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  #61  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
C'mon Steely, you know you can't start a Toronto thread here and not expect the usual suspects making the usual talking points ("b-b-but Chinese money laundering!").
I wish the Chinese would launder some money down here. We stopped building big towers here almost completely.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 7:53 PM
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Most of the new buildings in Mississauga are built right up to the sidewalk with street-level retail on the ground floors. They look like this and this and this. I don't really see much difference compared to what built in Toronto. The car-oriented-ness of Mississauga is always exaggerated.

Ultimately you are not going to build many high-rises in a place that is too auto-oriented. It would be too expensive to provide for the all the parking and there is little reason for the home buyer to sacrifice space for proximity if they just going to drive anyways. You want more development in a smaller space, higher-density, then you need to get rid of the parking. And to get rid of parking, you need to get people out of their cars. Mississauga has good enough transit for high-rise apartments, but not good enough for high-rise office buildings. The high-rise construction is entirely residential.

Other cities are not building skyscrapers? They need to start investing in transit. Transit ridership is in decline all over the USA. That promotes lower density, not higher.
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  #63  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 8:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
it's not so much that the knee-jerk toronto discrediting was totally unexpected; i was just hoping for some more responses along the lines of "holy shit, that's quite a remarkable feat for a NA city over the past 2 decades!"

but yeah, we get the usual stupidity instead.......

i guess its reassuring to know that some things never change.
Yeah, I'm blown away by Toronto's growth. Its Chinese or Dubai amount of development(I might be overdoing in there, but its damn close) in NA. Canada overall is extremely impressive to me, Montreal, Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver. A lot for Canadians to be proud of for a country with a relatively small population.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 9:36 PM
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If it’s all about transit and planning, and not global capital flows, why has Montreal suddenly started building new towers? Has their transit or planning regime changed in the past 3 years?

If Houston was a nexus of global safe haven demand, driving real estate prices to 2x what they are today, houston would also be building towers like in those Mississauga pics and not lots of cheaper (but plenty dense) 7 story wooden mid rises.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 9:40 PM
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if it's all about international immigration and population growth, then why has chicago built 50 new 500+ footers over the past 2 decades?

if it's all about transit expansion and planning, then why has chicago built 50 new 500+ footers over the past 2 decades?

if it's all about global capital seeking safe haven, then why has chicago built 50 new 500+ footers over the past 2 decades?



there's more to the story here than the overly simplistic hot takes being offered in this thread.
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  #66  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
if it's all about transit and planning, then why has chicago built 50 new 500+ footers over the past 2 decades?
.
^ Not sure what do you mean? Chicago has transit and planning. That's why it has had such a major skyscraper boom.

But it's still an American city, and in America (as discussed before), a lot our wealth is "locked up" in McMansion-dominated suburbia. So we're just not going to see the kind of highrise construction of a Canadian city unless you're NYC.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 9:49 PM
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^ chicago has transit, but no recent significant transit expansions.

and transit ridership in chicago has fallen over the last 2 decades, so by doady's theory, chicago shouldn't be building any skyscrapers at all, but it is building them, shitloads of them in fact.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 9:55 PM
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Obviously when I say tower I mean skyscraper.

And lets be honest here the CN tower is no beauty made with nice materials, it's an ugly concrete mast.

Toronto needs something like the John Hancock Center.
If I'm going to be honest I couldn't disagree more (to the point where I borderline question your sanity).

Well, about the CN tower being ugly at least. I'm always open to having impressive new skyscrapers.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
and transit ridership in chicago has fallen over the last 2 decades, so by doady's theory, chicago shouldn't be building any skyscrapers at all, but it is building them, shitloads of them in fact.
^ That's largely due to population decline in large swaths of town, particularly a decline in the demographic that has heavily ridden the bus.

That doesn't take away from the fact that access to transit as well as close proximity to large numbers of high-paying jobs has been one of the driving factors behind Chicago's "unlock the suburban wealth and bring it to the core" boom. It's just its own animal--but I'm pretty sure that if it weren't for how transit shaped the region, Chicago's central area highrise boom would never have been so dramatic.

At least for now, foreign capital has not been a significant driver of residential highrise construction in Chicago.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ chicago has transit, but no recent significant transit expansions.

and transit ridership in chicago has fallen over the last 2 decades, so by doady's theory, chicago shouldn't be building any skyscrapers at all, but it is, shitloads of them in fact.
Even if its transit is in decline, Chicago still has a huge transit system with a lot of riders. That still makes it easier to build taller compared to most other cities in North America.

I'm not saying transit ridership is the only factor in high-rise construction, but certainly it is more important factor than Chinese money laundering.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
well, the vast majority of toronto's 500+ footers are in the core, so if the pace continues, toronto is gonna pass chicago on "500+ footers in the core" as well at some point in the not too distant future.

and if you think the 500' threshold is too low, then jump it up to 700'. chicago has 26 700+ footers (all in the core), toronto has 23 700+ footers(all in the core), so again, the gap is getting extremely narrow, and even though chicago is holding strong with its own building boom, toronto is surging.

but yes, chicago still holds a bigger lead in the upper reaches of the height spectrum for now.
In the 500'+ metric, Toronto should pass Chicago in the next few years, unless there's a major market crash, which doesn't appear to be in the offing (there have been significant corrections, notably last year). Including proposals, the number of 500'+ buildings for TO is something like 175, though I believe that figure includes Mississauga (I might be wrong about that).
With regard to skyscrapers, Chicago does have a couple of things Toronto does not, which is better architecture - both of the glorious early-skyscraper-era sort and the present-day - and several supertalls under its belt.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Yeah, I'm blown away by Toronto's growth. Its Chinese or Dubai amount of development(I might be overdoing in there, but its damn close) in NA. Canada overall is extremely impressive to me, Montreal, Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver. A lot for Canadians to be proud of for a country with a relatively small population.
Don't forget about Victoria, Edmonton, Quebec City, Halifax, and st. John's also
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  #73  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 10:25 PM
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That's gotta be a joke/trolling. Jacksonville has the worst downtown in the Americas. It's not growing except in the suburbs.
Jacksonville's skyline, though small, is gorgeous, especially at night. Toronto, though tall, strikes me as bland in a number of ways and too much like a number of places.

And by the way, I'm quite aware I get laughed at and berated for that opinion by the majority. It almost makes it more fun. If Toronto gets a little more colorful, I might change my opinion.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
Even if its transit is in decline, Chicago still has a huge transit system with a lot of riders. That still makes it easier to build taller compared to most other cities in North America.

I'm not saying transit ridership is the only factor in high-rise construction, but certainly it is more important factor than Chinese money laundering.
I've even heard the argument that Toronto's traffic problems and lack of faster transit connections between downtown and large swaths of the outer metro area has contributed to the push toward centralization making more people want to live in or near downtown since it would be so hard to reliably access otherwise. This would make sense given that when it comes to supply and demand, how high the demand gets for something partially depends on the presence of substitutes.

In other words, if there's high demand for transportation but the road access isn't expanded then people can use transit like subway or commuter rail as a substitute (or vice versa). But if there's high demand for access to downtown and there's no significant expansion to transportation supply then people can use a closer domicile as a substitute.
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  #75  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 10:50 PM
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Visual aid for this discussion...This classic lake view will be changing dramatically in the next 2-5 years. The tallest towers are still to come. Also, the skyline stretches further along the lake than this pic captures and it goes on for miles and miles away from the lake, centred on Yonge St. Plus there are impressive and growing suburban clusters in Etobicoke and Mississauga.



Kaleidoscope City by Charles Zhu, on Flickr
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  #76  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
I've even heard the argument that Toronto's traffic problems and lack of faster transit connections between downtown and large swaths of the outer metro area has contributed to the push toward centralization making more people want to live in or near downtown since it would be so hard to reliably access otherwise. This would make sense given that when it comes to supply and demand, how high the demand gets for something partially depends on the presence of substitutes.

In other words, if there's high demand for transportation but the road access isn't expanded then people can use transit like subway or commuter rail as a substitute (or vice versa). But if there's high demand for access to downtown and there's no significant expansion to transportation supply then people can use a closer domicile as a substitute.
High-rises are being built all over Toronto though. In Scarborough, North York, Etobicoke, outside the city too, not just downtown.

I don't have much problem getting to downtown Toronto from Mississauga, especially since the improvements to the Lakeshore line. A downtown Toronto that is better connected by transit would make it an even more attractive and in-demand place, not less. Imagine with Downtown Relief Line and more all day GO train service, how much freedom downtown dwellers would have.

Extra road capacity is different because that would mean extra parking space needed downtown, so of course that would mean less space to build housing. A downtown Toronto full of parking lots would not be an attractive place to live in either.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 11:28 PM
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Mississauga high-rise construction by decade, according to the SSP database:

1960s: 29
1970s: 90
1980s: 58
1990s: 57
2000s: 41
2010s: 36

There were more high-rises built in Mississauga during the 70s alone than the 2000s and 2010s combined. But somehow the recent high-rise construction is mostly only because the city is a "global safe haven demand" for Chinese money launderers.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2019, 12:02 AM
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^ I don’t know how big a factor Chinese money has had or is having on Canada’s housing market, but the price of housing in Toronto and Vancouver particularly is insane.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2019, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
High-rises are being built all over Toronto though. In Scarborough, North York, Etobicoke, outside the city too, not just downtown.

I don't have much problem getting to downtown Toronto from Mississauga, especially since the improvements to the Lakeshore line. A downtown Toronto that is better connected by transit would make it an even more attractive and in-demand place, not less. Imagine with Downtown Relief Line and more all day GO train service, how much freedom downtown dwellers would have.

Extra road capacity is different because that would mean extra parking space needed downtown, so of course that would mean less space to build housing. A downtown Toronto full of parking lots would not be an attractive place to live in either.
You don't need a downtown filled with surface parking to have high automobile usage combined with high numbers of residential highrises. Some places just have lots of parking podiums and garages (Miami?) Besides, having an increase in demand for downtown living induced by transportation challenges doesn't translate to everyone living downtown or the only place with demand being downtown. First because having demand that outstrips supply doesn't mean not having any supply (you can potentially have a huge amount of something but still not enough for everyone who wants it driving up the desire for substitution), and obviously not everyone even works downtown to begin with.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2019, 12:59 AM
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I'd say that the taller Mirvish-Gehry tower (329 m), would probably qualify as a signature tower, now if only it would start construction soon.

The One (309 m) is under construction, and it's a very nice building with high quality materials, so it might be a sort of John Hancock building for Toronto since it's removed from the financial district and the main skyscraper core with it being located up at Yonge and Bloor.
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