HARRISBURG-LANCASTER-LEBANON-YORK | South Central, PA | Regional Development Thread

[EastSideHBG]

First off, welcome to the forum, moseley! Thanks a lot for the info. But "all 79 pages of this thread have 'skipped over' some of the most exciting work being done in the City" for the reasons Young Gun stated below:

Originally Posted by Young Gun

Most of it is skipped over for no other reason than we don't live in that neighborhood and not alot gets mention (that is good) in the paper about the Hill

I know its not an excuse, but it is a reason I guess

Hopefully you will be able to change this for us.

And I'm happy to see all of the new HBG forumers now! Since I no longer live there and out of the loop, it's nice to have you guys to keep me updated on things.

[Young Gun]

sorry about that East Side. I edited my post while you were writing yours apparently. i didn't think what I had put in the parenthesis sounded the way I meant it after I had submitted the post.

[moseley]

Originally Posted by Young Gun

Most of it is skipped over for no other reason than we don't live in that neighborhood and not alot gets mention (of a positive nature) in the paper about the Hill

I know its not an excuse, but it is a reason I guess

I have noticed the changes along Market Street as I drive through, good job!! Are the home ower occupied or are they rental units? Since you are a non profit do you buy renovate and sell or what is your business model?

I didn't mean to sound negative about the 79 pages. We don't always do a good job at getting the word out.

The first picture on the page of the burned out units is rental as is Market Street. The second set of pictures 1521-1529 Derry are Homeownership. We also have 4 of the 5 million needed for a 25 unit new subdivision at 16th and Swatara.

The first of the 25 units will be a Net-Zero Energy home. It is designed to produce more power than it will use. The sad thing about the house is that since PA dropped the ball on net-metering the home will still have a yearly utility bill from PPL of approximately $120 or $10 a month.

We also have projects in other nearby areas:

• Historic Rehab of the Newport Hotel.
• Rehab for Resale in Steelton.
• Rehab for Resale in Enola.
• New Construction for Homeowners in Millersburg.

What's our business model? We use public and private funds to complete revitalization projects that private developer can't or won't do. I guess I would call our business model Opportunistic. If we can find the money...We'll do it!

[Young Gun]

That is sad about the net metering, I live alone, my electric bill only comes to approximately $20 a month so to have spent the extra effort and not get an appreciable return has to be disappointing.


Continue the good work!!!

oh and have I missed 6 pages of this thread?

[Spudmrg]

Long time no vist.

Good news all around on the new construction, through the continued lack of retail shopping and non-nightclub places of interest (downtown) is rather disappointing. It would be nice if (as has been mentioned before) one did'nt have to drive for groceries.

[Young Gun]

If everyone was willing to chip in their allowance, I'd be more than happy to start a grocery store...

all kidding aside the big money (lowest risk at least) at the moment in Harrisburg is the fill in construction projects in Midtown. When that market is saturated I expect that people will start to look elsewhere to make money. At the moment there isn't much retail, just like 10 years ago there wasn't any nightlife. Special deals created the critical mass to fuel that growth. Perhaps some incentive seed project could create the interest needed to get others to invest

thoughts anyone?

[moseley]

Rumor has it a "Save-a-Lot" will be going in on the hill. Not a full-fledged grocery store but it is a start.

[moseley]

Originally Posted by Young Gun

At the moment there isn't much retail, just like 10 years ago there wasn't any nightlife. Special deals created the critical mass to fuel that growth. Perhaps some incentive seed project could create the interest needed to get others to invest

thoughts anyone?

Harrisburg is cursed by the inability to change its border. In 1972 The PA Supreme Court struck down the annexation laws because the “new” constitution gave a deadline for the legislature to pass new rules on boundary changes. Our legislature shied from the mandated task and here we are 35 years later and legislature is still refusing to act on the issue.

As a result, PA is faced with layer over layer of political red tape making it difficult to attract companies. On top of that areas like Harrisburg are in a real bind. Virtually any tax base is outside of the City limits. Although Mayor Reed has done a good job at attracting new development to his little patch of land, he is still faced with a tax base that is largely based on the people who have the least per capita income in the region. The way that PA deals with school taxes only makes the issue worse. The densest and poorest area pays the highest taxes. Harrisburg’s faire department is often the first on the scene in surrounding areas where the volunteer fire fighters take too long to respond. Areas outside of Harrisburg use the incinerator water sewer and other essential services.

Harrisburg is doomed until the legislature acts on the law they were suppose to pass in 1970.

I grew up in Topeka, Kansas, A Capitol City like Harrisburg. Topeka’s Metropolitan Statistical Area has a population in excess of 229,000. Harrisburg’s MSA has a population of 652,000. So Topeka is a third the size of Harrisburg. But the population of the City of Topeka has a population of 122,000 which in over 150% the size of Harrisburg. There is a real disconnect here.

Cities like Harrisburg are doomed until PA starts following the same laws are the rest of nation.

[moseley]

BUILDING BOOM
Linglestown Road area sees growth
Tuesday, June 12, 2007
BY DIANA FISHLOCK
Of The Patriot-News

Construction is booming along Linglestown Road and that will continue if developers' plans are approved.

A new Dunkin' Donuts/Baskin Robbins and a large medical practice are open for business, and a bank and a strip mall are being built. Developers hope to get approval to build a day spa, an upscale restaurant and an office building, according to township officials.

"This is all sort of working together," said Brian Evans, managing partner of Patton Place, a canopied strip mall under construction.

"It does sound like a fun area," said Dianne Moran, Lower Paxton Twp. planning and zoning officer.

Fran George, a township resident, has mixed feelings.

"The traffic is bad," said George, who loves her town house at Kensington Place, a community behind the Weis supermarket on Linglestown Road.

Besides the commercial development, several residential developments are being built, and the construction trucks further clog Linglestown Road, she said.

New restaurants are OK, but George prefers they not serve liquor. She said she's concerned about drunken drivers.

"It is one of the handiest places to live," said George, who moved there two years ago. "You have just about everything at your fingertips. We love where we live right now. In the future, I don't know what will happen."

New and proposed businesses include:

# The Dunkin' Donuts/Baskin Robbins is open at 4342 Linglestown Road.

# A Commerce Bank branch is being built at 4350 Linglestown Road.

# Behind those two properties, the 22,000-square-foot plaza called Patton Place is being built at 2308 Patton Road. An Italian restaurant, a fitness center, a nail salon and two to three other restaurants and seven other stores are scheduled to open between Labor Day and Thanksgiving, Evans said.

# PinnacleHealth Lower Paxton FamilyCare at 2310 Patton Road opened Jan. 2. The 13,050-square-foot facility combined two practices that include five doctors and two registered nurse practitioners.

"It's a site that provides family medicine services for the entire family," PinnacleHealth spokesman Kim Payne said. The center provides routine medical care and acute care for illnesses and injuries.

In Susquehanna Twp., Cedar Shopping Centers Inc. plans to build a 116,000- square-foot shopping center anchored by a Giant supermarket. The developer agreed to a six-month delay while the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation prepares suggestions on road improvements.

Except for the Linglestown Square project, there are no plans to widen Linglestown Road in either Lower Paxton or Susquehanna townships, PennDOT spokesman Greg Penny said.

On the vacant lot between the Weis market and Colonial Road, developers are proposing these businesses, which township officials have not yet approved:

# A two-story, 31,685-
square-foot restaurant with seating for at least 500. It would include a sports bar and an upscale restaurant, Moran said.

# A day spa.

# A two-story, 12,168-square-foot office building.

DIANA FISHLOCK: 255-8251 or dfishlock@patriot-news.com

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by moseley

Cities like Harrisburg are doomed until PA starts following the same laws are the rest of nation.

But what can you really do, though? Even if the laws were changed, HBG is competing against some pretty strong municipalities...I really don't see Susquehanna Twp. allowing (or needing/wanting) anything to be annexed. Penbrook *maybe*, but then the city would be in the same boat (if not worse) since that municipality is struggling and flirting with bankruptcy. Steelton? They seem to be coming back around and I could see a HUGE fight go down there...

I see what you are saying, moseley, but it's the city and the region's stupid fault for the SEVERE lack of foresight when borders were drawn. Also, Harrisburg is in the boat it is in because of the dumb mistakes it does time and time again...the overall leadership is and has always been horrible IMO.

Instead I say we go the route of MD and some other states and have a strong county system. It won't solve it all but it will definitely help.

Originally Posted by moseley

Rumor has it a "Save-a-Lot" will be going in on the hill. Not a full-fledged grocery store but it is a start.

I work for the company that owns them and we haven't received any word on it yet. Not saying that it is not in the works behind the scenes, just saying that if it is, it is in the planning stages at this point and I wouldn't expect much news this year. Also, we're closing our distribution center on Industrial Road in the next three years unfortunately and everything will come out of our warehouse in Lancaster. I mention this because if that store is in the works, these logistics will come into play.

On the plus side there is a very aggressive store opening plan and we want to expand, so anything is possible, as we have no presence in the South Central PA market. I don't think our ACME stores would work there again, though (there were ACMEs all over the area many moons ago; owned by a different company, though) and I'm sure if you do get something, it will be under the Save-A-Lot moniker.

RE: the development news along Linglestown Rd., I can't say that I am impressed at all. In typical Harrisburg fashion it is more of the exact same crap you can find a mere few miles down the road in any direction. I guess the market dictates as such, though.

New restaurants are OK, but George prefers they not serve liquor. She said she's concerned about drunken drivers.

LOL typical South Central PA!

[moseley]

Save A Lot has been negotiating for the Coca-Cola building on 17th. I don't know if it has stalled or not but I believe it was at least 2-years out.

The strong County idea solves the problem too. I mentioned the boundary change laws because the 1968 PA constitutional convention directly mandated that the legislature work out new laws to deal with the problem then the 1972 Court case specifically pointed out that there can be no provisional laws until the legislature fulfills it's mandate. Almost 40 years have passed and they have failed to act. Let’s face it 49 states have more workable boundary change laws. Regardless of what some people may feel, at some point law makers have to serve the greater good.

[Young Gun]

Nice discussion gentlemen. Prepare for another one of my extended posts.

I agree that consolidation of municipalities would be a good thing from a reduction of bureaucracy and fighting common issues together. Indeed you can go through several different "suburbs" (for the lack of a better term) of Harrisburg and not even realize you've left the city. They use the same street names, or continue Harrisburg's numbering system.

Over the long term a strong county government would be detrimental to the greater Harrisburg metro area. It would drive a spike between the East and West shores. The west shore communities are a part of Harrisburg. In a typical city they would be within the city limits. Conversely a strong county wide school system throughout Pennsylvania should help ease Harrisburg’s school tax burden at the local level, but would probably increase the cost to the local communities as is shared Harrisburg’s burden.

You have to fight battles with the weapons that you have at hand. In case nobody has noticed I am an optimist and believe there is a way to get anything done. The long term goal should be to pass legislation that would allow annexation of land. Until that happens Harrisburg is burdened with a large percentage of untaxable land. Perhaps it could argue this to the state for a bigger piece of the state pie. Harrisburg has a large amount of infill from the decades of decline that needs to be used up. Get houses and business built on this land. If it takes giving a 10 year tax holiday such as the Capital Heights development area so be it. Get them built. The sooner the tax holiday starts the sooner it will run out. The land and dilapidated houses are worth very little tax revenue in their current condition. Some vacant lots are owned by the city.

A second method to increasing the tax revenue to the city would be to increase the property value being taxed. This would be a negative for homeowners so the way that you could increase the property value without driving out all of the new homeowners is to change increase taxes in areas other than residential. Developing the business district of Harrisburg (the current CBD) and extending the commercial area through the proposed Southern Gateway, and along 6th and 7th Streets away from the current downtown. Most people in the city seem to think that the down town can only extend down 2nd street. The CBD is really constricted to South of Liberty Street, and for the most part it would be hard to develop anything not located in a current house North of State Street. The best places (in my opinion) for commercial development are cut off from easy vehicular access from current commercial locations. There are several ways to create easier access to 6th and 7th streets. A new commercial zone could be created where traffic can flow from Walnut to Reily along 6th and 7th. The best part is that none of this land is in historic districts. Much of it is undeveloped or parking lots

• Reverse the direction of traffic on Walnut Street. Do the same on the section of Market from Front to 5th Street to accommodate traffic in the opposite direction. This might hurt traffic flow through the Hill, but I don’t really have the means at my disposal to make that determination.

• Create more bridges over the train tracks so the tracks don’t act like a wall to keep development in. Better Access between Cameron and the rest of the city would help to spur development along this street. It is already set up for good traffic flow; however the roads surface is in a major need of an overhaul.

I think the city could become cash rich if it intelligently developed the plans above. If the city was cash rich it would have the means to increase its effective land area without resorting to legislative wrangling. The train lines cutting a swath through the city could be moved underground. It would be a massive undertaking but would increase the developable land by approximately 10% by my rough estimation looking at Google Maps. I have no idea how much this would cost but it would be lots. Maybe the city could get the state and federal governments to pitch in if it could tie the project to some improvements in public transit and Amtrak.
Lastly East Side if you work for a company that is putting in a grocery store tell them to give us a deliver option!! I am willing to pay a 10% premium on my groceries for the convenience. (I only spend $25 a week now so it wouldn’t really be a lot of money)


I better stop before this post reaches an unreadable length.

[EastSideHBG]

Good post, Young Gun!

[MidtownMike]

Down to 2: Officials look at downtown sites for federal courthouse

Posted by John Luciew/The Patriot-News June 21, 2007 12:35PM

A federal courthouse for Harrisburg could be built in downtown Harrisburg under a short list of site alternatives unveiled today by the U.S. General Services Administration.

The GSA narrowed the list down to two sites:

The southwest corner of North Third and Pine streets.

The southeast corner of North Second and Locust streets.

Federal officials said they wanted to be in Harrisburg's central business district.

The Patriot-NewsTwo possible locations of the federal courthouse include Third and Pine streets and Second and Locust streets.

GSA Regional Administrator Barbara L. Shelton announced the alternatives today after spending about five months studying a list of 10 possible locations for the $100 million courthouse project.

The agency now will study the alternatives in far greater detail with hopes of identifying a final site by early 2008.

GSA is charged with finding a replacement site for the courthouse at Walnut and Locust streets, mainly to meet security requirements. The six- to 14-floor, 262,970-square-foot courthouse would have eight courtrooms and space for expansion. It is to be ready by 2012. The existing building would continue to house other federal offices.

The agency is hoping for far better results than that of it's first search, begun in 2004, which resulted in all three preferred alternatives being rejected.

In that case, all three finalist sites would have uprooted scores of residents, at Cumberland Court apartments, the Jackson-Lick public housing towers, or in the Capitol-area neighborhood at Third and Forster streets. A public backlash ultimately forced the agency to scuttle its first search and start anew last fall.

For more on this story, see tomorrow's editions of The Patriot-News.

[Young Gun]

so instead they'll close up properous businesses? I gotta get some of the stuff the GSA smokes they are f'in stupid!!!

The site on third and pine isn't much better...

[harrisburger]

i don't understand it...after all of the uproar of the last time, they still try to go directly downtown. maybe they hope the people are less sympathetic to commercial enterprises. i think they're wrong. we'll have another search on our hands next year. sooner or later they'll come to their senses and join either the northern or southern gateway

[EastSideHBG]

This is a TOTAL JOKE! All of the available land in HBG and they choose to screw up the thriving part?!? Another perfect example of how our federal gov't has absolutely no clue in hell as to what it is doing. If I were the city, I would sue the s*it out of the GSA and tie the construction up for years in litigation...this is a historic area, and I'm sure it would be easy to tie things up due to that.

2nd and Locust would put this new building right next to the old one. You know, the one that sucks so bad they have to replace it, and was ranked as one of the worst in the nation for security.

And what a hit the nightlife district will take! This is just bad, bad, bad...

[Young Gun]

Does anyone have an address for the GSA? I am sure it wouldn't be hard to stand by the Sandwich Man and pick up a lot of signatures.

Call me a conspiracy theorist but I say they propose the Locust Street location because they want to place it on Third. What is in that building on the corner of Third and Pine? I can't seem to remember. I know Vartan Bank owns the lot next to the corner of Third and Pine.

[danwxman]

Originally Posted by Young Gun

Does anyone have an address for the GSA? I am sure it wouldn't be hard to stand by the Sandwich Man and pick up a lot of signatures.

Call me a conspiracy theorist but I say they propose the Locust Street location because they want to place it on Third. What is in that building on the corner of Third and Pine? I can't seem to remember. I know Vartan Bank owns the lot next to the corner of Third and Pine.

I wouldn't mind seeing that parking lot disappear, but not at the expense of the nearby buildings. There is a new coffeeshop (Java's Brewin) that just opened up in the historic midrise next to that lot. I saw on ABC27 that the GSA is considering incorporating that building into the new one, but all the businesses in that building would of course have to move out including the new coffeeshop. I think if anything the Third and Pine location should be chosen, but once again that is prime real estate downtown that could be used for another office or residential building that would actually be contributing to the tax base.

[Young Gun]

I agree I'd like to see the parking lot go, but as far as parking lots in Harrisburg it isn't that bad looking... I just don't think that you should be consuming prime commercial real estate so that it can "help fill out the commercial district" place it in an area to stimulate the commercial district like 6th and Reily. That would be an excellent location for the city.