Urban vs Suburban - 2 styles enter, one style leaves!

[Wentworth]

Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian

When did Mount Royal become the mean?
I think we can all agree that there's few if any seniors in Mount Royal having to subside on Alpo because they can't afford their property taxes.

However, there are plenty of seniors and others, living in numerous areas where property values have increased drastically.


A smarter way of doing property taxes would be taking in consideration when a property was purchased and what it is worth now. So if Grandma bought her place for $5000k back in the day she gets a bit of a break.

This wouldn't apply to just bed shitters though. Plenty of folks have bought in areas such as Bridgeland, Inglewood and Ramsay in the 7+ years ago, before the boom and before innercity was desirable, who have some their property increase in value significantly.

Alberta has a property tax assistance program for seniors. (See below.) Other jurisdictions have various tax deferral programs for seniors. In some cases, taxes can be deferred until a property is sold.

Alberta program

Taxation based solely on income is not necessarily fair either. A young family with a mortgage, children, and residual student loan debt might have difficulty making ends meet on a family income of $100,000. At the same time, there are many very wealthy people who manage to declare very little income.

[Ramsayfarian]

Originally Posted by Wentworth

Alberta has a property tax assistance program for seniors. (See below.) Other jurisdictions have various tax deferral programs for seniors. In some cases, taxes can be deferred until a property is sold.

Alberta program

Taxation based solely on income is not necessarily fair either. A young family with a mortgage, children, and residual student loan debt might have difficulty making ends meet on a family income of $100,000. At the same time, there are many very wealthy people who manage to declare very little income.

I thought there was something in place. Thanks for the link.
Back when you could do family trusts I had co-workers billing out at $100 per hour and could qualify for subsidized health care. They didn't claim it, but they could have if they wanted to.

[Ramsayfarian]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Hey, at least I can admit it, unlike most people here who can't ever see past their own personal worldview of everything and think that that is how the world actually works.

Or who can't see parallels or analogies, ever.

But hey, feel free to pick apart any and all posts. Just remember that contrary to what you and most of the Internet believe, a different opinion than your own != incorrect. Sometimes we can learn from others.

I'm always willing to listen to the other side and if they make sense, I have no problem changing my view.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by fusili

I teleport.

[93JC]

Originally Posted by freeweed

how can I "obviously not have been there"?

...

Lower Mount Royal, incidentally, is close to 90% apartment/condos (according to something I dug up on the City's website) - these are not exactly seniors being squeezed out of their ancestral mansions here.

Sorry, I should have clarified that you obviously haven't been there except recently. When did you move to Calgary? I'm guessing no more than 10-15 years.

There was a time when Lower Mount Royal was filled with little houses. (This one was my great-great-aunt's, one of the few left standing.)

[suburb]

Originally Posted by fusili

Not quite- no grocery stores, no liquor stores, no ski shops (that sell actual boards). Those, to me, are necessities.

If you keep changing your question, it doesn't show you as superior - rather more of a dork. Your question was, "OK, I challenge you to find anywhere to as many shops within a 5 minute walk that I have anywhere in the city" and I responded, any house within 5 minutes of Chinook Centre. If you're talking about specifics, the fact I'm extremely close to two golf courses, a T&T chinese supermarket and a recreation centre with ice rinks would also be difficult to compete with.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by suburb

If you keep changing your question, it doesn't show you as superior - rather more of a dork. Your question was, "OK, I challenge you to find anywhere to as many shops within a 5 minute walk that I have anywhere in the city" and I responded, any house within 5 minutes of Chinook Centre. If you're talking about specifics, the fact I'm extremely close to two golf courses, a T&T chinese supermarket and a recreation centre with ice rinks would also be difficult to compete with.

I was making the point that the number, diversity and density of amenities in a high-density, mixed use community is extremely difficult to get anywhere in the suburbs. The density and land use pattern does not create a market to support it in the suburbs. The residential density in the downtown means that numerous different types of amenities can be supported because the captured market is larger. Sure, there are places in the suburbs that have some amenities near by, but never close to the amount of them and the different types of them found in the downtown. Someone living close to Chinook has a lot of retail stores and restaurants to choose from, but no grocery stores or liquor stores.

The point is that a dense, mixed-use community, by its very definition, will have more amenities in walking distance than other communities. That is the benefit of the community. Does it have golf courses close? Of course not, as that would eliminate numerous other amenities because of the

As to the bolded part, I don't see how I am being a dork. I was simply making the point that if you want to live close to amenities, move to the centre of the city. The suburbs will never, never come even close to the level of amenity the centre city does. And you make the point you live close to a Chinese Supermarket and a Golf Course: do you ever walk to those places?

[suburb]

It is clear that it is possible to have the mix of services required either in the core or in the areas outside of the inner city.

One MAJOR point that most have ignored is that over 80% of Calgary's employment is outside of downtown and that it makes most sense to live close to where you need to be. It would be counter-intuitive to purposefully live in the core paying twice the price per sf of living space, only to have to commute outside of DT every day. I've highlighted before that a mere 150,000 people work in downtown Calgary. Why the heck would all of those folks working at the airport, the industrial parks, the schools, the universities, the hospitals and medical clinics, choose a life of imposed poverty to try and eek out an expensive DT living instead of closer to where they need to be?

[freeweed]

As an Xmas counter-point, I'll point out that work is just one of the things it's important to live close to.

This isn't 1850; we have technology to help us get to things that aren't on the next street corner.

[stephenm]

Suburb.

I don't base my living decisions on the location of my employer. It's based on where I want to live.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by stephenm

Suburb.

I don't base my living decisions on the location of my employer. It's based on where I want to live.

I've been reading everyones post and I wanted to chime in with my two cents.

This is the best way (the quote above) to describe the issue of inner city versus suburban. People's situation (life, money) will dictate where they live. Someone who might be single may be inclined to live in an inner city rental, but after getting married buy a house to raise a family.

In my situation, I'm single and I live in the inner city in a condo. But the person I'm seeing - we've talked about the day we move in together and we want to stay inner city. We've also talked about kids and we are perfectly prepared to purchase a larger condo (2 or even 3 bedroom) to have 1 child and raise them as an urbanite. Here in Calgary - may be. Somewhere else, potentially. I come from Halifax, which has a nice sized walkable downtown and a lot of new condo development around it. So we might move back and live there. But I could also see staying in Calgary for a number of years and getting the right condo in the Betline.

The difficulty with the suburb versus inner city argument is that we've been raised with this idea that you can't raise a quality family except in a single detached dwelling - this is my theory anyway. That simply isn't true. I know many families that are growing up in high density and their children do just as well in education and social development as someone in the burbs, sometimes I'd argue even better. When I look at home; there are lots of inner city schools and parks around where I'd want to live in halifax (I admit I don't know the Beltine very well; but I'm sure I could find the schools when the time comes).

Part of getting past this issue is realizing that a family can be raised anywhere. The next step is then taking away the imbalance between homes in the inner city and the suburban areas. That is the way more difficult step and honestly I don't know how you do it.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by fusili

I was making the point that the number, diversity and density of amenities in a high-density, mixed use community is extremely difficult to get anywhere in the suburbs. The density and land use pattern does not create a market to support it in the suburbs. The residential density in the downtown means that numerous different types of amenities can be supported because the captured market is larger. Sure, there are places in the suburbs that have some amenities near by, but never close to the amount of them and the different types of them found in the downtown. Someone living close to Chinook has a lot of retail stores and restaurants to choose from, but no grocery stores or liquor stores.

I can't think of a grocery store, but here is the liquor store:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...2,90.1,,0,6.13

And I am pretty sure you can buy ski's and snowboards in Sport Check in the mall, but if you want a more specialized shop, there is Ski Cellar:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...290.99,,0,1.77

Edit: I just remembered the grocery store. Community Natural Foods. The address is 6120 1A Street SW, but I can't seem to see it on street view, so no link to show it's actual picture.

[Wentworth]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

I can't think of a grocery store, but here is the liquor store:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...2,90.1,,0,6.13

And I am pretty sure you can buy ski's and snowboards in Sport Check in the mall, but if you want a more specialized shop, there is Ski Cellar:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...290.99,,0,1.77

Edit: I just remembered the grocery store. Community Natural Foods. The address is 6120 1A Street SW, but I can't seem to see it on street view, so no link to show it's actual picture.

There's also a Real Canadian Wholesale Club near Chinook, which is essentially a grocery store.

However... I'm not sure this point is worth debating. If you live in the entertainment hub of a city, you are going to be located near more restaurants etc. than if you live in the suburbs. There's really not much to debate there. But we do shockingly little shopping or dining out, so it really doesn't make much of a difference to us. Ah, but we're very conveniently located near a Beaners Fun Cut for kids, bet you don't got one of those in the beltline!

[freeweed]

Yeah, living near restaurants isn't quite a concern when you get to the point where you're cooking for yourself most nights. Although I don't think that was really the point.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by suburb

It is clear that it is possible to have the mix of services required either in the core or in the areas outside of the inner city.

One MAJOR point that most have ignored is that over 80% of Calgary's employment is outside of downtown and that it makes most sense to live close to where you need to be. It would be counter-intuitive to purposefully live in the core paying twice the price per sf of living space, only to have to commute outside of DT every day. I've highlighted before that a mere 150,000 people work in downtown Calgary. Why the heck would all of those folks working at the airport, the industrial parks, the schools, the universities, the hospitals and medical clinics, choose a life of imposed poverty to try and eek out an expensive DT living instead of closer to where they need to be?

Do I need to go over the argument again? Very few people who live outside the core, live close to their work, even if they live near a major employment Centre. I will say it over and over again- people changes jobs more than they change homes. Living in the suburbs rarely solves this problem. You may live close to work now, but wait 3 years when you change jobs.

And PS- A "mere" 150K ppl working downtown equates to one of the largest downtown employment concentrations in all North America. Cities 3 times our size barely have the downtown office space we do. Our downtown even rivals places like LA.

[fusili]

Anyways, this discussion is getting tiresome. The point I was making is that suburbs and urban neighbourhoods offer different things for different people. Urban Neighbourhoods=Lots of amenities within walking distance. Suburbs=Open Space, Privacy, Larger homes. I like my urban neighbourhood because I value amenities within walking distance more than tons of open space, privacy of the size of my home. Others have different priorities.

I was making the point that amenities are the draw of my neighbourhood, and it does that better than any other area in Calgary. It is a hard argument to make that the area around Chinook offers better amenities than the area around 8th and 17th in the Beltline. And as an urban resident, comparing living beside a mall is a big stretch to living beside 17th avenue. They just aren't the same. Would anyone compare living next to West Edmonton Mall to living in downtown Manhattan?

[suburb]

Originally Posted by fusili

Very few people who live outside the core, live close to their work, even if they live near a major employment Centre.

I graduated 16 years ago and have never worked in DT.

Originally Posted by fusili

And PS- A "mere" 150K ppl working downtown equates to one of the largest downtown employment concentrations in all North America.

That is irrespective and a silly attempted straw man. It is like suggesting that since Montreal is one of the largest French cities in the world, everyone in Canada should move to Quebec. Well - most people don't work in Montreal nor need to be there for any other reason - so it would be rather idiotic to move there. If you land a job in the new South hospital, it would be idiotic to live in DT.

Fact is, a vast majority of people never need to or want to be anywhere close to DT.

[suburb]

Originally Posted by fusili

Anyways, this discussion is getting tiresome. <snip> Suburbs=Open Space, Privacy, Larger homes.

What is getting tiresome is your continued misrepresentation and absolute biased posting. Making 50% of all posts on this thread doesn't make your "with us or against us" arguments any stronger.

For the record, I'm all for walkable neighborhoods with medium to high level density nodes structured around thoughtful transit hubs - all in complement of substantial density over an inner city that goes a pinch beyond our current downtown.

[kw5150]

For some people, living in the inner city in a condo saves them thousands of dollars per year. This is a good thing. Walking everywhere also keeps them in shape.

Yes I realize not everyone works in the core..........but if you live in the core and dont work in the core, you STILL WIN because you usually go against traffic in the morning .....and on the way home. This means that while you are going to work outside the core, you are usually watching everyone else stuck in traffic and have a whole bunch of open lanes to yourself.

I have not been in rush hour for 6 years and my life could not be better.

I also dont have to deal with those clusterfuck urban sprawl shopping centres where it always seems like a competition to get in and out of.

If I want to go to chinook, south centre, crowfoot town centre I can take the train. My car only pulls out of the parkade to go get larger items. If I need a pickup for even larger items, I rent one and make sure I coordinate a bunch of shopping that day.

There is an endless amount of shopping in the core.....and seriously, it is not as busy down here.

Im sure there are reasons to like the suburbs as well but I am just not in that frame of mind yet. Maybe I will live out there when I am 60 but I seriously doubt it.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by fusili

Yup, while I do appreciate the debate sometimes, I think at some point we should just let each other live the lives we want to live. Freeweed, for example, would never want to live in my 850 ft2 condo downtown with very little storage space, and I wouldn't want to live anywhere where I can't walk to a ton of shops in 5 minutes. And I have no idea why that is a bad thing.

Originally Posted by suburb

I agree that no one needs to convince others, but at the same time we need to be fair and honest. The low ball in your post above is the suggestion that anywhere outside of the inner city cannot have a ton of shops within a five minutes walk.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

And just who do you imagine needs to be in walking distance of 1/10th of that?

Originally Posted by fusili

Nobody needs it. But I want it. As do most residents who live in neighbourhoods like this.

Originally Posted by suburb

Any residence within 5 minutes of chinook centre.

Originally Posted by fusili

Not quite- no grocery stores, no liquor stores, no ski shops (that sell actual boards). Those, to me, are necessities.

Originally Posted by suburb

What is getting tiresome is your continued misrepresentation and absolute biased posting. Making 50% of all posts on this thread doesn't make your "with us or against us" arguments any stronger.

Please just refer to the above posts with regards to the "with us or against us arguments" comment you made. If you read them, you will see that I was making the case that people have different personal preferences, and that my particular personal preference is to live near a lot of amenities, including grocery stores and liquor stores (not malls) and I like to live downtown. That is where I like to live. I have no idea why you keep coming back to this. I am talking about my personal preference.


You may want to live somewhere else. I am fine with that.



EDIT- Also make note of my use of "I wouldn't want to live anywhere where ...", "But I want it" and "Those, to me, are necessities." It is clear that I was talking about my personal preferences, I don't know where you got the idea that I wasn't.