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  #81  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2019, 3:57 AM
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Originally Posted by memph View Post
Not sure what map you're talking about. Toronto definitely does have some segregation, but it's still not as intense as in the US with Latinos and African Americans, even if a lot of that is because Toronto doesn't have many Latinos and blacks or any other ethnic group that's comparatively economically disadvantaged as those are in the US.


Toronto also has something that I'm not sure how many American cities have which is multi-ethnic enclaves.

I'm not talking about ethnic enclaves that overlap at the edges, like how the Sri Lanka/Indian and Chinese enclaves in NE Toronto overlap rather than having a hard boundary.

I'm also not talking about enclaves with multiple related ethnic groups like Jamaicans and Guyanese (similar Caribbean culture), or Egyptians and Pakistanis (same religion) either.

I'm talking about completely unrelated ethnic groups that have significant populations and where the focal point for their ethnic enclave is the same and the boundaries of the large enclave are also very similar. For example, the northern part of Yonge Street is the most Persian part of Toronto, as well as the most Korean.

I'd say most of Toronto is quite mixed and diverse, especially NW Toronto, Central/South/East Scarborough and Mississauga, where most neighbourhoods have at least half a dozen ethnic groups with a strong presence.
Los Angeles has many neighborhoods like this. A couple examples... Koreatown is majority Mexican and Korean. East Hollywood is Hispanic and Armenian, La Crescenta is pretty much evenly split between White, Armenian and Korean. Many other examples too. I'm sure NYC, SF, SD have many too
     
     
  #82  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2019, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Toronto is a lot more ethnically segregated than most us urban areas. Look at the map from a couple posts ago—Indians, Chinese, whites, and Philippinos don’t like to mix, apparently.
This is not my lived experience at all.

My immediate neighbours are (by origin) Indian, Bangladeshi, Filipino, British, Italian, Polish, Barbadian and Brazilian.

Those who are causasian'ish would represent about 40%, with the cumulative other being 60%, and not dominated by any one group.

To be sure there are areas where the largest group are majority, but the totals absence of diversity is pretty rare, probably only the richest areas which do tender to be 'whiter'. Though even there diversity is not completely uncommon, just more marginal.
     
     
  #83  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2019, 11:40 AM
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I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here, but the article has zero to do with diversity. It's talking about geographic segregation by race within a geography.
Its not often I feel the need to quote Crawford in a positive light; but here he is on point.
     
     
  #84  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2019, 6:26 PM
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Anyways, back to the Bay Area.

I do agree that it's a bit easy for Bay Area residents to pat themselves on the back about how they have fewer racial issues in their city than in other cities, when the Bay Area has such a small black population, which is the minority group that is most impacted by those kinds of issues. The same goes for Toronto, Portland, Seattle, Vancouver...

That doesn't change the fact that the Bay Area is very diverse though.

And having a few tiny outlying suburbs that are 70-80% white doesn't mean the Bay Area is unusually segregated, pretty much every city has suburbs like that.

All in all, I'd say the Bay Area has relatively low levels of segregation, even if a lot of that might be because the whites and Asians aren't as prone to segregation as other demographics.
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2019, 7:14 PM
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Originally Posted by memph View Post
Anyways, back to the Bay Area.

I do agree that it's a bit easy for Bay Area residents to pat themselves on the back about how they have fewer racial issues in their city than in other cities, when the Bay Area has such a small black population, which is the minority group that is most impacted by those kinds of issues. The same goes for Toronto, Portland, Seattle, Vancouver...

That doesn't change the fact that the Bay Area is very diverse though.

And having a few tiny outlying suburbs that are 70-80% white doesn't mean the Bay Area is unusually segregated, pretty much every city has suburbs like that.

All in all, I'd say the Bay Area has relatively low levels of segregation, even if a lot of that might be because the whites and Asians aren't as prone to segregation as other demographics.
While poverty/crime is related to segregation no doubt, it's still possible to have those two things separated -- for instance, you could have a segregated wealthier area. I think you can see that in the GTA -- some "segregated" areas, like the Chinese or Jewish suburban areas of York Region are richer than say less segregated areas of NW Toronto or Scarborough that may have many ethnic groups, like Blacks, South Asians, Filipinos, Eastern Europeans etc. So, now you can have voluntary Asian enclaves (segregation isn't necessarily the commonly used term for these ethnoburbs) that exist differently from past segregation. I believe it's like that now with some ethnoburbs in California too, both in the Bay Area and places in metro LA like the San Gabriel Valley. These Asian enclaves are not that poor but still segregated from whites.

Also, I think while Asian-white segregation is low in the US, it's higher in Canada simply because there are more Asians (by proportion not absolute number obviously) -- I bet more Asians in Canada live in a Markham or Richmond-like enclave than in the US. And Black Canadians are less segregated in Toronto than many Asians due to lower proportion of the population and the fact that they came in more than one wave of separate migration(s). For instance, Somali, Jamaican, and many African-Canadian groups don't really have their "own" enclave but are moderately large proportions (even if not the majority) though small again still by US standards, in other areas that also already have groups like South Asians, East Asians, Latin Americans etc. This is unlike the large African-American blocs in many US cities.

So, I'm not sure "Asians are less segregated from whites than blacks area" due to wealth/socio-economic status is a general rule in North America, but dependent on the history/migration/legal history of the group (eg. the Great Migration in the US and redlining, vs. independent immigration of many black Canadians in Canada when laws became more liberal). I'm sure Asians would have been quite segregated in the days when they all lived in enclaves like Chinatown and post 60s immigration hadn't taken off.

The fact that the Bay Area's Black population came through the Great Migration (for the most part, with little international immigration) and its Asian population came through international immigration (even including descendants of international immigrants from generations back) makes it different to compare with Toronto's where both Black and Asian communities came from mostly international immigration drawn to the big city (and few internal migrants).

Last edited by Capsicum; Jun 9, 2019 at 7:41 PM.
     
     
  #86  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by RST500 View Post
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...d-13902101.php


https://haasinstitute.berkeley.edu/r...ay-area-part-2



Cities with the highest proportion of whites in the Bay Area are Belvedere (87.6 percent), Sausalito (84.9 percent), Mill Valley (83.4 percent), Sebastopol (83.2 percent) and Yountville (82.2 percent), and the cities with the highest proportion of Asian Americans relative to their population in their respective county are:

Alameda County (30.0 percent): Piedmont (70.3 percent)

Contra Costa County (16.7 percent): Lafayette (76.7 percent)

Marin County (6.0 percent): Belvedere (87.6 percent)

Napa County (8.0 percent): Yountville (82.2 percent)

San Mateo County (28.2 percent): San Carlos (69.8 percent)

Santa Clara County (36.3 percent): Monte Sereno (76.6 percent)

Solano County (15.6 percent): Rio Vista (76.7 percent)

Sonoma County (4.0 percent): Sebastopol (83.2 percent)"
I’m confused by this description. Are these numbers highest proportion of whites? Or highest proportion of Asians? Because, for certain, San Carlos is not 70% Asian.

Last edited by ocman; Jun 10, 2019 at 1:10 AM.
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 3:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ocman View Post
I’m confused by this description. Are these numbers highest proportion of whites? Or highest proportion of Asians? Because, for certain, San Carlos is not 70% Asian.
Those are for Whites.


Asian:

Alameda County (30.0 percent): Fremont (57.3 percent)

Contra Costa County (16.7 percent): Hercules (48.1 percent)

Marin County (6.0 percent): Novato (7.0 percent)

Napa County (8.0 percent): American Canyon (35.1 percent)

San Mateo County (28.2 percent): Daly City (56.3 percent)

Santa Clara County (36.3 percent): Milpitas (66.5 percent)

Solano County (15.6 percent): Vallejo (23.1 percent)

Sonoma County (4.0 percent): Rohnert Park (5.5 percent)


https://haasinstitute.berkeley.edu/r...ns-in-bay-area
     
     
  #88  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 1:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Over half of Toronto's residents were born outside Canada and probably have of the rest are children of immigrants, so it's a huge aspect of the city and city life, much more than for NYC or Montreal. You can't discuss Toronto's identity without talking about the most dominant demographic part of it. Multiculturalism is the city's most defining characteristic. One visit to Toronto and it's pretty obvious why Toronto's identity is different from Montreal and New York.
I hate to say this for the millionth time, but I do think the poster you're responding to does have a point.

A mixed salad is still just a mixed salad unless it is a unique mix that doesn't resemble any other type of mixed salad that exists out there.
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  #89  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 8:29 AM
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While poverty/crime is related to segregation no doubt, it's still possible to have those two things separated -- for instance, you could have a segregated wealthier area. I think you can see that in the GTA -- some "segregated" areas, like the Chinese or Jewish suburban areas of York Region are richer than say less segregated areas of NW Toronto or Scarborough that may have many ethnic groups, like Blacks, South Asians, Filipinos, Eastern Europeans etc. So, now you can have voluntary Asian enclaves (segregation isn't necessarily the commonly used term for these ethnoburbs) that exist differently from past segregation. I believe it's like that now with some ethnoburbs in California too, both in the Bay Area and places in metro LA like the San Gabriel Valley. These Asian enclaves are not that poor but still segregated from whites.

Also, I think while Asian-white segregation is low in the US, it's higher in Canada simply because there are more Asians (by proportion not absolute number obviously) -- I bet more Asians in Canada live in a Markham or Richmond-like enclave than in the US. And Black Canadians are less segregated in Toronto than many Asians due to lower proportion of the population and the fact that they came in more than one wave of separate migration(s). For instance, Somali, Jamaican, and many African-Canadian groups don't really have their "own" enclave but are moderately large proportions (even if not the majority) though small again still by US standards, in other areas that also already have groups like South Asians, East Asians, Latin Americans etc. This is unlike the large African-American blocs in many US cities.

So, I'm not sure "Asians are less segregated from whites than blacks area" due to wealth/socio-economic status is a general rule in North America, but dependent on the history/migration/legal history of the group (eg. the Great Migration in the US and redlining, vs. independent immigration of many black Canadians in Canada when laws became more liberal). I'm sure Asians would have been quite segregated in the days when they all lived in enclaves like Chinatown and post 60s immigration hadn't taken off.

The fact that the Bay Area's Black population came through the Great Migration (for the most part, with little international immigration) and its Asian population came through international immigration (even including descendants of international immigrants from generations back) makes it different to compare with Toronto's where both Black and Asian communities came from mostly international immigration drawn to the big city (and few internal migrants).
Well, when I said racial issues I mostly meant stuff like discrimination by employers and the justice system. Those are issues that impact blacks much more than Asians. And they are issues that manifest themselves by leading to higher poverty rates among blacks, and the formation of impoverished black ghettos.

That's what I meant by "it's easy for people from the Bay Area to pat themselves on the back" for not having as big/intense black ghettos in their inner cities as Detroit, Chicago, Baltimore, etc and thinking that's because they're more progressive about how they treat their minorities when a lot of it probably just has to do with having fewer blacks.

I think the segregation of blacks in many cities has a lot to do with the fact that they made up most of low income population in the 30s-50s when most cities didn't have that many Latin American or Asian immigrants although redlining didn't help. So the least desirable neighbourhoods ended up being primarily black.
     
     
  #90  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by memph View Post

I think the segregation of blacks in many cities has a lot to do with the fact that they made up most of low income population in the 30s-50s when most cities didn't have that many Latin American or Asian immigrants although redlining didn't help. So the least desirable neighbourhoods ended up being primarily black.
That's exactly what it is. In the USA, we could only tolerate so many blacks. As soon as they starting moving north for jobs, discrimination took off. I would say historically its not unique to blacks, as other groups such as the Irish in the US were seriously hated when their numbers began to increase.

Comparing the racial issues of say Salt Lake City to Birmingham ignores history and vast differences in demographics.
     
     
  #91  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 6:41 PM
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I hate to say this for the millionth time, but I do think the poster you're responding to does have a point.

A mixed salad is still just a mixed salad unless it is a unique mix that doesn't resemble any other type of mixed salad that exists out there.
But diverse cities aren't all the same, but do have (somewhat) different ethnic demographics. And so long as different immigrant groups settle, and are separated from each other and their homeland, they eventually differ.

For instance, Toronto has a large Sri Lankan Tamil population that few other cities have, especially in Scarborough. Also, a large Sikh population in the NW area. So, while other cities have lots of South Asian immigrants, Toronto's is still different from say, New Jersey's, which has more Gujarati's.

And even the "same" immigrant demographics doesn't mean that all the diasporas and descendants are the same. Toronto, Melbourne, Montreal, NYC, New Orleans, Buenos Aires all have either Italian enclaves or a history of Italian immigration but their characters all differ.

Toronto and Vancouver's Chinese demographics are much more Hong-Kong influenced than many city's Chinese enclaves or Chinatowns because of Canada's Commonwealth immigrant connection to HK.

People talk about how, say African American communities are different in different cities, even if many are products of the 1910s- 1970s Great Migration. So Philly's black community is different from the Bay Area's, for instance, and that's not even an immigration wave but an internal migration one during one particular span of history in the 20th century.

So, if you can argue that differences in settlement that happened in the last generation or two can develop a city's culture, surely a different mix of immigrants one city has than another also counts, even if it comes from within a generation or two of change. And even just interactions between immigrant groups or influence from them can change a city's character -- for instance, Jamaican patties are widely seen as a popular street food in Toronto by Torontonians of all races, just like the NYC halal food trucks are seen as popular street food in NYC. Not to say that neither Toronto nor NYC has the other type of food, but some way or another each city made one of its immigrant group's cuisines mainstream in a way that everyone there becomes familiar with.

Last edited by Capsicum; Jun 11, 2019 at 6:52 PM.
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 6:46 PM
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Originally Posted by memph View Post

I think the segregation of blacks in many cities has a lot to do with the fact that they made up most of low income population in the 30s-50s when most cities didn't have that many Latin American or Asian immigrants although redlining didn't help. So the least desirable neighbourhoods ended up being primarily black.
Fair enough. How would you say this applies to Canadian cities then? Black Canadians also have more issues with for instance employment or justice system discrimination than Asian Canadians, but unlike their US counterparts, both Asian and Black Canadian populations were low pre 1960.

Today, I think while Black Canadians in cities like Toronto are not segregated more than Asian Canadians, they are often in more socio-economically less well off neighbourhoods, though not always of course. The difference seems to be in Toronto, Black Canadians in working class areas "share" their neighbourhoods with working class members of other races (including Asians and sometimes whites), while in the US they typically don't as much (again, I wonder if it's about a more explicit legal segregation and redlining in the past).

Another comparison would be other cities (even those outside North America) that didn't have the same black-white dynamic vs. "immigrants" -- are black Londoners, Parisians, or Sydneysiders more segregated than other groups like Asians, Arabs etc. or is the segregation more "white" vs. "non-white", or "immigrant" vs. "non-immigrant" or even just class-based (working class of all races vs. rich of all races)?
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 7:03 PM
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I think the segregation of blacks in many cities has a lot to do with the fact that they made up most of low income population in the 30s-50s when most cities didn't have that many Latin American or Asian immigrants although redlining didn't help. So the least desirable neighbourhoods ended up being primarily black.
Didn't the Bay Area and California in general already have a decent share of Asian and Latin Americans pre-1960s and 70s (I mean not big by today's standards by big by comparison to almost all US cities back then).

For example San Francisco, the city, was 7% Hispanic, 4.9% Chinese and 10% Black in 1960. San Francisco's black population was less than 1% in much of the 20th century before 1950, where it then jumped to 5.6% and then over 10% for much of the late 20th century, but going back down again in the 21st century, and San Francisco had a Chinese population of over 1% for much of its history, reaching double digits in 1980.

But today the Bay Area is less Black than it was in its peak, while the Asian and Hispanic population has not dipped but keeps going up, though all three "races/ethnic groupings" (as the US defines it) grew during the time post 1950s and 1960s.
     
     
  #94  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 7:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post

People talk about how, say African American communities are different in different cities, even if many are products of the 1910s- 1970s Great Migration. So Philly's black community is different from the Bay Area's, for instance, and that's not even an immigration wave but an internal migration one during one particular span of history in the 20th century.
They're different but they're not that different.

No one, whether learned or non-learned, would dispute that African-Americans form a single, identifiable human grouping. With of course some sub-groups within it as is typical of large human groupings spread over a vast geographic area.
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  #95  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 8:29 PM
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But diverse cities aren't all the same, but do have (somewhat) different ethnic demographics. And so long as different immigrant groups settle, and are separated from each other and their homeland, they eventually differ.

For instance, Toronto has a large Sri Lankan Tamil population that few other cities have, especially in Scarborough. Also, a large Sikh population in the NW area. So, while other cities have lots of South Asian immigrants, Toronto's is still different from say, New Jersey's, which has more Gujarati's.

And even the "same" immigrant demographics doesn't mean that all the diasporas and descendants are the same. Toronto, Melbourne, Montreal, NYC, New Orleans, Buenos Aires all have either Italian enclaves or a history of Italian immigration but their characters all differ.

Toronto and Vancouver's Chinese demographics are much more Hong-Kong influenced than many city's Chinese enclaves or Chinatowns because of Canada's Commonwealth immigrant connection to HK.

People talk about how, say African American communities are different in different cities, even if many are products of the 1910s- 1970s Great Migration. So Philly's black community is different from the Bay Area's, for instance, and that's not even an immigration wave but an internal migration one during one particular span of history in the 20th century.

So, if you can argue that differences in settlement that happened in the last generation or two can develop a city's culture, surely a different mix of immigrants one city has than another also counts, even if it comes from within a generation or two of change. And even just interactions between immigrant groups or influence from them can change a city's character -- for instance, Jamaican patties are widely seen as a popular street food in Toronto by Torontonians of all races, just like the NYC halal food trucks are seen as popular street food in NYC. Not to say that neither Toronto nor NYC has the other type of food, but some way or another each city made one of its immigrant group's cuisines mainstream in a way that everyone there becomes familiar with.
I think I've mentioned before that Toronto, contrary to other cities being mentioned here, is very much about "out with the old, in with the new", as opposed to having newcomers add their own spice and flavour to transform what's already been created there over successive decades and centuries.

As a result what you get is more of an EPCOT-style culture that replicates stuff from all over the world (often quite well I might add) but that doesn't necessarily bring much that's truly new and unique to the global table.

(Note that I am not just talking about food here, though yes food is a great metaphor for what we're discussing.)
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  #96  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 8:50 PM
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I think I've mentioned before that Toronto, contrary to other cities being mentioned here, is very much about "out with the old, in with the new", as opposed to having newcomers add their own spice and flavour to transform what's already been created there over successive decades and centuries.

As a result what you get is more of an EPCOT-style culture that replicates stuff from all over the world (often quite well I might add) but that doesn't necessarily bring much that's truly new and unique to the global table.

(Note that I am not just talking about food here, though yes food is a great metaphor for what we're discussing.)
It is really about out with the old though, or simply that "old Toronto" of the late 19th and early 20th century didn't build up as much distinct (from Anglo-Canadian culture or "WASP" culture), rather than having it and then choosing not to embrace it. After all, early 20th century Toronto was not especially showy and drawing attention to itself.

What would 21st century Toronto embracing say 1950s or 1930s Toronto culture look like? Embracing more Britishisms? I actually wouldn't mind if there was something about Toronto embracing aspects of British Canadian culture that existed pre 1960s and 70s, alongside what came after, but it seemed that that generation of British-descent Canadians in Toronto itself didn't choose to keep it alive among the next generation.

I mean, I feel like Montreal and NYC both have lots of early to mid-20th century stuff, which is what people seem to often refer to by having more "culture". After all, when we get to 19th century, 18th century culture, what are we talking about that's recognizably continuous to today. Does NYC embrace it's "New Amsterdam" Dutch culture of the 1600s anymore? Does New Orleans really embrace it's pre-Anglicized culture in ways that are not just tokenistic (and sometimes touristy) embraces of New France, relative to Montreal ? You can even feel like New Orleans' "French" feel almost feels touristy now and tokenistic but surely it harkens to something real in the past, even if dying out now. Toronto isn't the only place that breaks from its past, in this case, the more "British WASP past".

I'm wondering if there's something similar with say Australia. Mostly Anglo culture until the immigration waves made it more diverse. With Australia, you also get a questioning of "what is Australia's culture"? Early 20th century Aussies were expected to be more "British", but now it's embracing its more multicultural identity (though by far not as much as Canada).

Sydney's Opera House was built in the 1970s, not too similar to Toronto's CN Tower, so even Aussie cities' identities are similar in age to the bigger Anglo- Canadian ones.

I bring up African American culture of the late 20th century a bit in this thread to show that something that is "new" can still become a huge part of American culture. 90s hip hop and even much of African American culture this generation is a product of the 80s, 90s and 2000s, with past African American culture (eg. jazz, blues etc.) often embraced symbolically but no longer what contemporary African American culture, especially, music is like.

If African American culture can say what's the product of the last generation is legit a representation of what the cultures of the cities they inhabit are like (eg. the 90s Bay Area), why can't Torontonian culture, of the 80s, 90s, 2000s and 2010s, of the CN-Tower, multiculturalism, Raptors and Drake era?

Why does only stuff from the Art Deco age or Jazz age count but not the eras after it, for a city like Toronto's identity?

I don't think that an EPCOT-style comparison is that fair. Disney theme parks or Las Vegas-like spectacles are specifically constructed to appeal to tourists to show off something fake but constructed to look real or give suspension of disbelief. Jamaican Torontonians and Sri Lankan Torontonians' cultures aren't tourist attractions but genuine things brought over and lived among their local communities, whether or not tourists or hipsters pick it off or show it off. It's no different than what old school Italian Montrealers or Jewish New Yorkers were like, carrying their old country's style with them but planting and growing new roots, just a generation or two later, that's all.
     
     
  #97  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 9:01 PM
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I bring up African American culture of the late 20th century a bit in this thread to show that something that is "new" can still become a huge part of American culture. 90s hip hop and even much of African American culture this generation is a product of the 80s, 90s and 2000s, with past African American culture (eg. jazz, blues etc.) often embraced symbolically but no longer what contemporary African American culture, especially, music is like.

If African American culture can say what's the product of the last generation is legit a representation of what the cultures of the cities they inhabit are like (eg. the 90s Bay Area), why can't Torontonian culture, of the 80s, 90s, 2000s and 2010s, of the CN-Tower, multiculturalism, Raptors and Drake era?

l.
Of course late-20th/early-21st African-American culture like rap/hiphop can become iconic. It arguably already is.

Because it's unique and original. What's so unique and original about Drake and the Raptors?
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  #98  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 9:07 PM
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Drake is a wealthy child star who was somehow able to convince the world that he has enough street cred to be a famous rapper. He was Jimmy on Degrassi before he was Drake, while most of the famous rappers from the 90s were actual products of the streets. If I was from Toronto I would definitely cringe at Drake being the cultural representative of my city. He's so...produced and inauthentic.
     
     
  #99  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 9:08 PM
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It is really about out with the old though, or simply that "old Toronto" of the late 19th and early 20th century didn't build up as much distinct (from Anglo-Canadian culture or "WASP" culture), rather than having it and then choosing not to embrace it. After all, early 20th century Toronto was not especially showy and drawing attention to itself.

What would 21st century Toronto embracing say 1950s or 1930s Toronto culture look like? Embracing more Britishisms? I actually wouldn't mind if there was something about Toronto embracing aspects of British Canadian culture that existed pre 1960s and 70s, alongside what came after, but it seemed that that generation of British-descent Canadians in Toronto itself didn't choose to keep it alive among the next generation.

I mean, I feel like Montreal and NYC both have lots of early to mid-20th century stuff, which is what people seem to often refer to by having more "culture". After all, when we get to 19th century, 18th century culture, what are we talking about that's recognizably continuous to today. Does NYC embrace it's "New Amsterdam" Dutch culture of the 1600s anymore? Does New Orleans really embrace it's pre-Anglicized culture in ways that are not just tokenistic (and sometimes touristy) embraces of New France, relative to Montreal ? You can even feel like New Orleans' "French" feel almost feels touristy now and tokenistic but surely it harkens to something real in the past, even if dying out now. Toronto isn't the only place that breaks from its past, in this case, the more "British WASP past".

I'm wondering if there's something similar with say Australia. Mostly Anglo culture until the immigration waves made it more diverse. With Australia, you also get a questioning of "what is Australia's culture"? Early 20th century Aussies were expected to be more "British", but now it's embracing its more multicultural identity (though by far not as much as Canada).

Sydney's Opera House was built in the 1970s, not too similar to Toronto's CN Tower, so even Aussie cities' identities are similar in age to the bigger Anglo- Canadian ones.

I bring up African American culture of the late 20th century a bit in this thread to show that something that is "new" can still become a huge part of American culture. 90s hip hop and even much of African American culture this generation is a product of the 80s, 90s and 2000s, with past African American culture (eg. jazz, blues etc.) often embraced symbolically but no longer what contemporary African American culture, especially, music is like.

If African American culture can say what's the product of the last generation is legit a representation of what the cultures of the cities they inhabit are like (eg. the 90s Bay Area), why can't Torontonian culture, of the 80s, 90s, 2000s and 2010s, of the CN-Tower, multiculturalism, Raptors and Drake era?

Why does only stuff from the Art Deco age or Jazz age count but not the eras after it, for a city like Toronto's identity?

I don't think that an EPCOT-style comparison is that fair. Disney theme parks or Las Vegas-like spectacles are specifically constructed to appeal to tourists to show off something fake but constructed to look real or give suspension of disbelief. Jamaican Torontonians and Sri Lankan Torontonians' cultures aren't tourist attractions but genuine things brought over and lived among their local communities, whether or not tourists or hipsters pick it off or show it off. It's no different than what old school Italian Montrealers or Jewish New Yorkers were like, carrying their old country's style with them but planting and growing new roots, just a generation or two later, that's all.
I wasn't thinking about going back as far as New Amsterdam, but still... look at stuff that remains iconic that is from the past: Frank Sinatra, Babe Ruth, Miracle on 34th Street, the Apollo Theatre in Harlem, Charles Lindbergh, the strike by news hawkers in the 20s made into a musical called Newsies...

Or how about Édith Piaf, the Tour de France, the hunchback of Notre-Dame, the accordeon, etc.?

Perhaps it's not fair to reference two of the most culturally prolific cites in the world, but still it's not difficult for me to rattle off similarly iconic stuff for places like Boston, Chicago and yes, even Montreal.
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Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I wasn't thinking about going back as far as New Amsterdam, but still... look at stuff that remains iconic that is from the past: Frank Sinatra, Babe Ruth, Miracle on 34th Street, the Apollo Theatre in Harlem, Charles Lindbergh, the strike by news hawkers in the 20s made into a musical called Newsies...

Or how about Édith Piaf, the Tour de France, the hunchback of Notre-Dame, the accordeon, etc.?

Perhaps it's not fair to reference two of the most culturally prolific cites in the world, but still it's not difficult for me to rattle off similarly iconic stuff for places like Boston, Chicago and yes, even Montreal.
Okay, if pressed I think many Torontonians would still find some examples of contributions of Toronto to "world culture" pre-dating the Raptors or Drake, like TIFF, Caribana, Rush, Margaret Atwood, Marshall McLuhan, Jane Jacobs (okay even if some of these figures didn't start out or live their whole life in Toronto).

Toronto does have things that are big locally if not that big outside the city, like the CNE etc. and many of the local festivals, events if again are only one of countless that many cities worldwide have, they're still part of the city's culture.

And on the political front, you have some influence from Toronto globally, such as the movement like the "Slutwalk" and the influence/discussion it brought enough to inspire similar moments for women globally, even in places as far afield as India. You have the University of Toronto's Citizen Lab that has won awards and acclaim from many organizations worldwide for studying and researching censorship and information control, uncovering lots of research of online threats, ranging from Syria's civil war to China.
     
     
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