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  #41  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 4:50 PM
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Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc View Post
This is what I'm talking about. This block is three blocks from the state government complex, four from the governor's mansion, and about ten from the heart of Fayetteville Street, the main drag through downtown Raleigh. This kind of neighborhood is what draws people to Southern cities, and any neighborhood that looks like this in any growing Southern city, be it Raleigh, Durham, Columbia, Greenville, Charlotte, Atlanta, Asheville, or most anywhere else, is going to a very hot commodity.
This doesn't look urban, it's just old, and I don't think it's what attracts people to Raleigh.

People (from the north) like Raleigh because it's cheap, new, lush and lots of good jobs. They love places like Cary and Apex. I've never heard anyone claim they want to move to Raleigh because there are old homes (of which there are barely any). Practically the entire metro looks like it was built yesterday. The tiny slivers that look like southern versions of Cleveland or Buffalo aren't the appeal.
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 4:59 PM
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Cary is basically the western suburb of Raleigh and looks like Fairfax, VA.

Downtown apex looks nice. Beats a lot of the suburban town centers on Long Island.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7307...!7i8276!8i4138

nice area around NC state:

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7875...7i16384!8i8192

Chapel Hill, also a nice area (but not Brooklyn, surely):

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.9113...7i16384!8i8192

btw, does Duke seem to lack a good collegiate downtown ? I can't find anything close to campus.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 5:10 PM
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This doesn't look urban, it's just old, and I don't think it's what attracts people to Raleigh.
As I said, it's not rowhouses or Central Park West, but it's historic, and built on historic development patterns of grids, sidewalks, and shade trees, close enough to things you'd want to walk to.

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People (from the north) like Raleigh because it's cheap, new, lush and lots of good jobs. They love places like Cary and Apex. I've never heard anyone claim they want to move to Raleigh because there are old homes (of which there are barely any). Practically the entire metro looks like it was built yesterday. The tiny slivers that look like southern versions of Cleveland or Buffalo aren't the appeal.
Speaking as a Southerner who lives in a city where people are moving in droves, all of them wanting that kind of neighborhood, I can tell you from personal, on-the-ground experience, that that sort of neighborhood is exactly what enormous numbers of people want. When they can't find it at an affordable price, that's when they settle for something with vinyl siding on the cul-de-sac.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc View Post
As I said, it's not rowhouses or Central Park West, but it's historic, and built on historic development patterns of grids, sidewalks, and shade trees, close enough to things you'd want to walk to.
If your premise were correct, how does this make any sense in the context of Raleigh?

People are leaving places like Cleveland and Buffalo for places like Raleigh and Charlotte. The former are like 70% vaguely alike your linked pic. The latter are like 98% unlike your linked pic. So why would they be moving?
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Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc View Post
Speaking as a Southerner who lives in a city where people are moving in droves, all of them wanting that kind of neighborhood, I can tell you from personal, on-the-ground experience, that that sort of neighborhood is exactly what enormous numbers of people want.
From a Northerner perspective, that sounds crazy. Why would someone move to one of the newest, sprawliest metros on the planet if they valued such things? Why aren't Schenectady and Altoona booming? They have that stuff in spades. It's like saying you're moving to the Amazon because you value cold winters.
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 5:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Fun fact: My nephew is going to attend NC State this fall. I've asked him to scope out the Subway across from the bell tower and tell me if they still have the seafood and crab sub there. That's the last place I was ever able to find it.

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btw, does Duke seem to lack a good collegiate downtown ? I can't find anything close to campus.
9th Street. It's north of the central campus, across the freeway. Just for fun, look at an aerial view of the area just to the west of 9th Street to see examples of the sort of infill that is taking over former patches of sprawl across North Carolina cities. Particularly, check out this block between Rutherford Street and 15th Street.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 5:20 PM
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Facts are facts. I can't explain why people in Seattle live less dense than those in Phoenix. At least they feel comfortable knowing they're living in a rare rain forest environment.
I can. It's because one city is built in an environment that should not support a major population center. There's no peripheral development in the metro because it's a desert and inhospitable for human living without extensive irrigation and engineering. Phoenix has 'dense' sprawl and the 'city' is basically indistinguishable from the suburbs. Congrats?
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 5:25 PM
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If your premise were correct, how does this make any sense in the context of Raleigh?
If your premise were correct, neighborhoods like that would still be abandoned, the way they were in the 80's. They're not. They're the hottest properties in town and -- again -- that comes from someone who lives here and knows the real estate market here.

Quote:
People are leaving places like Cleveland and Buffalo for places like Raleigh and Charlotte. The former are like 70% vaguely alike your linked pic. The latter are like 98% unlike your linked pic. So why would they be moving?
I had assumed they moved because the weather and the job market are better here. Lord knows I hear enough of them tell me so.

Quote:
From a Northerner perspective, that sounds crazy. Why would someone move to one of the newest, sprawliest metros on the planet if they valued such things? Why aren't Schenectady and Altoona booming? They have that stuff in spades. It's like saying you're moving to the Amazon because you value cold winters.
It can sound however it likes, but I can tell you as someone who lives here, in a city where locals like me are an endangered species, that streetcar suburbs on gridded streets, with lots of trees, and neighborhood retail, are far and away the neighborhoods where people want to be. People moving to my own city, for example, will claw each other in the eyes for the chance to live in Montford or West Asheville, and will only settle for The Townes at Olde Oake Harbour Mountaine Pointe Beache (Phase II) when they can't get what they want.
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"To sustain the life of a large, modern city in this cloying, clinging heat is an amazing achievement. It is no wonder that the white men and women in Greenville walk with a slow, dragging pride, as if they had taken up a challenge and intended to defy it without end." -- Rebecca West for The New Yorker, 1947
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 5:33 PM
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If your premise were correct, neighborhoods like that would still be abandoned, the way they were in the 80's. They're not. They're the hottest properties in town and -- again -- that comes from someone who lives here and knows the real estate market here.
Raleigh is a hot market, so why would nice homes a few blocks from the state capital be abandoned? The equivalents aren't even abandoned in depressed state capitals like Lansing. And I'm highly skeptical that same block was abandoned in the 80's.

Why would you assume people buy such homes due to "urbanity" when obviously they're attractive and close to work?
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 5:34 PM
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"researching" the area, it now appears to me that Raleigh-Durham has a lot more going for it than I thought.

Some of the southern downtowns have a lot of charm to build on/add infill to, and the strip centers, since they're newer, are a bit more retrofitable than what you see in places like Ohio and Missouri . this combined with a relatively enlightened incoming transplant population that values urban living more than, say people moving to Phoenix and Houston.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 5:42 PM
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Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc View Post
This is what I'm talking about. This block is three blocks from the state government complex, four from the governor's mansion, and about ten from the heart of Fayetteville Street, the main drag through downtown Raleigh. This kind of neighborhood is what draws people to Southern cities, and any neighborhood that looks like this in any growing Southern city, be it Raleigh, Durham, Columbia, Greenville, Charlotte, Atlanta, Asheville, or most anywhere else, is going to a very hot commodity. It may not be rowhouses or looming apartment towers, but it's a grid, it has sidewalks to walk on, somewhere to walk to, and lots of historic quirks and mature trees to look at while you're walking. As such, it's an extremely limited quantity, in high demand. Hence, high demand, and hence, people want this, can't get it, and settle for something that's a doable drive into town instead.

The problem here is that Southern cities are catching up to Northern cities in the sense that anywhere you'd want to live is nowhere you could afford to live.
Eventually people are going to discover that the Midwest has tons of relatively affordable neighborhoods like this, and not all of it is Rust Belt. Streetcar suburbia is the Midwest's default urban form. Personally I think streetcar suburbia is an ideal urban form. It gives people what they like about suburbia - lawns, gardens and greenery; and also what they like about urbanity - walkable, bikeable neighborhoods, good transit, nearby retail and short commutes. If you plop down enough apartment buildings into it you can get it up 20,000 to 30,000 ppsm without changing its basic character. At that density it can support enough retail that everybody has a decent retail node within a few blocks of where they live.
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Raleigh is a hot market, so why would nice homes a few blocks from the state capital be abandoned? The equivalents aren't even abandoned in depressed state capitals like Lansing. And I'm highly skeptical that same block was abandoned in the 80's.
For reference, this neighborhood in Asheville, a streetcar suburb -- here's a representative picture -- was in such a state in the 1980's that most every house was for rent, had been chopped up into multiple apartments, or was being used as a whorehouse, flop house, or crack house. Houses were regularly burned down for insurance money. Everyone everywhere fled for the suburbs in the 1970's and 1980's, even in desirable cities like mine. This neighborhood for example, was considered a dangerous, no-go zone well into the 90's, and this one was a place you absolutely did not go after dark until about 2010. However, these are the most desirable neighborhoods in town today, so you can be as skeptical as you please, but I can assure you that the central cities of the South were ghost towns by the 1980's. That's why downtown Raleigh had to go through the ordeal of trying to revive its abandoned downtown with the Fayetteville Street Mall, then spend millions of dollars turning Fayetteville Street back into a traffic-carrying thoroughfare decades later when the mall proved to be an abject failure. Back in the 80's, central Raleigh was an ailing place, just like central Asheville, Charlotte, and nearly every other central city. Let me remind you that I am basing my observations on what I have seen living here my entire life, and I am basing them upon what people who have moved here have told me. I am also basing them upon what my husband and I have found when we have looked for houses to buy.

Quote:
Why would you assume people buy such homes due to "urbanity" when obviously they're attractive and close to work?
Because "urbanity" and "attractive and close to work" are pretty much the same thing.

Here's the thing. Across the South, people are flooding into old mill villages, streetcar suburbs, and converted factories. In Greenville, SC, where my husband and I have considered moving, we see it in every neighborhood in town. Formerly deadly slums there and in places like Charlotte and Raleigh are all the rage now, to the point that these cities are running out of houses to renovate. Even in Charlotte, a city that has obliterated its history with near surgical precision, people want to be in what walkable in-town neighborhoods, restored factories, and mill villages remain there -- and they definitely also want to be in all the new housing that Charlotte is cramming into its core. People want to be in town first -- and yet again, I know this from growing up here, talking to people who have moved here, and from looking for houses myself.
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Last edited by hauntedheadnc; Jul 5, 2019 at 7:02 PM.
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Chef View Post
Eventually people are going to discover that the Midwest has tons of relatively affordable neighborhoods like this, and not all of it is Rust Belt. Streetcar suburbia is the Midwest's default urban form. Personally I think streetcar suburbia is an ideal urban form. It gives people what they like about suburbia - lawns, gardens and greenery; and also what they like about urbanity - walkable, bikeable neighborhoods, good transit, nearby retail and short commutes. If you plop down enough apartment buildings into it you can get it up 20,000 to 30,000 ppsm without changing its basic character. At that density it can support enough retail that everybody has a decent retail node within a few blocks of where they live.
I was actually thinking about that. The places in Southern cities where people really want to be, like the Grant Park neighborhood of Atlanta, are little chunks of what goes on for miles in Minneapolis.

(At least, from what I can see of it on Google Maps.)
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  #53  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 6:53 PM
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All those just look like run-of-the-mill suburbs. If that's what's considered a hot commodity in the south, things must be pretty grim farther out from the city.
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 6:59 PM
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All those just look like run-of-the-mill suburbs. If that's what's considered a hot commodity in the south, things must be pretty grim farther out from the city.
Eat your heart out, Levittown.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 8:44 PM
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It's almost like WSJ has some sort of political agenda or something

excerpt from article that showed the author had zero clue

"Phoenix last year had a growth rate of 1.5%. The population of Buckeye, Ariz., 30 miles away, expanded by 8.5% last year to 74,000 people.)

Phoenix population 2017: 1,626,000
Phoenix population 2018: 1,650,390 (1.5% increase/24,390 pop increase )

Buckeye population 2017: 68,453
Buckeye population 2018: 74,271 (8.5% increase/5,818 pop increase)

comparing population growth via percentages is hilarious and only something a journalist who has zero clue what he is talking about would do. I know there is more to article, but its hard to take anything the author says seriously when he makes a comparison in demographics through percentage growth.

Yes, the suburbs are growing and will continue to do so, but so are the cities and the expensive housing costs are a testament to that. Comparing a single/couple years of demographics changes into an argument for a long-term trend is horrible analysis.

I knew that when the census data came out for 2018 and it showed population loss in several of the big metros (NYC, LA, and Chicago) that right-wing journalists/newspapers were going to be coming out in hordes writing articles with the theme suburbs>cities or Americans leaving cities en masse.
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 9:09 PM
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I can't believe the back-to-the-city trend is ending, accelerating, peaking, dropping, slowing, booming, cratering, strengthening, over, and just getting started
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 9:17 PM
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I can't believe the back-to-the-city trend is ending, accelerating, peaking, dropping, slowing, booming, cratering, strengthening, over, and just getting started
it's almost as if our major metropolitan areas are in a constant state of flux of people coming and going and moving around within them.

who would've guessed it?
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"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

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  #58  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 9:34 PM
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The wsj was a huge cheerleader for the McMansion trend back in the day. I remember an exuberant interview around 2005 with some hovnanian designer, talking about all the great rooms and ‘features’ they were adding

Now these houses are losing value like a stone

It’s amazing how an ostensibly capitalist organ can get capitalism so wrong. Particularly the notion that the market is always right.

Thus I wouldn’t put too much stock in what they say
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  #59  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
American Suburbs Swell Again as a New Generation Escapes the City
Rising urban housing costs have sped an exodus of residents, causing strains in ‘Millennial Mayberry’

By Valerie Bauerlein | The Wall Street Journal
July 1, 2019


https://www.wsj.com/articles/america...ty-11561992889
I mean, Ill be honest, I love the city but when I have kids Im heading out to the suburbs and I wont even think twice about it.

I am a "millennial"
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2019, 10:28 PM
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I mean, Ill be honest, I love the city and I have kids so I'm staying put in the city and I wont even think twice about it.

I am a "gen X'er"
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"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
     
     
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