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  #761  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2011, 10:32 PM
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In reading the past comments there are a lot of reasons their may not be a regular season game next year.
What about going back to a pre-season game and seeing what happens? Is it worth the cost? I believe Halifax deserves another chance. We all remember what it was like when they canned touchdown Atlantic II because of Ottawa losing it's team. Let's get the stadium up, host a game and see where it goes.
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  #762  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2011, 11:06 PM
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They had perfect sunny warm weather, everything you needed to sell-out, yet it didn't happen. It's a red flag. The novelty is wearing out in Moncton and there is just not the population there to fill the needed 25,000 permanent seats for 10 games a year.
Ah yes, another unbiased analysis from q12, the same guy who on the Airports Thread basically stated that all New Brunswickers should give up any aspirations of improving our airline route choices and instead should be grateful that we can hop on 20 seat turboprops to Halifax Stanfield so that we can make connections to Toronto. His pro Halifax bias is amazing. He obviously views NB as a Nova Scotian colony. It's as if any history after 1785 doesn't exist.

97% of a sellout is pretty darn good. As mmmatt said, the only empty seats were nosebleeds in the high corners of the endzones. A lot of people were under the assumption that the game actually was sold out. I'm not disappointed at all by the crowd. As has been previously stated, people would be a lot more emotionally involved if we had an actual home team to root for.

Naysayers aside, it was an amazing afternoon!
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  #763  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2011, 11:31 PM
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I was traveling this week and given a Globe and Mail on board . The only CFL article focused on the fact that the game did not sellout. When the first game sold out quickly it gave people hope that maybe there was 30-40,000 fans in Atlantic Canada who wanted tickets but there simply wasn't enough tickets.

Even selling 97% means that not enough people wanted to go to even fill the stadium. This the view that I am seeing.

At the end of the day, the CFL will most likely grant a team to any ownership group who has a solid plan and who is willing to take the risk. Moncton's biggest challenge is finding someone who is willing to bet their money that a team in Moncton can succeed. That is where I believe they will fall short.

As far as another Touchdown Atlantic, reading between the lines it really seems like the CFL would like to try this someplace else next time. If no other options appear (ie: a Halifax stadium) I am sure they will be back.

If not, that $5 million that the city still owes is not going to look too good.
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  #764  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2011, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Ah yes, another unbiased analysis from q12, the same guy who on the Airports Thread basically stated that all New Brunswickers should give up any aspirations of improving our airline route choices and instead should be grateful that we can hop on 20 seat turboprops to Halifax Stanfield so that we can make connections to Toronto. His pro Halifax bias is amazing. He obviously views NB as a Nova Scotian colony. It's as if any history after 1785 doesn't exist.

97% of a sellout is pretty darn good. As mmmatt said, the only empty seats were nosebleeds in the high corners of the endzones. A lot of people were under the assumption that the game actually was sold out. I'm not disappointed at all by the crowd. As has been previously stated, people would be a lot more emotionally involved if we had an actual home team to root for.

Naysayers aside, it was an amazing afternoon!
Hey there is no shame in showing a bias! And I would never apologize for being bias. The Moncton bias in this thread is just as bad if not worse to the point of delusional.

Moncton forumers are bias for Moncton and Halifax forumers are bias for Halifax, what are ya gonna do.

You don't expect us to start cheering for the wildcats do you? Rivalries are great and it may be the reason we can never have an Atlantic team unless we annex New Brunswick and P.E.I.

I'm also glad to see the NHL game in Halifax was brought up as an excuse. It actually shows how much Moncton would rely on fans from Halifax, and how having another event in the region on the same day could be a problem for CFL games in Moncton along with bad weather among other things.
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  #765  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2011, 12:49 AM
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Moncton, Halifax urged to team up on CFL bid

From cbc.ca

Moncton must reach out to Halifax if it wants to land a Canadian Football League franchise, according to an ex-player.

Jan Carinci, a member of the organizing committee that brought a regular season game to Moncton for the past two years, said it's time the two cities start working together if either wants to make a successful pitch to the CFL for a Maritime franchise.

"I get it, OK, there's a little bit of a rivalry between the two towns. But if the CFL comes here, it will be on a regional basis,” Carinci said.

"It won't be just Moncton. It won't be just Halifax. It has to have broad-base support.”

Carinci, who split time between the Toronto Argonauts and the B.C. Lions in his 10-year CFL career between 1981 and 1990, said he would like to see Moncton serve as the home base for a Maritime football team.

However, he said one game could be played in Halifax every season and training camp could be held on Prince Edward Island.

"It's all to try and broaden that ticket base so that you've got people interested that are going to drive two and a half hours, like they do in Saskatchewan,” he said.

No one from the Halifax Regional Municipality was available to comment.

The Nova Scotia city is in the midst of studying the viability of a new stadium that would seat 15,000 people.

The University of Moncton stadium holds approximately 21,000 fans, when temporary seating is added.

Moncton’s first regular season CFL game in 2010 sold out in roughly 30 hours. However, the weekend game held between the Hamilton Tiger Cats and Calgary Stampeders had about 800 seats empty.

The CFL has not committed to returning for a third season in Moncton.

Moncton and Halifax have had a recent rivalry surrounding the hosting of football games.

Moncton was picked to be the host city for the Uteck Bowl, which is the national university semifinal game, in 2011, 2013 and 2015.
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  #766  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2011, 2:11 AM
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Couple things to keep in mind.

- The game was 97% sold out...not shabby for a 2nd year "luster worn off" game

- The teams were from 1200km (Hamilton) and 5000km (Calgary) away. Not exactly "root for the home team" material.

- There was a pre-season NHL game in Halifax on the same day (I have a friend who attended that who said he would have been at the CFL otherwise).

- The remaining seats were in the nosebleeds of the end-zones.

- The cost per ticket was higher than that of a larger, regular CFL stadium game due to less seats available and the cost of the temp seats.

- The product (2 away teams) and the venue (1/2 temp seats in end zones) are not enough of a draw in relation to the higher cost of a seat for some fans.

All in all I would say it was a great turnout and I think people are just grasping at straws to try and prove that Moncton cant handle a team (Please dont quote Rick Howe as he is the most biased pro Hali journalist out there!)../It may be true that we cant handle a team I don't know, but this years game certainly is not proof of that. We had a TON of football activities (high school and AUS games) and they were all well attended in the week leading up to this. Fan support is the least of my worries at this point.

The main detractors at this point are:

- Not enough permanent seats at stadium.

- No corporate support has come forward (this likely wont happen until
things get more serious)

Exactly, good points; of note these last two points also highlight what "getting your cards in order" would entail.

I think I've asked this before, perhaps I haven't; Is there enough corporate muscle in Moncton to support a franchise?
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  #767  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2011, 2:29 AM
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Exactly, good points; of note these last two points also highlight what "getting your cards in order" would entail.

I think I've asked this before, perhaps I haven't; Is there enough corporate muscle in Moncton to support a franchise?
This list I made on Wikipedia should get you started...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...red_in_Moncton

That being said I don't think that any one company (or person) in Moncton could be a sole owner (Other than Robert Irving, but he already owns the Wildcats)

I believe a strong ownership group would need to come forward...Bernard Cyr (Doolys, Chateau Moncton/SJ), Robert Irving (Majesta, Midland, Cavendish Farms etc), Bernard Imbeault (Pizza Delight, Mikes, Baton Rouge, Scores), Denis Losier (Assumption Life)

Those guys would be a group that could do the job easily...That would depend on a lot of factors, and I doubt all (if any) are interested...but there is support out there, its just a matter of time until it comes to the fore.
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  #768  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2011, 3:04 AM
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Those guys would be a group that could do the job easily...
....if the economy wasn't absolutely in the dumps right now.
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  #769  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2011, 11:08 AM
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Is there enough corporate muscle in Moncton to support a franchise?
No, and the CFL knows it.
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  #770  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2011, 11:43 AM
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No, and the CFL knows it.
There is more wealth in Moncton than some might think. The four individuals whose names mmmatt put forth are good choices. To that list I would add Jon Manship. He made many millions of dollars when he sold Spielo. Wes Armour (Armour Transportation) would also be a likely choice.

Of course, that's not to say that these people are actually interested, but Cohon apparently has met with a "council" of business leaders to discuss the project. I don't know who these individuals were....

Another option of course is community ownership, an idea that works in Saskatchewan. Community ownership was also floated as an option in the Halifax forum.
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  #771  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2011, 3:12 PM
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I have taken the liberty of reposting this article in it's entirety from the Times & Transcript. It offers important insight and answers some important questions....I have annotated and highlighted some text where appropriate.

McCain offers views on Atlantic CFL franchise
Published Wednesday September 28th, 2011
by neil hodge
Times & transcript staff

Scott McCain doesn't pretend to have all the answers when it comes to the viability of an Atlantic franchise in the Canadian Football League, but he has some interesting views.

"I think everybody has to start putting the spin on it being an Atlantic Canada team," said McCain, who's the president and chief operating officer of the Agribusiness Group at Maple Leaf Foods Inc.

"I think it has to be marketed as an Atlantic Canada team because you're going to need to draw fan support and corporate sponsorship from across the region. It would be very difficult for Moncton or Halifax to support a CFL team on its own."

CFL commissioner Mark Cohon is forming a new advisory council that comprises Atlantic Canada business leaders. McCain is part of this council that's designed to help Cohon look into the league's future in this part of the country.

The Hamilton Tiger-Cats defeated the Calgary Stampeders 55-36 on Sunday in front of 20,153 fans at the Stade Moncton 2010 Stadium. It's the second consecutive year the CFL has held a regular season game in Moncton, something that's never been done before in the Atlantic region.

This has heightened interest and renewed talk of the possibility of an Atlantic CFL franchise.

Moncton's stadium has the potential to be expanded to approximately 28,000 seats and a CFL franchise can operate viably with a 25,000 attendance average. This is the only place in Atlantic Canada that has a stadium which can be upgraded to meet league standards.

The Saskatchewan Roughriders are thriving on the business side. That's because they receive fan support and corporate sponsorship from across the province, not just Regina where the team is based.

"Since this whole thing with Moncton started, Mark Cohon has called me a number of times to get my views," said McCain. "He's talked to me at some length over the situation in Atlantic Canada.

"He's trying to pull together some people in Atlantic Canada to see if they can give him some advice on what might work and what might not work. He's forming a council to take a look at this and help steer him with regards to what the league's next steps might be."

McCain, a Maritimer who's now based in Toronto, is also majority owner of the Saint John Sea Dogs of the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League. His club captured both the QMJHL title and Memorial Cup national championship last season.

"I know in junior hockey there are big rivalries between Moncton, Saint John, Halifax and the other Maritime cities that have teams in the league," he said. "I can respect that.

"But we need to get past that city versus city way of thinking when it comes to the CFL in Atlantic Canada. We've got to break down that mentality. If you want a CFL team in the Atlantic region, there's no city that can make it happen by itself. The team name has to have Atlantic in it.

"It would have to be marketed and talked about as an Atlantic team. I think Moncton is where the team should be located because it's the geographic centre of the Maritimes. Moncton is more accessible than Halifax for a greater number of people." <- What he said!

McCain has attended both CFL games in Moncton. He spent three days here last week soaking up the various community festivals and events that were associated with Scotiabank Touchdown Atlantic II.

He's been to six Grey Cups. He was impressed with the party atmosphere that surrounded Moncton's CFL game, saying it was giant event that felt like a mini Grey Cup environment.

"I'm a proud Atlantic Canadian and I like seeing a sporting event like this come to this part of the country," he said. "I think they did a great job with the community festivals and creating a great atmosphere for both CFL games in Moncton."

The Atlantic region has wealthy families such as the McCains, Irvings, Sobeys and Olands. But McCain has told the CFL commissioner that he believes it would be a challenge to get the necessary corporate sponsorship for an Atlantic franchise.

"I know I can speak for companies like McCain Foods and Maple Leaf Foods," he said. "I think they would find difficulty in it because to be honest that's not an area where they usually play. They don't play a lot of sports marketing.

"It's going to take a lot of soul searching to figure out where is there a pocket of corporate sponsorship that will make this thing fly. I'm not sure about that yet. I think that's the bigger piece than the fan base. You'll have to go to Atlantic Lotto, Blue Cross, East Link and these companies that are regional. Regional companies would have to take an interest in it." personal note - both Atlantic Lotto and Blue Cross are based in Moncton. Molson/Coors also has a Moncton brewery

The CFL commissioner hasn't yet approached anyone from the Irving family about being part of his Atlantic advisory council. Cohon said that he will probably talk to Robert Irving at some point.

"I know that Robert Irving has no interest in this," said McCain. (!!!!)" Frankly, if an Atlantic CFL team is going to fly it would be really nice to have the Irving family take an interest in it."

The CFL commissioner hasn't committed to having a regular season game in Moncton next year. It's a lot of work to stage a neutral site game and turn it into a major event. Cohon points out the league will be very busy next year with celebrations for the 100th Grey Cup.

Hamilton will be homeless in 2013 when Ivor Wynne Stadium is demolished and rebuilt. Cohon points out there could be an opportunity for multiple Tiger-Cats home games in Moncton that season.

"If it was marketed properly, I think an Atlantic franchise would draw fans from across the region," said McCain.

"Maritimers like to get together and have fun. They like tailgate parties. I think an Atlantic team could be a rallying point that brings people together."

The two Scotiabank Touchdown Atlantic games in Moncton were high profile and successful from an event perspective.

"There's a big difference between marketing an event and marketing a team," said McCain. "My advice for the CFL commissioner is to be really patient here. Look at this over the long haul and build it slowly.

"Maybe go two games per year in Moncton. You've got to try to gauge the interest level (in the CFL in the Atlantic region) beyond just an event."


* Neil Hodge is a Times & Transcript sports reporter who covered Scotiabank Touchdown Atlantic II.
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  #772  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2011, 4:29 PM
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I finally uploaded my pics of the game. See them here,

http://s83.photobucket.com/albums/j3...view=slideshow

Just a teaser,

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  #773  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2011, 12:07 AM
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"... Moncton is more accessible than Halifax for a greater number of people."
This is one of those "maybe if we repeat it enough it will just become true" type statements. It has yet to be proven. I'm not sure it's true, and I don't believe it's very important.

Consider the fact that Halifax's population is already about 55% the size of the population of all of New Brunswick. What will that be in another 20 years? 75%?

A stadium is dramatically more accessible to a local resident than it is for somebody living 2+ hours away. This is why even in Regina a great majority of tickets (85% apparently) are sold to locals. Halifax's considerably larger local population is more important than Moncton's supposedly marginally better regional position, because unless the team is very exceptional locals will be buying most of the tickets.

Ticket sales aren't everything but even if Moncton's position is more central it's hard to see how it would be a big advantage when it comes to marketing or selling merchandise. And I would bet that locals also spend disproportionately on merchandise and respond more to marketing.

Moncton CFL talk reminds me a lot of Halifax NHL talk. It could theoretically happen but it's unlikely because of the size of the local markets and the amount of money involved.
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  #774  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2011, 12:58 AM
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Halifax is unquestionably larger than Moncton. Moncton is unquestionably more central to more of the Maritime population. It is a debatable point which of these two factors is more important. Scott McCain has given his opinion to Commissioner Cohon.

Regarding Halifax's future population WRT New Brunswick's population; you're obviously assuming that Halifax will continue to grow at a rapid clip and that NB will stagnate. While this might seem plausible, that isn't to say that this in fact is what is going to transpire. Halifax already has nearly 45% of Nova Scotia's population. What do you think the ultimate ratio will be; 60%, 75%, 90%? Even Winnipeg only has about 60% of Manitoba's population. There has to be a natural end point to Halifax's growth.

Also, while Halifax is growing rapidly, so is Moncton. In relative terms, Moncton's growth rate is even faster than Halifax (I know that Halifax's absolute growth rate is higher). Still, if Moncton continues at it's present clip, it will be at 200,000 by about 2035. It's not as if the rest of the region (outside Halifax) is senescing. Actually, the province that currently has the highest growth rate in the dominion is PEI!

The jury is still out. We don't know who will win. Halifax may get the upper hand if they are able to build a good quality stadium, but I don't think Moncton will stop putting up a good fight. One thing I know for certain is that the CFL will likely take a long time before coming to any decision. I bet nothing will happen until 2020 at the earliest.
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  #775  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2011, 1:04 AM
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BTW, nice pics Budyser!
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  #776  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2011, 1:17 AM
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Yeah I would agree the Moncton is more accessible to more out-of-province people, but is definitely not more accessible to larger total amount of people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Canada

If you add the populations of Moncton, Fredericton and Saint John together, you get about 353 000 people. (*Moncton's 2011 CMA is actually about 137 000, not 129 000 as Wikipedia has listed). This 353 000 is still under 50 000 people short of Halifax's population, and is very spread out (obviously).
I don't think we can expect people to drive more than 1.5 hours to watch a game once the novelty factor wears off so I really don't think being central is an advantage for Moncton at all. Yes, it would bring more out of province people from NB, NS, and PEI... but it would still be less total people overall.

Within an hour of Halifax is over 500 000 people, and just under 200 000 people for Moncton. If we go past 2 hours, we start overlapping which is very inaccurate because people from Truro , New Glasgow, and Kentville would obviously rather travel to Halifax since it is closer for them. Yes, PEI would rather travel to Moncton but that population is pretty equal to the metros of Truro, New Glasgow and Kenville (140 000 vs 110 000).

The whole surrounding area thing is only realistic if you don`t include overlapping population centres, only include them in the city that they are closest to (ex. Amherst-Moncton, Truro- Halifax). This is why I think a 1.5 hour radius makes the most sense, because anything over that and all of a sudden Moncton gets a huge advantage because it starts including areas that are much closer to Halifax than itself, and eventually it adds 410 000 from Halifax, which doesn't make sense when we are comparing the two cities (not to mention the idea that most people wont travel over two hours anymore after a few seasons are through)

Yes, being centrally located definitely closes the gap a little in the vast population differences between Halifax and Moncton, but it in no way gives Moncton an advantage unless we talk unrealistically and start including parts of Halifax`s large economic region (three quarters of NS) to Moncton, because we all know that Halifax is more accessible to the vast majority of the 950 000 people in NS (not Amherst obviously, so subtract around 20 000 from that 950 000).

PS- Am I the only one that finds it slightly embarassing that people think that Moncton and Halifax have to share a team in order for it to work...I think that both Halifax and Moncton could support a team on their own if either is granted a team, but when comparing the two, Halifax makes much more sense to me, but Im obviously not making the decision.
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  #777  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2011, 2:11 AM
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My personal opinion is that Haligonians would never support a single Maritime franchise based in Moncton. Halifax will ultimately eventually get a team.

A team based in Moncton however could be the "team for the rest of us". I too think that a two team solution would work, but this would require some preconditions:

- a commitment by the CFL for substantial expansion of the league (at least 12 teams and possibly 16).
- the Moncton franchise would have to be established first. If Halifax gets a franchise, Moncton never will. If Moncton gets a franchise, Halifax eventually would too.

So, it's important that Moncton keep up the good fight in order to get established first. This particular race is sudden death for Moncton (but not for Halifax).
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  #778  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2011, 5:30 AM
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My personal opinion is that Haligonians would never support a single Maritime franchise based in Moncton. Halifax will ultimately eventually get a team.
As impressed as I am with Moncton's efforts/ambition, it will likely go to Halifax. I agree with what you're saying. If Moncton ever wants a team, it must get there first.
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  #779  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2011, 11:21 AM
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I also agree, and I think Haligonians should be very thankful that Moncton is so ambitious and finally made Halifax wake-up to the stadium/CFL issue.
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Old Posted Sep 30, 2011, 2:41 PM
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A team based in Moncton however could be the "team for the rest of us".
I think you are being a bit optimistic thinking that folks form PEI, Fredericton, and Saint John are going to travel 3+ Hours roundtrip on a week night to watch a Moncton CFL Team. The fact that they couldn't fill the stadium on a Saturday/Sunday afternoon once a season is somewhat telling in that department.

The biggest blow yet however I believe is the fact that the McCains and Irvings have gone public with the fact they have no interest in ownership. In my opinion that basically eliminates any chance of a team in Moncton. All of the other names listed would be risking their entire net worth which is unlikely to happen.
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