldn't have been played at the UdeM stadium? And or, the city of Moncton does own bleachers, why not set one of those 5000 seat temp bleachers at Rocky Stone field for this game?

I think Moncton and the high schools are missing the boat on this one. The organization and parties involved should hire a marketing team to promote high school football much more. Or get the students involved as the marketing team. Web site with current standings = managed by student body, email registration for game updates, small media advertising for game reminders = partnership with radio, newspaper, etc.

How many more folks out there just don't make it out to these games simply because they are not up to date with what's going on? I'm thinking high school football in this region could double up attendance with just a little bit of help.
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  #832  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 5:13 PM
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The reason why this year's Touchdown Atlantic didn't sell out was because Halifax hosted a NHL game the same afternoon.

Think about it. The Moncton stadium was only 800 or so tickets of being sold out. The only mildly bald spot was the top corners of the end zones bleachers. So where were these empty bodies? They were in Halifax watching hockey.

The Halifax game was sold out, that's 10,000 hockey fans. If Halifax didn't host this game, how many of those people would have been in Moncton watching football?

When Touchdown Atlantic sold out in 2 or 3 days last year, I'm curious to know how many tickets could have been sold without a limit. If Halifax didn't host the NHL game this year, I'm curious to know how many tickets could have been sold without a limit.
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  #833  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 6:16 PM
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That would denote some sort of professional agenda, which I don't think exists in this forum. I would interpret it more as "fanbase enthusiasm".
My point is just that a lot of this "enthusiasm" needs to be taken with a grain of salt, at least if you want an accurate picture of the two cities.
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  #834  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 6:18 PM
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My point is just that a lot of this "enthusiasm" needs to be taken with a grain of salt, at least if you want an accurate picture of the two cities.
If you wanted to use pure logic and raw population numbers in order to determine where a franchise should be located, then Regina wouldn't have a CFL team and there would be three franchises in Toronto!
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  #835  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 6:50 PM
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Is there a reason why this final game couldn't have been played at the UdeM stadium? And or, the city of Moncton does own bleachers, why not set one of those 5000 seat temp bleachers at Rocky Stone field for this game?

I think Moncton and the high schools are missing the boat on this one. The organization and parties involved should hire a marketing team to promote high school football much more. Or get the students involved as the marketing team. Web site with current standings = managed by student body, email registration for game updates, small media advertising for game reminders = partnership with radio, newspaper, etc.

How many more folks out there just don't make it out to these games simply because they are not up to date with what's going on? I'm thinking high school football in this region could double up attendance with just a little bit of help.
Good points.

I know my son would have loved to play the final game at the Moncton Stadium. He's talked about it.

The 10 man finals and the 12 man finals were back to back at Rocky Stone. The spectators from the first game had to empty out to let the spectators for the second game in.

Just imagine if these games were held at Moncton Stadium. Even though not everyone would watch both games, it's interesting to speculate that a "high school final football festival" at the Moncton Stadium might draw 7,000-8,000 spectators; perhaps even more if marketed appropriately!

Just imagine what a statement that would make to the naysayers!
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  #836  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 7:16 PM
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My point is just that a lot of this "enthusiasm" needs to be taken with a grain of salt, at least if you want an accurate picture of the two cities.
I don't think you will get that until you can quantify some of the issues surrounding this, chiefly: "How many people will travel how far to get to games in either of these locations?" The stadium itself is the easiest part to put numbers on.
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  #837  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2011, 12:17 AM
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The reason why this year's Touchdown Atlantic didn't sell out was because Halifax hosted a NHL game the same afternoon.

Think about it. The Moncton stadium was only 800 or so tickets of being sold out. The only mildly bald spot was the top corners of the end zones bleachers. So where were these empty bodies? They were in Halifax watching hockey...
I don't think that really had much to do with it. I'm sure some people were at that game that may have gone to watch the CFL game. I can tell you that at one point the CFL tickets were "sold out". After I had a change in my work schedule, I tried to buy tickets but was told it was sold out. Many of my friends were also looking for tickets but were told the same. Those extra tickets that popped up were set aside for the minor football league and were realeased for sale on friday for the sunday game. Unless you heard about it or right place right time, you were out.

I'm sure for the next game, the city will keep be a little more cautious on the number of tickets set aside.
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  #838  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2011, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
The jury therefore is still out. Both Moncton and Halifax are football towns, but I think Moncton is more passionate. Halifax is larger and more prosperous but Moncton is more central and every bit as much of a regional destination. This will continue to be an interestimg story to watch unfold.
It's too bad that Moncton and Halifax weren't right next to each other as we'd likely have a pro football team already. 4,500 for high school football in Moncton puts to shame practically any other city in the nation. That's what I'd expect in Ohio or Texas. If I ever return to the Maritimes permanently, maybe I'll pick Moncton instead.

I remember growing up in Halifax, no one I knew went to hockey games. It was always basketball or football. Perhaps, the football centre of the Maritimes has shifted to Moncton, who knows?
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  #839  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2011, 10:38 AM
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I've been accused of being a Moncton booster before, but I think my post was pretty balanced.
I've always found you to be very objective and fair.

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How about the difference between Regina and Toronto. Regina is 15x smaller than TO but has a much more successful franchise.
Any Maritime team would have to replicate that Saskatchewan success story. It needs to be a major league looking franchise in a minor league market. Even though its the small market teams (Regina, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary) that carry the league, it's the optics in Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto that matter. The CFL needs to expand, but try to remain a big city league, or as close to that as possible. If it fails, marketing in the big city markets becomes increasingly difficult.


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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Yes, you are quite right there. You need a stadium with at least 40,000 seats to host a Grey Cup. This would be a huge challenge for both Moncton and Halifax. Any Maritime Grey Cup is literally decades away.....
It would require at least a decade of solid attendance for a new Maritime franchise before the CFL would entrust an east coast city with hosting a Grey Cup.
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  #840  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2011, 3:57 PM
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Halifax would NEVER be able to support a CFL team. Halifax is an NFL city, so we would be better off being the first city in Canada to have an NFL team before a CFL team.
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