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  #81  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 5:00 PM
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Something that is assumed to be constant that is suddenly up for debate is unnerving to most people. Given time to consider an issue I think more people would be open to it.

Language doesn't stay the same no matter what people think. It adapts, changes, gains popularity, loses popularity, or falls into disuse completely. I don't know why English would be any different.

I can barely understand Old English at all. The only reason English is still with us is that it adapted. French should do the same if it wants to survive and stay relevant. Adopt Arabic words, English words, Mandarin words, etc.
Anyway, English will be the main language where you live at the moment until well after your death. So it's all academic.
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  #82  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 5:36 PM
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Be careful not to paint a whole group of people with the same brush. I don't care one iota if Mandarin becomes the dominant language in Canada over time. If that's what people want that's what should happen.
Heh... if I had the power to do that, I'd turn your entire condo building unilingual Mandarin starting tomorrow. (Then, the slightest hint of displeasure on your part with this new state of affairs I would meet with a "shut up you racist".)
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  #83  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 5:44 PM
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Even post-Bill 101, the Quebec government has maintained all the services it's always offered to the anglo community including of course its own schools, colleges and universities, and health and social services too in areas where the numbers are even remotely sufficient.
And yet the quality of some of these services delivered to Anglophones, especially outside Montreal can be quite lacking. My sister and brother-in-law come across this quite often now that their health is deteriorating as they age. l'Estrie is so heavily francophone now that it can be difficult to find a health care provider able to offer service beyond fractured English (even more fractured than my sister's French is).

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One thing the Quebec government has done though is prevented the anglo minority from compelling or forcing francophones to use English in certain circumstances such as the workplace. So if you owned a factory or a mill in a town where most everyone was francophone, you no longer could force everyone to speak English on the shop floor. Which was sometimes the case prior to the 1970s.
And at the same time the Quebec government will send inspectors into the few remaining majority Anglophone villages with rulers to measure the size of lettering on shop signs, and will demand that minutes from municipal meetings be recorded in French even though the community itself is English. I am not aware of such requirements in English Canada.

Also, in provinces like NB and Ontario, there is lots of money to throw at French language festivals in majority francophone communities and Acadians are exhorted to march in the street on le Quinze Aout to rejoice in their heritage. Is there anything similar in Quebec to encourage celebration of Anglophone culture in the townships????

I respect your opinions Acajack, and I really don't want to get into a dust-up with you, but things are not as clear cut as you may like to believe..........
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  #84  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Also, in provinces like NB and Ontario, there is lots of money to throw at French language festivals in majority francophone communities and Acadians are exhorted to march in the street on le Quinze Aout to rejoice in their heritage. Is there anything similar in Quebec to encourage celebration of Anglophone culture in the townships????
They always do something reasonably big on Moving Day every year. Your sister should be able to confirm.
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  #85  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 6:04 PM
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They always do something reasonably big on Moving Day every year. Your sister should be able to confirm.
Interesting..... Such as????

If it's Moving Day, perhaps it's a festive celebration at the QC/ON border to wish the moving vans well on their trek westward.

Just kidding lio
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  #86  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 6:15 PM
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Interesting..... Such as????

If it's Moving Day, perhaps it's a festive celebration at the QC/ON border to wish the moving vans well on their trek westward.

Just kidding lio
There are certainly parades and fireworks every moving day, though not typically on the QC/ON border.

Scratch that... since Parliament Hill is technically on the QC/ON border.

Last edited by Zeej; Sep 17, 2018 at 6:35 PM.
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  #87  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 6:43 PM
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Yes, I know. The thinly-veiled racism directed at francophone Québécois in this thread could also qualify for The Ugly Canada thread. Thanks for drawing our attention to that.
Francophone Quebeckers are a "race" now? Must have missed that memo.
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  #88  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 7:38 PM
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Francophone Quebeckers are a "race" now? Must have missed that memo.
Just going along with the zeitgeist. The r-word, just like the future, ain't what it used to be.
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  #89  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 7:44 PM
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Just going along with the zeitgeist. The r-word, just like the future, ain't what it used to be.
It's fairly common to hear people in BC say they are not racist even though they don't like mainland Chinese. They say they are okay with Hong Kongers or sometimes Taiwanese. China's official stance is there's no difference between them and the islanders (particularly now that HK has been reabsorbed into the motherland), and it seems odd to say that these groups are separate races for any common definition of that term.

Is it wrong to say that somebody who hates all mainland Chinese for being mainland Chinese is racist? Is this type of attitude OK because it is different from, say, hating someone only because they have dark skin?
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  #90  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 7:51 PM
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I'd agree, but the stereotype that Maritimers are super friendly and welcoming is also a bit overblown. I say that as a born and (partly) raised Maritimer who's lived in all three provinces and still has family and friends in all three.

People down east are quite friendly on a casual level, but it's not as easy to make friends as you might think as social networks tend to be well established due to a lot of families being there for a long time. As with any place it does not mean it's impossible but you usually need an "in" (ie someone) in order to make your place.

They're also in my experience more likely to make off-colour comments than people west of the Ottawa River (but perhaps not moreso than in Quebec), all of which is likely related to people having mostly lived for so long just "among their own kind", for lack of a better term.
Let's suppose this is all 100% undeniably correct.

The real problem is the regional moralizing that some Canadians engage in. Instead of trying to understand other regions they tend to take a paternalistic view based on prejudice. Worse than that it is common to believe that if we can demonstrate that somebody is less enlightened their opinion is invalid. It's a modern form of the colonial attitude that was so prevalent in the 19th century, the attitude toward indigenous people that we are supposedly eager to move beyond today. Canadians still have not fully generalized this I guess.

You are right that language is a barrier but there are multiple barriers. The fact that somebody in Calgary or Toronto could theoretically easily keep abreast of issues in Atlantic Canada and come to understand the region with an open mind does not mean that that is the most common scenario. It's not even important that people know much about other regions. It's the strong opinions combined with ignorance (I skimmed some Globe and Mail articles and now I know better than people in Quebec what their immigration policy should be) that are problematic.
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  #91  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 8:02 PM
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It's fairly common to hear people in BC say they are not racist even though they don't like mainland Chinese. They say they are okay with Hong Kongers or sometimes Taiwanese. China's official stance is there's no difference between them and the islanders (particularly now that HK has been reabsorbed into the motherland), and it seems odd to say that these groups are separate races for any common definition of that term.

Is it wrong to say that somebody who hates all mainland Chinese for being mainland Chinese is racist? Is this type of attitude OK because it is different from, say, hating someone only because they have dark skin?
For better or for worse, the word "racism" has become conflated with "prejudice" in our times. Basically the hate or at least pre-judging of people who are different from you in some way.

When I was in university a Franco-Ontarian of French Canadian origin told me that Québécois of French Canadian origin had been "racist" against him.
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  #92  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 9:31 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Francophone Quebeckers are a "race" now? Must have missed that memo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Just going along with the zeitgeist. The r-word, just like the future, ain't what it used to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
It's fairly common to hear people in BC say they are not racist even though they don't like mainland Chinese. They say they are okay with Hong Kongers or sometimes Taiwanese. China's official stance is there's no difference between them and the islanders (particularly now that HK has been reabsorbed into the motherland), and it seems odd to say that these groups are separate races for any common definition of that term.
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
For better or for worse, the word "racism" has become conflated with "prejudice" in our times. Basically the hate or at least pre-judging of people who are different from you in some way.

When I was in university a Franco-Ontarian of French Canadian origin told me that Québécois of French Canadian origin had been "racist" against him.
Well, regarding the use of the word "race", it's not like it was that consistently used all the time either all that long ago (in many cases, conflated with nation, culture, tribe etc.).

Churchill said things like "the American race" when it came to describing Americans, in contrast to other nations, like the Brits etc. yet "American" is hardly what we'd think of as a "race" biologically.

Americans treat "Latino/Hispanic" pretty much in much contemporary discourse as a "race", when it isn't (Latin Americans are made up of all sorts of races, ancestry-wise).

Anti-religious prejudice is sometimes conflated with "racism" which can make sense for "ethnic religions" where someone can be born into a community but be non-practicing (eg. Jews, Sikhs), but still be the targets of discrimination based on ancestry/appearance alone. However, it works less well for religions that are heavily confessional and whose belonging is specifically predicated on not just being born into it or inheriting a community (eg. many branches of Protestantism where you must have chosen to belong and avow the beliefs personally, not just go along with what your parents are) or less so when the religion is associated with many races (eg. calling anti-Catholic discrimination racism isn't common). With Muslims, sometimes people conflate anti-religious discrimination with racial discrimination though Muslims like Christians are of a variety of races, but that can be because many places in the world that are majority Muslim also tend to be of certain races, though not always what people think of as Middle Eastern (eg. sub-Saharan Africa, SE Asia).
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  #93  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 9:39 PM
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When I attended high school in Toronto, some people would haphazardly mention something like Hindus, Muslims etc. being a "race" etc., like "there's 3 guys in the class, one guy's white, another guy's Chinese, the other guy's Muslim" and get corrected sometimes with something like "hey, being Muslim's got nothing to do with race... there's lots of white Muslims, Chinese Muslims etc.".
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  #94  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2018, 12:14 AM
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The Gazette report had him admitting that he didn't actually know much about immigration (or Canadian citizenship). I would until now have given Legault credit for more smarts than Ford. I still think it's advantage Legault, but it says something that the comparison could be made.
There is a reason legault was not a terribly successful politician in the past despite his long tenure. I think some of those short comings are becoming apparent recently. I don't think it will effect the CAQ too negatively however. As I said earlier, if anything I think CAQ are leaning too heavily on immigration as a policy pillar lately.
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  #95  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2018, 4:25 AM
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It's fairly common to hear people in BC say they are not racist even though they don't like mainland Chinese. They say they are okay with Hong Kongers or sometimes Taiwanese. China's official stance is there's no difference between them and the islanders (particularly now that HK has been reabsorbed into the motherland), and it seems odd to say that these groups are separate races for any common definition of that term.

Is it wrong to say that somebody who hates all mainland Chinese for being mainland Chinese is racist? Is this type of attitude OK because it is different from, say, hating someone only because they have dark skin?
Chinese is a not, under any definition, a race so being biased against Chinese does not make you racist. As far as Mainlanders as opposed to Taiwanese and HK, there is definitely an anti-Mainlander sentiment amongst Vancouverites in general and very much so amongst ex Hong Kongers and Taiwanese


Mainlanders are often seen as been too aggressive, exclusionary, rude, abrasive, narcissistic, and not wanting to assimilate into mainstream society be it economically, culturally, or socially. Mainlanders are detested in Hong Kong.
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  #96  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2018, 4:34 AM
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Mainlanders are often seen as been too aggressive, exclusionary, rude, abrasive, narcissistic, and not wanting to assimilate into mainstream society be it economically, culturally, or socially. Mainlanders are detested in Hong Kong.
Yet I have met many mainland Chinese who are perfectly nice.

Whether or not we call it racism is irrelevant. There is nothing a mainland Chinese person can do to change where they were born, and it isn't fair to hold them accountable for other people who happen to be from the same place. It's even worse if you hold them accountable for exaggerated or fabricated stories or anachronisms. Whether this is called racism or not it is in poor taste.

It's no different for people from Quebec or French Canadians, people who some Canadians like to hate on (even though we are supposedly in an ultra-tolerant and politically correct society). As we've seen here, some people start frothing at the mouth the instant Quebec is mentioned. The only reason why these Quebec political stories go "viral" is because they are negative and feed into that prejudice. Very few Canadians outside of Quebec have a sincere interest in Quebec politics.
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  #97  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2018, 5:52 AM
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Very few Canadians outside of Quebec have a sincere interest in Quebec politics.
And people aren't fooling anyone. You can tell right away when someone only gets their news from anglo media like G&M. If something isn't covered in anglo media it might as well not exist.

The thing is, it seems that G&M and similar think the most interesting thing about quebec politics is the angle that casts it in negative lights.

This thread is proof positive. Like acajack said - absolutely zero mention on this forum anywhere about legault's gaff - but extensive coverage of a tiny portion of his immigration policy ? And the singular response to it is "pandering to québécois xenophobes" and "québécois are racist".
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  #98  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2018, 4:52 PM
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Chinese is a not, under any definition, a race so being biased against Chinese does not make you racist. As far as Mainlanders as opposed to Taiwanese and HK, there is definitely an anti-Mainlander sentiment amongst Vancouverites in general and very much so amongst ex Hong Kongers and Taiwanese


Mainlanders are often seen as been too aggressive, exclusionary, rude, abrasive, narcissistic, and not wanting to assimilate into mainstream society be it economically, culturally, or socially. Mainlanders are detested in Hong Kong.
When I was growing up in the early 90s it was the Hong Kongers (derisively called "Hongers") who were detested for the behaviours you described as well as blamed for building Monster Houses and jacking up housing prices. Not "integrating" was a common complaint as well. And now? The same HK immigrants are doing the same to newcomers after a couple of decades. Oh the irony.

Can't we just all get along now and hate on the next newest wave of newcomers?
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  #99  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2018, 5:14 PM
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And people aren't fooling anyone. You can tell right away when someone only gets their news from anglo media like G&M. If something isn't covered in anglo media it might as well not exist.

The thing is, it seems that G&M and similar think the most interesting thing about quebec politics is the angle that casts it in negative lights.

This thread is proof positive. Like acajack said - absolutely zero mention on this forum anywhere about legault's gaff - but extensive coverage of a tiny portion of his immigration policy ? And the singular response to it is "pandering to québécois xenophobes" and "québécois are racist".
At the risk of feeding the stereotype, what "gaff"?
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  #100  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2018, 5:28 PM
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Very few Canadians outside of Quebec have a sincere interest in Quebec politics.
Which is perfectly normal, of course. And we're returning the favor, too.

I have zero interest in, say, Nova Scotia politics. (On a related note, I also don't barge in Nova Scotia Politics Discussion Threads to call them all idiots for voting for this guy instead of that guy.)
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